USB Accessory Roundup

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 20, 2015 at 07:46:05
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Excellent! Thanks.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 20, 2015 at 09:10:25

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

Nice comparo. Thanks for posting!

On my TeraDAK LPS > Mac Mini > Audiarvana Plus >
AQ Carbon > REGEN > PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC....

I'll post my impressions after I've had more time with it.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 20, 2015 at 09:36:22
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	"I'll post my impressions after I've had more time with it." Me too!

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 20, 2015 at 09:52:05
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	Me three. The Regen does make a clear improvement. Had it for a week and find it worthwhile. Michael's comments make perfect sense. I hope this helps to give people some perspective, as many seem to get things like this rather confused when it comes to system upgrades and value.

Great, posted on August 20, 2015 at 15:06:03
Dynobot	I'm about to have a Gadget clearing house. Audiogd DI V3 w/separate power supply iFi USB power [the good one] M2Tech HiFaceII Sotm Sata filter

Have you ever thought of posting a Recommended Components list to this forum?, posted on August 20, 2015 at 21:40:42

Jaundiced Ear

It will likely just be water off this duck's back, but I'm sure other inmates would be interested. While you're at it, could you also post a list of Unrecommended components? Things that simply don't work or that are not worth the asking price? I don't think you realize how much that would add to your credibility for us skeptics. Most audio reviews remind me of the arithmetical errors you routinely find among wait staff when your bill is presented to you. Now, if they were random errors you would expect to find some in favor of the establishment and others in favor of the customer. However, in my many years of patronizing public establishments, and although I've often caught errors in bills presented to me, I can not ever remember being presented with a bill that had an error in my favor.

JE

RE: Have you ever thought of posting a Recommended Components list to this forum?, posted on August 20, 2015 at 22:09:01
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	"I can not ever remember being presented with a bill that had an error in my favor. " Typical twisted paranoia... Everyone is out to get you... Has happened several times to me, people can make errors in your favor also. Always told the person and corrected the check. If you are so worried about paying the check... Just dine and dash...

RE: Have you ever thought of posting a Recommended Components list to this forum?, posted on August 20, 2015 at 22:16:00
Jaundiced Ear	You are missing the point: audio review sites would be more credible if they also published reports on technological misfires. Why should people pushing jokes on the public get a pass? Who is more important to the review sites, the readers or the folks who send them gear to review? JE

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 20, 2015 at 23:00:09

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

This guy could write much better articles if he'd know what issues he's talkin about. He's running his show on a quite simplistic (let's better say : unprofessional) trial and error basis.

He's even misleading people. Not a word about that "his" findings apply
to his setup only. Some people might take his new rating scheme for granted.

Beside that I have the strange feeling that he picks up forum talk and makes articles (business) out of it. (I mean he openly admits to sneak around here and there). Unfortunately he won't quote people
who report different results, e.g. that filters can make things worse or doesn't have any effect resp. neglectable effects.

######
And btw: Didn't the forum admins tell you not to refer to your employer anymore??

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RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 00:58:26

fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002

I wouldn't attack the guy like this. He is the first to post a 'reasoned' comparison.

I do agree that the review is a little light, but this is the nature of Audio Stream.

It is well known that interfaces create signal integrity problems and the usb interface is rather prone and so the Uptone claims are credible. As for balming the DAC instead of the interface, where is the egg and where is the chicken?

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 01:40:50

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

Come on.

You, as I, know since years, that is is just about all kind of noise and data jitter. We all know since years that USB hubs in between were a good way to improve the USB performance. USB filters and isolators are also known since years. The SOTM PCI card basically is nothing else then the
Regen and is around for years. What's the (new) issue here!?!?

Let's talk about DACs.

There is' no chicken or egg problem. The noise and jitter is there.
You won't ever be able to manage the transport (upstream) based noise (you might buy 20 jitterbugs (noisebugs to be exact) for all USB ports. And you're still not done. It's just too complex.
As you probably read - we can vastly expand noise and jitter discussions to networks and related equipment. Things are getting worse.

Bottom line.

It's IMO best and easiest to address the issues at one place: Inside the DAC.

If you look at many DACs you'll find XMOS implementations according to data-sheet. They do some very basic filtering only. No wonder that the
mess creeps in all over the place. Some more advanced DACs isolate and even reclock - after the XMOS on I2S. That's often still not sufficient.

I think the recipe (or direction) to fight the mess should be clear by now.
Though I'm wondering if the industry is really interested to fight the subject.
The whole transport, accessory and audiophile software business would go down the drain.

However.
At least the manufacturers should buy a Regen or Two to find out if their devices sufficiently cope with jitter and noise. And if not -- do something about it.

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RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 02:20:23

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

One more.

I havn't heard that data/signal integrity - messed up bits/packets/frames - is a real problem on standard quality USB links.
Too much filtering on the link might cause integrity problems. We discussed it.

Talking about "credible".
I know John Svensson (Uptone) - the guy/one of the guys behind Regen. His explanations are - lets put it this way - well written, kind of logical, make sense on the first glance and reflect his experiences.
From a scientific view I can't remember that he substantiates his claims or explanations though. However. They do have a product that works on many DACs - due to whatever reason. And that's what counts.

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RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 03:47:17

Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002

It would appear that many people like the way Michael runs AudioStream. He also contributes to Stereophile.

No, the Bored has never told me not to refer to AudioStream. I have told you many times that I earn my living as a podiatrist. I am not on the AudioStream payroll.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 04:13:24
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	I have told you many times that I earn my living as a podiatrist. Trouble is, when someone sets him or herself up as a one-person Comit� de salut public (Committee of Public Safety), you can tell 'em as often as you like, it'll make no difference. Ignore his prattling. The rest of us do. D

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 04:30:12

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

"It would appear that many people like the way Michael runs AudioStream."

I'm not questioning that. "Many" or "the majority" doesn't have a clue what's going on. They are not even interested to dig deeper into a subject. They follow the crowd. They just want to be entertained.

"He also contributes to Stereophile."

So what? Does this put more substance to his articles?

"I have told you many times that I earn my living as a podiatrist. I am not on the AudioStream payroll."

I know. I think it'll take many more times to make you understand. It's not that easy. A pretty complex subject.
You're an unpaid employee of AudioStream. It doesn't matter if they pay you or not. You belong to that club. By referring to them you do marketing on an open platform. That's not kosher. I'd rather call it impudent.

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RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 04:36:41

Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002

I have never been asked to stop referring to AudioStream except by you.

Perhaps with more effort on your part, you could get me banned from the Asylum.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 05:02:55

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

I do think you're a valuable inmate. Not that I'm a fan of you.
But I think you've got your fanbase.
By doing marketing for your employer, you're IMO crossing a line though.

Why banning?? Just change your attitude. No more "employer-link"-posts.
It shouldn't be such a big challenge.

Take care.

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"That guy"..., posted on August 21, 2015 at 05:11:17
Michael Lavorgna	...said this in the linked article, "I will add that the degree to which these devices will improve the sound of your system will depend on your system."

RE: "That guy"..., posted on August 21, 2015 at 05:23:24
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Klaus has a habit of commenting on reviews without actually reading them in their entirety.

RE: "That guy"..., posted on August 21, 2015 at 06:22:36
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	Klaus has a habit of commenting on reviews without actually reading them . . . I don't know why this thread is reminding me of that bumper (fender?) sticker that reads "Hire a teenager while it still knows everything". But it is. Yours, Lucyphile, honorary chair, Mercman fan club

RE: "That guy"..., posted on August 21, 2015 at 06:33:06
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Lucy appreciates your kind remarks. Lucy will be having her 12th birthday next month.

If the problem is with the USB bus, (transport), posted on August 21, 2015 at 09:54:59
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	Why is it best to address it at the DAC? For years, there have been tremendous sounding non-USB DACs: (in many cases, still better sounding than USB DACs). "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

My 2-cents worth..........., posted on August 21, 2015 at 10:12:34
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 46301 Location: USA Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	Not that you asked, but I don't recall anyone else complaining about the article links that Steve provides. I appreciate them. Just my 2-cents worth. Bye.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 10:22:18

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

It's IMO best and easiest to address the issues at one place: Inside the DAC.

Precisely the point I made a while back but some seemed to think that only makers of external accessories had the secret sauce to address the issues. There ARE DAC manufacturers who DO attack the problems within the DAC and the DACs USB interface.

While the external accessories may be beneficial to some DACs in some systems it is foolish to think that is the only way. I for one prefer less clutter, not more of it.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 11:17:51

Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000

I am sorry, but are you seriously retarded???
What kind of marketing? What employer? What in the world are you talking about you are really stupid! This is such a small community and this is the Internet and it is so easy to find every article and every bit of information that is posted daily there is nothing wrong with anything anyone posts here. The more information the more we can read the better. What is the point of shielding people from information we know it all anyway we are going to read it is just a heads up, it is not any type of marketing or advertising you are a moron.

And if you think it is rather bad that I've called you retarded stupid and a moron on the same post, maybe you're right and hopefully the advertising of your good qualities that I am doing will be read by everyone here and will raise your stock, because we are so in need of your leadership and guidance.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 11:58:51
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Steve, it is enough of him already in regards to this subject. We WANT you to post content form Audiostream. This is not East Germany. Disregard any paranoid rants. Oh damn, that would mean ignoring much of this board!

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 13:49:27
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	My Jitterbug just arrived...fun times ahead.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 13:59:16
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Lucky guy! Mine is still a few weeks away.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup, posted on August 21, 2015 at 14:17:01
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Amazon is your friend!

RE: If the problem is with the USB bus, (transport)-Best Way, posted on August 21, 2015 at 23:45:16
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	There isn't. It is meticulous attention to signal qaulity and power supplies all the way thru' the transport/audio chain. Most commercial dac related hardware including relockers need careful implementation. SQ changes for a dac depend on x factorial elements.

RE: If the problem is with the USB bus, (transport), posted on August 22, 2015 at 08:28:11

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

First you have to assume that there is some tremendous problem that requires fixing. There isn't. Sure, there have been improvements but before we had all these USB add-on accessories do you think people were getting crappy unlistenable results over USB? Of course not! Same for those luxury network cables. Do you think 'network streaming' audio was horrific before those magic network cables hit the scene?

Why is it best to address it at the DAC?

A few possible reasons to consider. Just some thoughts:

- Because the DAC manufacturer has complete control of the design and implementation optimized for his specific USB interface within his specific DAC. He does not have to design a universal one size fits all accessory to accommodate every brand of DAC on the market as do the add-on accessory makers.

- Because the DAC manufacturer can implement his optimized solution inside the same chassis as the DAC therefor saving on the extra cost of another chassis, housing, or case.

- Because you eliminate the need for extra connecting cables, adapters, and added external power supplies, you minimize "accessory clutter". Personally, I'd prefer not having all that extra 'stuff' in my listening setup.

For years, there have been tremendous sounding non-USB DACs: (in many cases, still better sounding than USB DACs).

I'm not sure I get your point. First you have to tell us which of the many non-USB DACs from yesteryear sound better than the current crop of excellent USB DACs. And is this a generally accepted fact or just a matter of opinion based on old thinking? Did those non-USB DACs handle 24/192 hi-res audio and DSD?

Whether we like it or not the USB interface is ubiquitous to computer based audio so USB DACs flood the market and they continue to improve over time. Do you think DAC manufacturers are sitting idle not paying any attention to their USB implementation? Of course not!

I havn't heard that data/signal integrity , posted on August 22, 2015 at 09:21:39
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	read what JS has posted in details. SI means that trigger points are free from distortion and less influenced by noise. The eye patterns in digital audio transfer are often very poor.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup-Inside DAC, posted on August 22, 2015 at 09:25:33
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	why keep emphasising this when chips and software are not under the control of the average das maker? Pay the prices for dCS gear and you can get exemplary SI. They even gave you a manual with the graphs in it before they went 'commercial'.

RE: USB Accessory Roundup-Inside DAC, posted on August 22, 2015 at 09:32:25
Dynobot	I think SC went in the other direction ie $99 or less DIY

RE: USB Accessory Roundup-Raspberry Pi!, posted on August 22, 2015 at 12:00:07
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	nt

IMO, with all noise or vibration-reducing tweaks, YMMV, posted on August 23, 2015 at 09:16:30

Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
Since: March 12, 2004

I suspect that environment in which the Regen, Wyrd, and/or Jitterbug is used will determine the improvement they make.

I'll admit I'm using a Wyrd at the moment and have couple of Jitterbugs on the way. Any improvement I think I might be getting from the Wyrd is extremely marginal.

Dmitri Shostakovich

Computer Audio Asylum

USB Accessory Roundup

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