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What would you do with a brand new SB Duet?

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Posted on June 21, 2016 at 01:31:20
My name is Fred
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: Sunshine Coast
Joined: May 23, 2013
 I have been using a Duet for maybe 8 years.
I have 3 of the receivers.
One has packed up although I know what's wrong with it.
I run one in the main system using an outboard DAC and one in the kitchen feeding a little T-Amp and a pair of Scandyna Micropods which actually sounds rather pleasant (in the kitchen).
But... I have a brand new Duet (receiver and controller) in its original box, never used sitting in a cupboard where it has been for 4 years.
I bought it in that time where they were outdated by the Touch and not popular any more.
So should I just keep it and use it when one of the others gives up the ghost? Or sell it? Or what?
I have been looking at replacements for the last year or so, but every time I start focusing on one, something else comes along and John Darko gives it a good write up... all in, I've been holding fire waiting for a clear (temporary) winner.
So,where does the smart money go?

All suggestions welcomes and appreciated, even the ones wondering why I am bothering.

 

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RE: What would you do with a brand new SB Duet?, posted on June 21, 2016 at 16:52:00
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 The Duet was only 24/96 capable, so it has some limitations for content compatibility. The SBT was a much better design technically, and provided a far better S/PDIF interface and DAC quality. I'd look at a Duet as a garage or backyard player for background music at this point. Think of it like a Sonos player and not a high-end device. It has bee leapfrogged many time over for highend duty.

 

Since I don't have a Touch..., posted on June 22, 2016 at 12:42:44
My name is Fred
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: Sunshine Coast
Joined: May 23, 2013
 ... and thought the lack of the hand controller rather a step down in convenience, I'm not sure of your point. There is always something better and usually more expensive.
The Duet is easily capable of handling music taken from CDs which is thw vast majority of the files I use and I am certainly not going to buy them again.

 

My Point was, posted on June 22, 2016 at 16:01:02
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 that is doesn't have much market value left if you try to sell it. If it was my unit, I would put it in my kitchen (you already have that one covered), the backyard or the garage. The Duet is not a high-end unit. It has a lackluster analog output with a fair amount of jitter and a high noise-floor and a poorly-implemented S/PDIF output. It is perfectly capable of playing music, from cd or otherwise. You asked what to do with it and you got an answer. If you instead asked what to replace one with in your main system, that would be a different question. But it is fair to say that nobody would suggest another Duet at this point.

FYI, the Duet controller will work with a SBT, which is probably the simplest thing you could put in your main system at the moment that would yield a better digital transport without a larger investment of time and money. So, there is an answer to what else should I look at as a replacement. You can find reasonably-priced SBT's on ebay here in the classifieds and at audiogon periodically as people are starting to move away from the LMS universe.

 

Question., posted on June 22, 2016 at 16:28:57
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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 "people are starting to move away from the LMS universe."

How did you come to this conclusion? Were you aware that: According to a few very vocal Forum Members "The Best Music Streamer/Server on the planet" (MicroRendu) supports LMS?




 

Make that: "The Best Music Streamer/Server on the planet..., posted on June 22, 2016 at 17:09:33
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 for those that have another $1400 for a LPS and are yet to invest in H O R N S !"

If you have H O R N S !, then a SBT will do fine! :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: What would you do with a brand new SB Duet?, posted on June 22, 2016 at 21:14:43
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Joined: January 18, 2002
 Hi Fred,
The Duet analogue output isn't state-of-the-art but pleasant and sounds fine for all but the most revealing systems. Analogue output has low jitter but the noise floor isn't quite capable of >16-bit resolution. This doesn't matter unless the rest of your system is up to spec and you actually have true high-resolution music anyway!

As usual, feel free to connect a good DAC for the analogue output upgrade. Of course it is "limited" to 96kHz, but that's no big deal. I agree the vast majority of albums are CD resolution anyhow. And the majority of "hi-res" albums don't take advantage of 24-bits and >96kHz anyway.

Logitech Music Server remains the workhorse server in my system. Stable, fast, easy to run. No problem.
-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

Not sure there's much point in a Touch, posted on June 23, 2016 at 07:23:19
My name is Fred
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: Sunshine Coast
Joined: May 23, 2013
 I don't use the analogue out so its quality is irrelevant and with a better power supply and interconnecs I don't hear the problem.

 

the point , posted on June 23, 2016 at 09:30:00
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 would be for a better quality S/PDIF implementation and up to 24/192 using EDO if you have hires files. You might be surprised that the Touch could actually sound better used as just a digital transport for your DAC than the Duet. But, it sounds like you are perfectly happy with the Duet, so why not just keep it in the box for when one of your other units fails?

 

CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 09:39:08
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 I frequent the CA forums and it's clear there that people are jumping to JRiver and Roon and leaving LMS behind. Practically, there is one person left doing dev work and a few working on plugins. LMS is reaching its EOL.


I have stopped using LMS altogether myself. While a groundbreaking platform for it's day, it has been usurped in ease of use and, at least for me, sound quality. Once OSX broke my Inguz installation, I had to find other options for using my room correction filters. Roon/HQPlayer work with so much ease. I no longer need to use terminal to make changes and the software updates with much greater simplicity. Indexing is considerably faster, and all of my album art shows up. Finally, the iPhone app is a great deal better than iPeng. I am not the only one that has taken notice of these issues. If it still works for people, that's great. It's free. But it is no longer the standard against which the category is measured and many people want the advancements that are no readily available.

Personally, I think anyone using a server front-end that doesn't at least do a trial Roon is a fool.

 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 09:45:56
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I tried Roon last year and personally did not like the interface. I had some other issues with it also. I believe it could not stream Spotify, but it has been awhile, so I can't remember.



 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 09:53:34
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 Good for you for trying it! Apparently, the lack of Spotify and Pandora support lies with those entities not wanting to release their api's. Roon is a small company and obviously their market share so far is very small and the larger streamers other than Tidal have refused to play nice. So, that is still a distinct advantage of LMS. In my system, I just use mysqueezebox.com to serve Pandora, Tidal, and radios to my squeezeboxen. No need for LMS, since you can synchronize the players through their server and use a web remote or iPeng.

 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 09:54:29
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46297
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I'm in the middle of playing with Roon and the interface is just OK, IMHO. There are simple tasks that I am accustomed to in other players that seem awkward and overly mouse clicky in Roon. I'm still figuring it out.



 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:07:25
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 Roon doesn't do anything I want to do that I can't already do. With SW I "own".

I never look at my "interface device" while listening, I really don't care what it displays after I tell it what to play. I guess I'd care more if I didn't know what I was playing, but I still wouldn't look at it. Usually my eyes are closed, I have a crappy attention span as it is. Regardless, I'm listening not reading.

[Edit: for grammar, just can't get it out right...]

 

"LMS.... it has been usurped in ease of use and, at least for me, sound quality.", posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:19:04
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 LMS has 'No Sound'. It is Control Software. Whether it is controlling a Squeezebox Touch or a MicroRendu or a Raspberry Pi. There is no Sound to LMS. It merely Throws a Switch to the Server/Streamer.



 

Agree........, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:20:28
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I only Judge it based on ease of use. If I want to look at pictures of the Band, I can use Google Image etc.



 

HiRes?, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:26:52
My name is Fred
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: Sunshine Coast
Joined: May 23, 2013
 There seem to be more problems trying to get anything actual HiRes than with the Duet.

 

RE: HiRes?, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:27:42
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 There is plenty to be had now. You just need to be an educated buyer. Same as it ever was caveat emptor.

 

HiRes from performance to your ear?, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:31:43
My name is Fred
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: Sunshine Coast
Joined: May 23, 2013
 Many would disagree with how easy that is to find.

 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:33:10
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46297
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Roon doesn't do anything I want to do that I already can't. With SW I "own".

Just curious to know, what software do you own and use?

I'm still discovering and learning Roon on my 60-day trial period. Haven't made up my mind if I want to buy it.

As a 'visual person' I do look at my remote control interface device (iPad in my case) as I navigate and choose albums, songs, create playlists, and add to the queue.

I also scroll thru the album art rapidly to aid me in finding albums that I want to play. It's often quicker for me that way vs typing as I easily recognize albums by their cover art.

Once I have my selections made, I just sit back and listen. If I get the urge to listen to additional tunes, I'll pickup the iPad and make more selections.

So the visual interaction with the player and ease of navigation are very important to me. Otherwise, why bother with the convenience of computer based audio in the first place? I'm not one to play the same 1/2 dozen tunes over and over again through a stripped down player just to hear minuscule tweak differences in my setup. Music library management and navigation are hugely important to me.

Just my 2-cents.



 

No, not necessarily true., posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:33:57
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 One of the primary functions of LMS is transcoding. Now as if you listen to nothing but 16/44 PCM and MP3 streams, fine. LMS, when configured appropriately can/will send those in native form. But for most applications SOX is used to transcode, usually to/from FLAC/ALAC. But even transmitting .wav wirelessly is wasteful when you can use FLAC level 5 and the SB will decode it. SOX does have a sound. Each filter choice in it is a decision on someone's part regarding sonics and although many choices can be toggled if you know how to code them in the customconfig file, I gather that most people excpet the opensource/UNIX nerds bother. I did some of that to implement my Inguz and it was a major PITA.

 

RE: CA, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:46:21
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 I'm using iPeng.

Yes, I am also very visual when choosing my music, I certainly do often pick by the album pic, that is from within an artist's albums. But that's when adding to the playlist, or choosing the album to play.

After that, I don't really look at the display, except to see what's next. I mean, I don't need any more info. Sometimes I check to make sure I'm playing the version of the album I want when adding to the playlist, if they have the same pic.

But during playing, I'm not looking at the gear or interface device. I don't need suggestions or lyrics (used to get that anyway) or other stuff, I tagged my FLACs with what I might need/want to know.

 

A "use" case:, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:53:49
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 Using LMS, if you have multiple cd collections, say Billy Joel's Greatest Hits Vol I&II, the LMS server will capture up all of it in one set (sometimes). I often experienced problems with multiple versions in my library, sometimes inexplicably, one or two sings would have different tag data and would not be incorporated into one album. If I wanted to have a multi-cd set more easily accesible via the menus I would have to load them as separate albums. The larger my collection got, the harder is was to manage those outliers.

I always loved the ability to set up a playlist in LMS with selections from my own library mixed with individual tracks from Tidal/Spotify/MOG/Rhapsody (I used them all at one point or another). No other server software made that as easy as LMS. Until Roon. Now, Roon does the tagging for me. When I am building a playlist, I can easily find tracks in my own collection, as well as on Tidal with one search and add it. Roon will combine multi-cd sets for easier visual browsing, but also shows the collections on separate "sheets" so you can still browse all the tracks by cd: i.e., cd1 cd2, etc. Roon shows when you have multiples of a track and lets you toggle between the versions. At this point I have over 2500 albums and more than 29000 tracks in my collection. That amount of content is better served by the additional graphical content and metadata available in Roon than by using a simple list format like LMS. The more you use the interface in Roon, the more you appreciate what it can do to help you select music. If you always just pick an album, cue it up and play it like an LP or a cd, maybe you wont appreciate the power of Roon. Personally, I like to read the liner notes and always did. But for listening, I usually do just listen with no media device except to control playback.

My prediction is that Abe will be the next to fall; you wait, in another month he'll start singing the praises of Roon. Like all new paradigms, it takes awhile to adjust. For those that keep crustily protesting without actually trying to use the software, you are only limiting yourselves.

 

RE: A "use" case:, posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:59:22
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 You have way more tunes than I do, I only have in the 10k range.

But funny you should mention the multi-disc set or "different version" things. Maybe we crossed-posted or cross-thought, but I agree that it takes some...experience...to get LMS to do that the way you want. It *is* doable with appropriate tagging/LMS setup, but definitely not exactly transparent/obvious. Because, you know how excellent the LMS documentation and in-app "help" is...

I'm just not a sophisticated user I guess. I only want to select and play *my* owned albums/tunes, if I want to read the notes or LP covers for some reason, I pull them. When I stream, it is background, and I'm usually in and out of the room and barely care what's playing, usually. I do notice if I like it or it sounds good though.

 

RE: A "use" case:, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:01:52
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Actually my favorite use of LMS was with 'Smartmix' (A pluggin)... It has quit working this month due to Spotify purchasing TEN.... They eliminated the API use for TIDAL and others....

Does Roon have anything like Smartmix? -- It was how I listened on a Daily basis. But I guess even if Roon had a Smartmix, not being able to stream Spotify would probably be a Show Stopper.




 

I am a fan, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:05:21
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 of LMS and championed it for years. I bought my first SB3 in 2006, then had a Transporter and eventually 3 more SBTs. All are still in service here. I've used it and tweaked it and loaded skins for a Nokia N800 used as a remote among other things over the years, which at the time predated the iphone and any other mobile control for a music server. It was state-of-the-art. But it just isn't anymore.

Roon is where it's at. And will be going forward. And it is $10/month annually, which is less than some people pay for Netflix.

 

Radio, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:10:54
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 It is the current auto-playlist. It looks at your collection and makes selections a track at a time. I haven't checked to see if they got it working with your tidal selections yet, but that was on their to-do list. You can se an auto-leveling so that you don't have large changes in volume when the Radio function is on. I expect them to be improving it over the next year, as there is a lot of demand. It is interesting to look at the Roonlabs community forum where they have a "requested features" section. FWIW, you can join the forum without even purchasing a license to the product. I did before I bought an annual subscription. I didn't have an extra $500 in January. But I will buy a lifetime membership sometime this year.

 

RE: Radio, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:24:16
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46297
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
I have yet to play with the Roon Radio feature. Do they simply link to various internet radio stations? Do they try to choose higher bit-rate stations? The audio quality of internet radio is usually not very good. Your thoughts on it as it relates to Roon? Thanks Paul.



 

RE: I am a fan, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:33:10
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 But Roon doesn't do anything new that I want to do. That is the bottom line. That it isn't limited to a specific type of platform or even listening "style" is its big deal, and will be the reason for much of its popularity.

I would never buy a lifetime subscription to anything. Especially something like this. They'll be owned by somebody else soon enough if they're really that great (as determined by the *real* market, not enthusiasts....see Squeezebox in case studies...), and your "contract" will be essentially worthless. "Lifetime" of the company is what it'll be.

You are as enthusiastic re Roon now as you were re LMS some time ago. That should tell you something. I am "old", so don't mind me, just reminding you of what you already know.

I wasn't trying to infer *you* didn't know LMS, I was being tongue in cheek, it is typical of lots of Logitech stuff re virtually useless documentation beyond the absolute beginner level.

 

Two functions, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:39:26
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 "Internet Radio" in the menu lets you add urls to your favorite Internet stations. I have several SOMAFM stations, KPLU and KEXP. The metadata provided by the station doesn't linkback to the Roon servers on those, so there are no hyperlinks to read about the artists as the radio station plays but you can see song/title info. The advantage here is that you can get MP3 streams into Roon and out through HQPlayer and you have to do your own searching/selection. They don't have a menu of suggestions. It is largely a courtesy functionality requested by the community.

The "Roon Radio" function is like Pandora. It looks at various metadata associated with your collection and chooses selections to play if your playlist is empty. It is turned on by default, but is easily toggled off. You can use up-down thumb to teach the program as you go. So far the Radio function is limited to your own collection, although future Tidal integration is a priority for them. I use it sometimes and it works fine. Nothing shocking has come up so far like the death metal I got on "Beat It" radio on Pandora. You can use Tidal automated playlists using the Tidal screen from the menu. If you want curated music in a genre, it works pretty well. Dinner Jazz, etc.

 

Honestly, the best thing, posted on June 23, 2016 at 15:46:44
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 is that it provides a very usable front-end for HQPlayer. That is my primary reason for using it, because HQP really does sound better than anything else I've used. And by a long-measure. It makes some older cds I used to think unlistenable absolute treats. One example: Bruce Hornsby & the Range, The Way it Is. Flat, strident and nearly unlistenable for all those years.

I take your point about the lifetime sub; in this case its a gamble against will I buy more than 4 annual subs or just make one $500 purchase. If the company lasts more than 5 years, I saved money.

 

RE: Honestly, the best thing, posted on June 24, 2016 at 12:34:19
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 Thanks for being reasonable to different POVs (no small thing sometimes...).

I am sure very many people have very many excellent reasons for using Roon. I just don't happen to be one of those people. I don't do any transcoding (only native format [via FLAC] of my own discs), and am anal about tagging and bloat my FLACs with info (sometimes pics) I might want to know/see, tag stuff my own way so *I* can find it in my own strange way, etc. Maybe when I have a DAC that can play all the fancier formats I'll have a different opinion...

And being in Canada, the U.S. disc covers are often not the same as those here, and I often pick by the cover I'm used to (I scan all the covers myself to make sure). Plus I often have different disc versions of the same title and the ones I want to play are often quite obscure, hard to find any info even at discogs = manual entry for a large part.

 

RE: No, not necessarily true., posted on June 24, 2016 at 16:26:34
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I can unplug my squeezebox from my network and it will continue to play for 30 seconds without LMS.... So transcoding would actually have to be different format to make a difference. The squeezebox has a buffer and is not dependent on LMS. I'm not buying it.



 

RE: No, not necessarily true., posted on June 24, 2016 at 18:14:26
PaulN
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Joined: January 13, 2000
 Well we can debate, but it really doesn't matter. LMS was designed as a thin client device, and that is where the name comes from "slim devices." In computer parlance that means that all the important things happen at a server and the "dumb" or "thin" client device just does the most basic functions like receiving and interfacing. Pretty much all music server software is designed this way: database access, DSP or other processing and serving take place at the server computer and the end-point, or thin client just accepts the data being served.

The Sueezeboxes can work without LMS altogether if they are connect to mysqueezebox.com , which then provides the server functions. For a limited number of cases, such as Internet radio and music streamers like Pandora, the squeezebox can make a direct link to a remote streaming server and does not require mysqueezebox or LMS, although sometimes the connection must be made through a server first.

Anyway, none of it is particulaly important. If you are happy, keep sailing. I am about to cue up a Friday night playlist with Roon and enjoy a weekend without a wife to bother me. I have beverages and food ready to go.

 

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