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A potential new "game-changer"

108.169.2.66
Posted on April 26, 2016 at 11:49:07
Sordidman
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Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Computer in the basement, - USB DAC connected directly to your LAN

Built in Galvanic isolation, no need for expensive USB cables, Regens, or Intona devices...

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

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RE: A potential new "game-changer", posted on April 26, 2016 at 12:40:35
Roseval
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Posts: 1845
Joined: March 31, 2008
 There are a couple of companies making this type of product both over Ethernet and fibre


The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: A potential new "game-changer", posted on April 26, 2016 at 13:37:06
Sordidman
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Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Thank you.

Should've remembered that you and your site would be all over this.

I knew about the Corning cable, (forgot that you could order it female to male): and the Icron. In addition to the Startech there's the Aten, and the Longen.
One just has to be careful if they want to add to their LAN with switches, etc. Risking possible damage for some of the (cheaper) non-LAN-compatible ones...

These will be getting more attention very soon

Thanks again.




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Kinda funny..., posted on April 26, 2016 at 14:15:03
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...since the $600 StarTech solution you linked to is far more expensive than any of the other devices you mentioned as being expensive. But another potential solution none the less. A game changer? Doubt it.

Built in Galvanic isolation, no need for expensive USB cables, Regens, or Intona devices...

 

It's $479, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:09:02
Sordidman
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Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 And......

(Possibly) replaces any number of devices, (up to, and including a computer), at the audio rack....

For those with an USB DAC, - it could mean moving their computer far away, and/or not buying an NAA.

A Regen and Intona would cost more.

Not for you, or me.





"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Says $599.99 USD here, posted on April 26, 2016 at 19:33:20
AbeCollins
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Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 $599.99 according to the link you posted per the webpage that comes up when I click on it.

Not sure I'd go for a product that converts USB to Ethernet protocol UNLESS the goal was to specifically separate the DAC from the PC by a ridiculous distance.... which is not the goal of a Regen or Intona product. For isolation AND distance I'd go optical. But UNLESS distance is the primary goal I think Regen or Intona like devices make much more sense.

Webpage screen shot from the link you provided as it comes up on my system




 

Amazon, posted on April 26, 2016 at 20:47:46
Sordidman
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Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Many optical cables have copper that carry 5v power along the cable rendering not galvanically isolated

The goal is to eliminate boxes, and get the noisy computer out and away from the audio system, as well as to provide galvanic isolation. During the conversion process of the receiver, it likely (not sure) provides a much cleaner "new" USB signal than a computer bus.

These also are being looked at by a major audio gear manufacturer and something similar will be coming out by them, renamed, with their brand.







"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

network players, posted on April 26, 2016 at 23:25:49
Tom Schuman
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Location: Bremen
Joined: October 22, 2003
 even my $80 pioneer universal (CD/SACD/bluray) player has a network input and a USB slot for a memory stick. I can play music files on the usb input, and files from any networked hard drive.
Makes me laugh that people are spending €500 or more for aftermarket power supplies for USB converters (!!!), USB cables, and other USB to SPDIF converters.
the linked product also seems overpriced for what it is.

 

" Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 26, 2016 at 23:30:59
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi !
i have the feeling that the Galvanic isolation from the pc is very beneficial.
And i have a question about this topic.

Does the use of an ethernet cable give automatically Galvanic isolation ?

because the idea is to try a simple usb extender over ethernet just for that, to get Galvanic isolation.
Thanks a lot for the interesting link.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 27, 2016 at 02:51:36
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1845
Joined: March 31, 2008
 A cable never provides galvanic isolation unless disconnected or broken :)

Galvanic isolation is part of the Ethernet standard, see post 3
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/27756/why-are-ethernet-rj45-sockets-magnetically-coupled

Do observe that the extender is a kind of mini computer.
The DAC is of course not galvanic isolated from the extender.
Now if the extender emits some dirty power......

The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 27, 2016 at 04:13:38
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks for the kind reply but i do not understand

" A cable never provides galvanic isolation unless disconnected or broken :)
Galvanic isolation is part of the Ethernet standard, "

i see a contraddiction ... let me rephrase a little.
I have just bought a pair of cheap ethernet usb extenders on ebay.com for curiosity.
If i connect my usb dac with these two usb to ethernet adapters and a ethernet cable in between the dac will be galvanically isolated from the pc or not ?
I guess that the senders take power from usb while the receiver is passive ?
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

Ps Audio video , posted on April 27, 2016 at 04:34:53
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi !
i do not know if it is a similar product.
It sounds very interesting indeed.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 27, 2016 at 05:06:53
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 Galvanic isolation seems to be folklore as a cure all in computer audio setups. The real position is much more complex because of the many possible multiground connections in such systems.

Other important factors are:

signal integrity (which includes ground issues)

lack of reflections affecting signal transfer (which includes impedance matching)

jitter caused by various clocking devices.

Galvanic isolation involves the use of transformers, chip type capacitative isolators and or optical isolators which have their own jitter, interface, and powering issues.

The important thing appears to me to be the competent integration of isolation, relocking and signal integrity assurance measures before the signal goes into a dac.

It is wrong to say that dacs can be designed for twopence to avoid issues caused by interface characteristics.

 

RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 27, 2016 at 05:19:13
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1845
Joined: March 31, 2008
 the dac will be galvanically isolated from the pc or not ?

I'm not familiar with this product.
Hence I can't tell you if it complies with the Ethernet standard or not.
The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: network players, posted on April 27, 2016 at 05:38:37
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Hey, if you're not buying a bunch of expensive stuff, you're not really an audiophile.

I'm still happily using my Squeezebox Touch into my DAC. I'll wait until the dust settles, before I do anything different.



 

RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation ", posted on April 27, 2016 at 06:08:36
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks for the very valuable advice.
Maybe i am wrong but however a reclocking always happens at dac level with usb asynchronous transmission.
Maybe the quality of the usb signal reaching the xmos receiver can have an impact.
I am only sure that electrical isolation from the pc is mandatory.
I am playing with a simple usb isolator and the sound cleans up a lot because my present device, an Aune x1s, needs power in the usb port (very sad).
So final jitter actually is related to the quality of dac internal clock.
I am sure that if a usb dac is very well designed and built the pc upstream has to be only decent. The secret is in the usb dac.
Or in the usb to spdif converter. The better they are the less dependent from the pc source.
If the usb interface is not top i am sure devices like the Regen could be very beneficial.
Maybe i am wrong.
Kind regards,
bg

 

This product is not an "audio" product, posted on April 27, 2016 at 07:24:02
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .But of course, there are certain levels of performance that are not worth paying for, depending on one's viewpoint.





"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 07:29:04
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Of these low speed converters. They cannot be used on a LAN and could potentially damage sensitive network equpment, and they also may or may not have the speed to support the USB 2 480mps throughput... The reason why the ones I linked to are $500+ retail is because they are LAN gigabit supported and can operate off of switches, and are very fast.

Cheers,


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Amazon, posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:53:11
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46291
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 $479 via Amazon is still more than the REGEN or Intona, or both combined.

Many optical cables have copper that carry 5v power along the cable rendering not galvanically isolated

And there are those that don't. Some use OM2 or OM3 multimode fiber with duplex LC connections which have no copper wire at all, purely optical from end to end.

The goal is to eliminate boxes, and get the noisy computer out and away from the audio system, as well as to provide galvanic isolation.

Considering the fact that many systems sound wonderful w/o all the add-ons and separation I agree that the Rube Goldberg approach of additional boxes are a bit extreme. One of my DACs benefited ever so slightly with a basic USB Isolator but it wasn't night and day.

During the conversion process of the receiver, it likely (not sure) provides a much cleaner "new" USB signal than a computer bus.

Provides "much cleaner new" USB signal is probably too optimistic unless there was something marginal with the USB signal to begin with.... which is more likely the case over great distances. Over a short run, galvanic isolation is probably the larger benefit and can be achieved with less extreme measures than Ethernet. In some cases, the DACs themselves incorporate true galvanic isolation and no reliance on USB +5VBus (as does the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC and others).

These also are being looked at by a major audio gear manufacturer and something similar will be coming out by them, renamed, with their brand.

Yes, I've been aware of this for a while. In fact, the local club was there for a demo last Saturday:

--------------------------------------------------------

Place: PS Audio
When: Saturday, April 23rd starting at 2:00 PM
Where: 4826 Sterling Drive Boulder, Colorado 80301 720.406.8946

The CAS had a very special time last year (2015) when PS Audio shared the BHK 250 Signature Amplifier. What a treat, Bascom H. King, Arnie Nudell and Paul McGowan. This was truly a special treat and I believe everyone had a wonderful time sharing in this event.

We are in for another treat (or maybe two) in 2016!

Many of the CAS members have digital players and many of us use USB as a connection. PS Audio has a 'crazy' new USB cleanup device that Paul would like to talk about and demonstrate to the CAS.

Paul also wants to talk about their new preamp and transport. I have a question to pose to everyone. Is a DAC straight into the amplifier better or worse than inserting a preamp into the mix? What is your belief, experience or thought? Paul has some thoughts that he would like to share about this subject as well.

Also note that we will do our annual CAS officer elections.

Please RSVP to xxxxxxx@aol.com so we get a good count of people. Looking forward to seeing everyone on the 23rd of April at PS Audio.


 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:55:43
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
The idea was to use them only between pc and dac but they are worse that a common isolator.
I wait to read about the other extenders for lan use. Those are the interesting one. Clearly more expensive also.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:05:03
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Yes..

It cost one next to nothing to buy some $35 ones, - put the PC/MAC in the bedroom, - run a CAT6 cable to the "receiver" & on to the DAC. Compare...

Of course either the cheap, or the expensive ones aren't going to be for anyone who uses an NAA.

For someone who is the in market for a Regen or Intona and/or Jitterbug, or is and wants to stick with AudioNirvana, Jriver, or Pure Music, - a device like this will be a reprieve for those programs that can only be used directly from a PC/Mac.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:31:18
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46291
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Ethernet USB Extenders don't necessarily offer USB Isolation properties. Good ones will. Similarly an inexpensive Ethernet USB Extender is unlikely to provide protocol translation but is probably just doing signal level conditioning. Not that protocol translation is necessary in order to achieve the benefits of isolation and signal conditioning... think Regen, Intona, etc.

USB 2 "speed" is not the issue here so you can still experiment with your entry level Ethernet USB Extender if you're willing to. Cable it up and plug in your DAC. Does it play music? Perhaps not well at hi-res rates but does it play basic 44/16 PCM? No harm in playing around with your Extenders, point to point. But if it works, that does not mean it is providing any isolation benefit.

A couple things you can try in order to determine if there's isolation between the two ends:

1) Attach the extenders to each other via Ethernet cable, but leave each USB end unattached. Now with a multimeter (ohm meter) or even a cheapie continuity tester determine if there is continuity or isolation between the two USB connector outer metal housings at each end of the extenders. Your measurement should be DC open circuit, (no connection) between the two USB connector metal housings.

An open circuit would indicate isolation properties between the two metal shield ends. This is a good start if it does in fact measure as open circuit. If there is continuity measured between the two ends, there is no isolation.

You can determine if there's isolation for each data line between each USB end by measuring from PIN 2 to PIN 2 in the same way. And between PIN 3 to PIN 3 in the same way. Measure for continuity from end to end. If it measures open circuit that's a good thing. If not, there is no isolation.

If any of the items above do not measure "open circuit", your Extenders do not offer isolation properties.

2) The other challenge is to determine if VBUS power will be passed via the Ethernet cable, or if they left it open. If these Ethernet USB Extenders are meant to be used only with USB devices that require separate (wall wart) power, they may have left VBUS disconnected.

Again, you can measure PIN 1 to PIN 1 between each USB end. And measure PIN 4 to PIN 4 between each end.

Or, attach a USB device that requires VBUS and see if it works. Attach a USB Keyboard, Mouse, small disk drive, etc. If it works, then they did in fact pass VBUSS over a couple extra Ethernet wires. You can fmak hack off the +5V line at the USB device end (or cover PIN 1 & 4) if your DAC does not require +5Vcc over USB. If it requires +5Vcc you can still hack the +5Vcc line and inject your own clean +5VDC.

Sounds like a hassle to me but if you want to experiment, the steps above should give you some insight into what your Ethernet USB Extender setup is doing.... or not doing.


 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:33:49
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks again very much indeed.
I am trying to learn something but it is a complex topic.
But i have a doubt, The Ethernet cable carries only signals ore also power like a usb cable ?
because in this case i could need a receiver with a dc socket to provide power to the usb dac.
It is not clear to me.
Thanks a lot again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:43:54
AbeCollins
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Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 The Ethernet cable carries only signals or also power like a usb cable ?
because in this case i could need a receiver with a dc socket to provide power to the usb dac.

See my comments above on how to determine this for your Ethernet USB Extender.


 

RE: Amazon, posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:01:48
SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012
 Did your club have any feedback on the LanRover, does it improve things as much as Paul says ?
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:14:48
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very complete and helpful directions.
Clearly i was thinking wrongly.
I thought it were a signal only cable. How sad.

"attach a USB device that requires VBUS and see if it works"
yes i have a dac that needs power from usb to work.
What impresses me is that much longer connections are possible with Ethernet cables than with usb.
This suggests me of an intrinsically superior design.
How can i understand if an extender provides isolation before buying it ? are they very expensive ?
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Amazon, posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:19:10
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46291
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
I wasn't there to experience it myself but some folks did hear an improvement. The problem with these tests is that you're "primed" or "coached" to hear improvements. Even here on the Asylum, with inmate agendas and group think.

I'd have to try one for myself, in my home, on my own system, with my usual cautious skepticism.


 

RE: Amazon, posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:29:18
SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012
 thanks, will be interesting to know if there is anything behind the claims.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:31:40
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46291
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
How can i understand if an extender provides isolation before buying it ? are they very expensive ?

You can't really, unless the manufacturer provides detailed features and specs for isolation. Some that target audiophiles won't even do that. And keep in mind, "Extender" does not imply "Isolation".

Unless you need to move your USB DAC a great distance from the source, an "Extender" is not necessary.




 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:35:53
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Thanks a lot again.
I tend to like rj45 link better than usb. Also the connector looks better and with the locking mechanism.
Anyway i will try out.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 27, 2016 at 13:15:14
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001



Hi Beppe,

Think of it this way. There is a sender and a receiver. The (USB powered) sender takes the USB signal and converts it from powered USB to the unpowered OSI model TCP/IP packet delivery protocol. Then there is an (ac-Powered, 5v DC output) Receiver on the other end that converts the TCP/IP protocol to an isolated, cleaner, "new" USB signal.

After that, one can add their USB to SPDIF converter, - or plug directly into their USB DAC.

The advantage to this, besides getting a "new," purer, isolated, USB signal, - is that it can be plugged into any RJ45 port on your network: so you can move your DAC/stereo easily all around the home, or keep your computer in your basement, - or in your attic, - (where it belongs).

Those other devices, are more like USB extenders, that change/convert the cabling to the better separated individual strands of RJ45 cable, but still keep the USB signal intact with power, to extend it. These do not have the bandwidth of the former.

I would speculate that some of these "powered" non-lan, non-gigabit, cheaper adapters would cause much harm to LAN switches that use unpowered TCP/IP...

NOTICE the warning on this Extron Extender pic above: it is not one of the more expensive devices that PS-Audio and I are talking about.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: A potential new "game-changer", posted on April 27, 2016 at 17:46:17
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Sordidman:

Thanks for the post.

Confused about one thing..what is the advantage of this over a similarly priced streamer which accepts Ethernet and outputs USB to your DAC?

I am at a bit of a loss.

If you ask me would I like this, or a similarly priced Micro Rendu...no contest.

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 28, 2016 at 05:53:58
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot again for the very kind and valuable advice.

" Hi Beppe, Think of it this way. There is a sender and a receiver. The (USB powered) sender takes the USB signal and converts it from powered USB to the unpowered OSI model TCP/IP packet delivery protocol. "

This is a key point. I would like a Sender that takes only the "signal portion" off the usb port and not the power, and using instead power from an external ps for its functioning.
Moreover, if i understand well Tx is the sender and Rx the receiver ?

" Then there is an (ac-Powered, 5v DC output) Receiver on the other end that converts the TCP/IP protocol to an isolated, cleaner, "new" USB signal. "

If i understand correctly the Sender converts the usb signal to TCP/IP and the Receiver convert again the TCP/IP to usb ? i have to try and listen. The fact that Ethernet connections are recommended for longer distances i guess should mean something, like a more robust signal ?

" After that, one can add their USB to SPDIF converter, - or plug directly into their USB DAC.
The advantage to this, besides getting a "new," purer, isolated, USB signal, - is that it can be plugged into any RJ45 port on your network: so you can move your DAC/stereo easily all around the home, or keep your computer in your basement, - or in your attic, - (where it belongs). "

i am much more interested to the 1st point, the quality of the signal.
But i am sure that we will see some development on this topic.
I trust Ps Audio boss completely. If he says that it sounds great it must sound really great. I understand he is talking of another kind of device but i am willing to try something cheaper in the meantime.

" Those other devices, are more like USB extenders, that change/convert the cabling to the better separated individual strands of RJ45 cable, but still keep the USB signal intact with power, to extend it. These do not have the bandwidth of the former.
I would speculate that some of these "powered" non-lan, non-gigabit, cheaper adapters would cause much harm to LAN switches that use unpowered TCP/IP...
NOTICE the warning on this Extron Extender pic above: it is not one of the more expensive devices that PS-Audio and I are talking about "

i will look for this Extron model. I have one of the cheap ones and they work but i did not listen carefully. As you say they could do more harm than good to the signal.
Thanks a lot again.


Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:07:19
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi !

before your advice i have already bought this one here.
Sadly i see now that the Sender (the unit close to the pc) uses indeed the usb power, while the Receiver has its own power supply.
However i will try it anyway and listen.
As i said my target is a usb dac that i do not move around. So portability is not an issue.
Next step will be a Sender that provide isolation from usb power for sure, like the one you mention.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:40:25
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Hi,

Yeah, all "senders" are USB powered as I understand it. The "receiver" needs to be powered with an AC/DC converter. The thing that you bought might work on your audio rack, or from Direct CAT 5/6 etc.

Just don't connect this to your LAN... As it does not do TCP/IP...

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Yes, you posted one example , posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:52:02
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004






Hi again !

" Hi, Yeah, all "senders" are USB powered as I understand it "
i have found a pair where they are both externally powered. I wonder if this is the only way to get complete isolation from the pc.

" The "receiver" needs to be powered with an AC/DC converter.
The thing that you bought might work on your audio rack, or from Direct CAT 5/6 etc.
Just don't connect this to your LAN... As it does not do TCP/IP... "

i did not do that for sure.
I do not want to destroy anything if possible.
And thanks again for the helpful advice.
Kind regards,
bg

 

I don't think that the Extron is what you want, posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:55:30
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 I posted this pic, only to illustrate that this is a BAD device and does not do one may want, and why these "cheaper" devices are not good.

"Don't connect to your LAN"

It is not certain that the "sender" converts the USB signal to TCP/IP and then creates a "new" USB signal at the receiver when the TCP/IP protocol is converted back to USB.

So, if your concern is the SIGNAL, this box may not help you at all.....

This device is expensive, and the ASIC process drives up the cost. Abe is right in that it's more expensive than a Regen plus Intona. But, it MAY alleviate the purchase of an expensive USB cable to the DAC, and/or you get the incredible benefit of moving a noisy computer far away from your audio rack: or alleviating the need for an NAA and/or allow you to continue using a program like AudioNirfana/Pure Music

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 07:10:55
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 If it doesn't say "LAN, gigabit" anywhere on the device, - chances are that it's not an ASIC device that converts the signal to TCP/IP, and then converts that back to USB.

Any device cheaper than $500 is likely NOT going to do the above, and likely not going to give you complete isolation. In order to provide that kind of isolation, the device must strip away the USB power, convert the USB signal to a different protocol, - then convert it back, (thereby generating a "new" USB signal).

Cheers,


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 08:51:50
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks again. Message received.
Only the more complex and then expensive devices give what needed.
I will stick with usb then and some sort of isolation.
No more cheap boxes.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A potential new "game-changer", posted on April 28, 2016 at 09:24:27
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 The big advantage is like using a super long USB cable that doubles as a Regen & Intona to "clean up" and generate a PC/MACs USB signal.

Better for folks who have USB DACs, and who really like using JRiver/Audionirvana/Pure Music/Amarra etc. Those programs are "dead men walking" otherwise, as they can't work with NAAs.

For someone who wants to use Roon, or likes the built-in player software with their streamer, or uses LMS, - they will need a NAA,or if someone is happy NOT modifying their computer, or likes lots of boxes coming off their computer, this product wouldn't be for them.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 09:25:46
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Cheers....

I don't know how much PSAudio will "re-engineeer" the boxes by StarTech, but I suspect that the "LanRover" will not be cheaper....

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 09:40:49
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Very likely but if it is really that good ...
What is amazing is that today is possible to find good 2nd laptop for 150 USD ... with the addition of a nice little SSD and SW the source is almost ready. And also extremely flexible and reliable.
However the Usb connection can be a problem.
When i read about the importance of the cable, the impact of the length, the need of isolation and reclocking ... i really start to doubt that it is the right standard for the purpose.
But i am not an expert.
Kind regards.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A potential new "game-changer", posted on April 28, 2016 at 10:11:01
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Thank you. That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 10:54:49
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001



I totally agree with you.....

My Universal Player only has a SPDIF/COAX input and I love its sound and can't afford to get rid of it. I also can't afford a Signature Rendu, - so I'm going to convert USB to SPDIF with this....





"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 11:10:09
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
I know it. Are you using it ?
sorry if i missed it but how it is connected to your pc ?
any isolator/usb power supply/regenerator in between ?

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 14:37:13
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Hiya....

It arrived today, - got a metal "project box." I'll drill two holes in either side for the female USB input and the other side for the COAX.

It'll just sandwich in between the microRendu and my Universal player.

Cheers,


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 28, 2016 at 23:45:25
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi !
i do not want to stress you but what is the "Universal Player" ?
I have found instead info about this ...

http://www.microrendu.sonore.us/

very interesting device.
Still i would like to read something about that Universal Player.
Thanks a lot indeed.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 29, 2016 at 09:16:50
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001



Hi,

My system is a tubed APL Universal player that plays DVD-A, DVD-V, SACD, redbook CDs, etc. It has a built-in "H-attenuator" so it's a limited pre-amp as it has a SPDIF coax digital input on the back.

Other universal players are the Sony, Oppo, Yamaha, all made players that do DVD, SACD, CD etc.... S

So, - I need an external USB to SPDIF converter that will be the F-1 XMOS XU208 "bridge." The microRendu will replace the Mac Mini and and will run LMS, Roon, MiniMserver....

I was using a HiFace USB to SPDIF converter previously.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Here's a good rule of thumb, posted on April 29, 2016 at 14:19:16
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot again for the kind reply
Nice thing to have a digital input on the player.
There are some integrated sources that have excellent DA stage.
But usually only digital outs are provided.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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