Ars Technica listens to Audiophile Ethernet Cables

James Randi Alert!, posted on July 16, 2015 at 18:13:43
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Isn't there an Asylum rule against linking to any page that mentions James Randi? There should be! First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 16, 2015 at 22:22:14

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks for the interesting information.
I find also very interesting the 1st comment

" Ethernet is a transformer isolated signal, so if the engineer designed the system correctly the ground associated with the digital Ethernet signal will also be isolated, any noise the cable picks up will not contaminate the system ground and the additional shielding of the cable will make no difference whatsoever. "

I am not an expert but this sounds nice.
Ethernet connection when well implemented can provide isolation.
I do not know if usb, for instance, can.
Kind regards,
bg

I liked this bit from the third comment:, posted on July 16, 2015 at 23:16:53

Jaundiced Ear

"Digital communications systems are designed around the idea that noise is inevitable in even the best systems, and you need a way to detect errors."

That to me is the entire point of digital: to provide a system that preserves a high quality signal in the face of unavoidable analog distortions.

I think current digital devices do a pretty good job of that. For example, I have a modest, far less than US$100 Blu-Ray player (complete with wall-wart power supply) that provides simply stunning Blu-Ray visuals and an adrenalin pumping 5.1 sound track. However, if I have the temerity to suggest that it also sounds pretty good at straight audio playback I'll be called deaf, or a troll, or otherwise insulted or dismissed.

You don't have to drink the kool-aid. You don't have to spend big bucks to get decent sound. Ask yourself this: given the huge strides in available video quality from VHS to Blu-Ray, and the concurrent reduction in size and price for the components, why hasn't audio been able to keep up? Is audio really that much more complex than video (with its accompanying audio tracks)? Or are audio engineers simply not as good as video (with its accompanying audio tracks) engineers? Or are we just being sold a bill of goods?

JE

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 17, 2015 at 01:48:05
jkeny Manufacturer Posts: 502 Joined: May 4, 2001	Yes but the gotcha in all of this is that ethernet transformers do not provide isolation from RF noise - the most likely cause of audible issues when it gets into audio equipment. The possibility is still there for this noise intrusion & that EE & the following EE poster didn't learn their lessons well - back to school boys!

RE: I liked this bit from the third comment:, posted on July 17, 2015 at 01:48:42

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
I would be very interested to try out the BR player you mention, if i knew brand and model of course.
I am always interested in players that could work as streamers.
Most of BR players have ethernet port these days and i have my files on a nas ...
I am still oscillating between a streamer and the pc options
If i would find a good player i could put it in a beautiful box as well to build something nicer.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

" isolation from RF noise ", posted on July 17, 2015 at 01:53:18
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	Hi and thanks for the valuable advice And where this RF noise enters the equipment ? i am asking honestly, i am quite ignorant but also very interested. However some kind of isolation is always beneficial even if it is not the end of the noise issues. Thanks again. Kind regards, bg

RE: " isolation from RF noise ", posted on July 17, 2015 at 02:28:44
jkeny Manufacturer Posts: 502 Joined: May 4, 2001	The RF noise can enter through the cable & through the transformer & into the ground of the audio device. "isolation" is focussed to a particular bandwidth range - it's useful if that bandwidth is identified as the offending bandwidth. In this case the ethernet transformers don't "isolate" from one of the most insidious noise issues for audio - RF noise

You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 02:31:55

Jaundiced Ear

My Blu-Ray player is nothing special. It is a Sony that I bought at random from a giant USA discount chain (I simply preferred the layout of the remote to those of the competitors). I've had it for a few years so it certainly has been superseded since then.

Note that when I say my Blu-Ray player is nothing special, I am only saying that from the perspective of 2015: ten years ago it would have been amazing, indeed, it likely would have exceeded the capabilities of most TVs. Twenty years ago it would have bordered on the unbelievable and certainly would have overwhelmed virtually all TVs except perhaps some ultra secret sets in locked down laboratories.

Now I can buy this kind of quality for less than US$100.

This also comes with an audio sound track that is

articulate: voices are clear and intelligible

spacious: sound comes from all around you when listening to a movie

airy: treble is clearly present and lets you hear into the harmonics surrounding you

rich: bass and mid bass are robust and energizing adding drive to the sound track and to songs

powerful: deep bass and .1 tracks are thunderous and energizing.

How is this not high end sound?

JE

RE: You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 03:31:41

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks again very much.
Your Sony player could be " nothing special " but still it must be an extremely competent player
and from your description it would fit exactly my actual needs.
As i said i am evaluating devices that can be used as streamers of files stored in a nas i am using.
The idea is to try different solution and keep the most functional and good sounding one.
Problem is that maybe not all models are equally well realized.
I would very grateful if you could tell me the exact model.
I see now some older models from Sony on sale here at very nice price.
The model number would be extremely useful to me
You can email me privately if you prefer.
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 03:34:24

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

Ethernet is a transformer isolated signal . . .

The transformers are there for safety reasons. They are not designed for - and are ineffective at - filtering noise. The humblest LAN installer (me, even) understands the reasons why but Tony Lauck has explained them on this forum a dozen times for those who don't.

And where this RF noise enters the equipment ?

Er, where the wire plugs in?

the entire point of digital: to provide a system that preserves a high quality signal in the face of unavoidable analog distortions.

The error-correction capabilities do indeed ensure that the content of a packet is not corrupted but correcting data errors does not filter associated noise and the computing activity needed to perform error correction typically adds to it. That noise won't induce errors in a spreadsheet but, as you know, tends to degrade the integrity of a real-time signal such as audio. This is basic stuff.

Sorry to sound like a Galileo wannabee but the best way to see if a "better" ethernet connection can improve the sound quality of your system is to try one. Whatever next?

Disconnect the LAN cable from the device that drives your DAC. Connect it to a decentish switching hub such as a small Netgear. Now connect the hub to the device driving your DAC with a variety of short cables. Try to compare a stock cable (with its notoriously out-of-spec impedances, poor connectors etc etc) with a good quality off-the-shelf cable such as a Rosewill and the likes of a Meicord, aimed at the audio sector but only slightly more expensive than the Rosewill. If you have a suitable linear PSU handy, try it on the hub.

If you can't hear the difference, save your money but don't think that doing so logically entitles you to belittle those who say they can. I've not tried a Rosewill but I have compared remote server connections via a Netgear switch (linear and wall-wart powered) using a Meicord, a decent CAT 7 and a stock cable. The Meicord via the linear-powered switch is clearly the best though the CAT 7 wasn't bad. Stock cables, esp when by-passing the switch, significantly degrade the sound. A network engineer has suggested I try using 100-BaseT instead of 1000-BaseT but I've yet to do so.

The only difference Meicord claims for their cables is an adherence to spec closer than practicable with cheaper cables. I do not, given their price, envisage trying Audioquest cables. Thanks BTW to sounchekk for the original tip.

Again, You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 03:58:53

Jaundiced Ear

"If you can't hear the difference, save your money but don't think that doing so logically entitles you to belittle those who say they can."

My point is that when playing Blu-Ray I see spectacular images on my monitor, while also hearing great audio from my very much generic Blu-Ray player.

I consider this to be a huge improvement over what I saw and heard from VHS some twenty years ago. I think the improvement in video and it's accompanying audio since then has been remarkable.

Now if DVD and Blu-Ray have so much better audio than before, why doesn't regular audio also have a comparable improvement?

Throw rocks at me all you want to, but can you at least answer my question?

If your amps and speakers can't stand the heat, tell them to get out of the kitchen. Just don't let them blame the cook for their inability to deliver a decent meal to the customers.

JE

RE: " isolation from RF noise ", posted on July 17, 2015 at 04:17:22
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	Hi and thanks again for the helpful advice Quite a complex issue indeed. I see. It is very difficult for me to understand how RF noise can damage the LF audio. But i read a lot about RF noise being a really bad beast for digital audio equipment. Thanks a lot again. Kind regards, bg

RE: " isolation from RF noise ", posted on July 17, 2015 at 04:48:35
jkeny Manufacturer Posts: 502 Joined: May 4, 2001	"It is very difficult for me to understand how RF noise can damage the LF audio." Oh, if that was your question then, firstly, it can have an effect on the signal integrity of the digital signals which can lead to audible issues in the analogue stage; secondly the analogue stage active devices can have problems in dealing with RF noise issues on the ground plane.

RE: Again, You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:03:18
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Regular audio has improved. If you are happy with your equipment, what more needs to be said?

Amazing !.................................nt, posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:13:26
Cut-Throat Audiophile Posts: 18284 Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area Joined: September 2, 2000 Contributor Since: May 16, 2021	nt

RE: " isolation from RF noise ", posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:24:13

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks again.
What i mean is that often looking at the noise spectrum of even cheap digital devices (like BR or DVD players, dacs) they look very clean throughout the audio band, with noise below 100-110 dB.
It is a very low level indeed.
As you say RF noise has an impact also on the digital signal quality.
Maybe increasing things like jitter ? clock precision ?
It is a big challenge to do digital right.
And i think that this is the reason why sometimes it fails to convince from a musical point of view.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: Again, You are missing my point, posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:26:47

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

My point is that when playing Blu-Ray I see spectacular images on my monitor

I'm sure you do but I was discussing a different issue, one prompted by beppe's post. I described (helpfully, I flatter myself) a brief experiment comparing different LAN configurations and suggested that others might want to try the same. If you don't, that's fine. Others might, just as I took up SC's suggestion some years back.

Throw rocks at me all you want to, but can you at least answer my question?

Silly abuse aside, which question? The post of yours I responded to asked three, none of them IMO much amenable to a serious answer. The article you linked to in the OP was so full of non-sequiturs, straw-man arguments and the like already much aired over many years that no-one in their right mind would attempt a reply. Me neither.

As for the VHS v Blu-Ray thing, the VHS (analogue) format was developed in the 1970s, the RBCD (digital) format a few years later. Since then, video has gone digital via DVD and Blu-Ray. Bar a niche "Hi-Res" market, the audio sector is still using RBCD (except when compressed). IOW, your analogy is inappropriate.

If your amps and speakers can't stand the heat, tell them to get out of the kitchen. Just don't let them blame the cook for their inability to deliver a decent meal to the customers.

Sorry but I don't know what you're talking about.

Prepares to listen!, posted on July 17, 2015 at 07:37:24
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	nt

Hey Ryelands: Thank You, posted on July 17, 2015 at 09:11:00
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	After poking around your site a bunch, i was grateful for how comprehensive, & clear, & useful all the information there is. FWIW, just wanted to say Thanks for all your work, there and here. Cheers, "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Hey Ryelands: Thank You, posted on July 17, 2015 at 09:21:23
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	i was grateful for how comprehensive, & clear, & useful all the information there is. Aw, shucks, you sure know the way to a girl's heart. The only snag is that I don't have a site. To make sure the right person gets the thanks, what site are you referring to? D

RE: Hey Ryelands: Thank You, posted on July 17, 2015 at 09:47:37
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	Thought that you were involved with the "well tempered computer" :-) If not, - Thank you anyway for your great posts!! "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Hey Ryelands: Thank You, posted on July 17, 2015 at 10:14:24
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	Thought that you were involved with the "well tempered computer" . . . Not sure that Roseval would thank you for that :<( but I agree it's a most useful resource.

Ha!! Yipes, - i need a break.... :-) thanks -t, posted on July 17, 2015 at 10:22:15
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	. "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

LOL! [nt], posted on July 17, 2015 at 11:05:19
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26423 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Hey Ryelands: Thank You, posted on July 17, 2015 at 14:32:49

Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000

"Not sure that Roseval would thank you for that :<( but I agree it's a most useful resource."

A least he got the first letter right.

Is this like old Joke... Iceberg, Goldberg it's all the same.

http://www.servant.org/writings/humor/h_mfarj.php

RE: Ha!! Yipes, - i need a break.... :-) thanks -t, posted on July 17, 2015 at 14:36:41
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	Maybe thinking about streamers so much has affected your stream of consciousnesses...

Just curious..., posted on July 17, 2015 at 17:43:12
Jaundiced Ear	This being the computer audio asylum and all, I thought the inmates would have a passing interest in computers. I've always thought that Ars Technica was a good site to keep up with the latest in personal computing and operating systems. Apparently it is not highly regarded here. What are some inmate approved websites for current news on computers and operating systems? JE

RE: Just curious..., posted on July 19, 2015 at 08:00:25

Dave_K

ArsTechnica used to be great, before it was sold. I miss the old long form features on computing tech and operating systems which were in-depth, technical, and accessible. Now it's just another Wired.

For keeping up with latest PC hardware tech, I usually check AnandTech. Sometimes ExtremeTech. For more gaming oriented hardware and forums, it's HardOCP. I'm not that big a fan of Tom's Hardware or Xbit.

I'm more interested in mobile computing these days than desktop, so I often check out Notebook Review and used to be active in their forums.

For operating systems, I haven't found a go-to site. The interesting OS articles and features tend to be spread around. Ars is good for MacOS, particularly John Siracusa. Windows and Linux are all over the place. Other operating systems don't seem to get much coverage anywhere.

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 22, 2015 at 07:19:52

Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006

"Yes but the gotcha in all of this is that ethernet transformers do not provide isolation from RF noise - the most likely cause of audible issues when it gets into audio equipment."

Of course they limit energy transfer and filter frequencies in all bands. It's not like these Ethernet transformers are no impedance. They'll have a response tuned to Ethernet frequencies which is likely to be somewhat hot in the RF bands (as compared to 60Hz for example) but due to tiny cores and coil wire gauges are severely crippled in their ability to transmit appreciable power even in the bands they are tuned for. This is not even to mention the core losses, leakage inductance coupling energy to god knows where, I^2*R losses etc.

Ethernet transformers are just not a very effective power conversion device and when properly used can filter noise significantly.

Though, it is correct to say they are imperfect.

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 22, 2015 at 07:27:22
jkeny Manufacturer Posts: 502 Joined: May 4, 2001	Well I believe the problem with all differential signaling is common mode noise due to imbalance in the two or of phase signals. Don't think Ethernet transformers attenuate much if any of this CM noise?

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 22, 2015 at 09:57:15

Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006

In general transformers are designed to reject common mode signals while passing differential mode signaling, though nothing is perfect. Based on the construction and limitations set forth by mother nature, there is no such thing as a perfect transformer. Most common mode noise will be blocked by even crappy pulse type transformers as far as I know.

A problem with Ethernet circuitry CAN be common mode noise, sure. Diff signaling in itself only increases signal to noise ratio compared with the diff noise. However, the impedance "balancing" typically used in this type of circuitry allows for some amount of common mode noise rejection. Together they work to limit the negative affects of noise of both types.

The nature of the sum of the noise (common mode noise component plus differential mode noise component = sum of noise problem) problem will depend on the noise source and the victim circuits ability to reject it. In my experience the types of power supplies and high speed digital circuitry used in typical PC's can cause significant common mode and/or differential mode problems if not treated with care. Especially with low cost power supplies the diff mode and common mode filtering often employed to reduce these emissions and there are eliminated for cost reasons.

Poorly implemented circuits will be more susceptible. Awesomely implemented circuits will be less susceptible but not to the point of zero susceptibility, that would be impossible.

Depending on the source of the noise there is no guarantee you wont have differential mode noise problems in Ethernet circuitry nor is there any guarantee you wont have common mode problems...it all depends.

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 22, 2015 at 10:24:53
jkeny Manufacturer Posts: 502 Joined: May 4, 2001	I might be wrong here but aren't ethernet transformers only good for differential noise issues? To deal with common mode noise requires a CM choke - yes it's a transformer but in a different topology/configurstion to the topology of ethernet transformers.

RE: Interesting the 1st comment, posted on July 22, 2015 at 14:19:14

Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006

Ethernet pulse transformers are are just transformers tuned to comply to appropriate Ethernet hardware requirements, transfer Ethernet signaling power at the appropriately low power levels required for the job with required signal integrity. Like other transformers they are designed to respond to differential signals and reject common mode signals.

In transformers current is passed through a primary winding, magnetic flux in the core couples energy to the secondary winding to accomplish power transfer for whatever reason. The idea is to couple power from one winding to the other. Most of the time transformers have a different winding ratio on the primary and secondary to condition the transferred energy in some way.

Common mode chokes used properly ideally transfer no power from one winding to the next. They are used to link equal but opposing flux from the common mode noise current noise flowing through both windings in order that they destructively interfere. Common mode chokes I've seen are 1:1 winding ratios.

Milking it, posted on July 27, 2015 at 13:14:17
Bromo33333 Audiophile Posts: 3502 Location: Ipswich, MA Joined: May 4, 2004	It sure does seem they are trying to milk it and the controversy it generates. ==== "You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

Computer Audio Asylum

Ars Technica listens to Audiophile Ethernet Cables

71.146.0.173