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Roon Review

70.181.172.242
Posted on July 3, 2015 at 11:36:16
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I wrote about my impressions of Roon's sonic capabilities in Windows. Jon Iverson and Michael Lavorgna did the heavy lifting with their takes on this excellent software.

I know Roon won't appeal to all of you, but check out the review to see how far this software has come since its recent release.

 

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Any thoughts on how it works with classical music?, posted on July 3, 2015 at 12:50:02
flatmap
 Thanks for the review. You guys covered many points of interest.

For metadata & library management, classical music may be the biggest challenge with its need for multiple fields for conductors, soloists, chorus masters, organists, orchestras and so forth. Any thoughts on how well Roon might perform there?

Also does it handle older recordings which may out of print? And what about recordings from labels that no longer exist?

Just curious about how deep they are able to go with this...

 

RE: Any thoughts on how it works with classical music?, posted on July 3, 2015 at 13:01:00
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I honestly need more time to check these things out since the software was only released in May.

My system is completely taken down now for house remodeling. I probably won't be back up for another 2-3 weeks.

The Roon Labs forum is a great place to discuss this stuff.

I am looking forward to exploring my collection with Roon.

 

RE: Any thoughts on how it works with classical music?, posted on July 3, 2015 at 20:45:01
maxim
Audiophile

Posts: 458
Joined: May 22, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 24, 2013
 I am testing Roon to see if it can manage my classical libarary of a bit under 2,000 albums.

I posted about the positives at the link below.

But since then I started learning about the negatives. My understanding is that Roon has a large database of albums and rich metadata related to them, describing artists, composers, and even individual works. If an album from your library is identified correctly by Roon, you are in haven and all the positives apply. If it is not, you may have a small problem if something in your or Roon's description of the album is wrong, say one track was lost. You can fix it manually, but the interface is not user friendly and it takes a ton of time.

But if your album is simply not in the Roon's database, you have a big problem. I could not find a way to link a missing album to cross-album metadata. E.g. I have about 300 albums where the composer is "Ludwig van Beethoven", correctly identified with all the nice additional info and ways to browse, and about 200 albums with "Beethoven" who is treated as a different and entirely unknown composer. These albums are kind of "dead" for Roon database management.

I think 90+% of my collection is on major labels, so I am dissapointed that Roon failed to identify correctly so many albums.

Overall, I would say that for a classical music lover Roon is a work in progress. A lot of fun for early adopters, but far from ready as your main library management tool.


 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 4, 2015 at 08:06:55
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 I appreciate the effort in the overview.

But Roon is DOA. Sorry, that is my take. Forcing hardware manufacturers to conform to their standards is not going to fly.

The pricing is going to be a deal killer for most.

I think there is a lot of hype here and as computers fade from the scene so will Roon unless they make it easy for manufacturers to implement compatibility. If it can't be used with something like a Squeezebox, Sonos, or even an Auralic Aries...it's going to die.

Meridian and related technologies have a horrendous history in digital.

They invested in DVD-A technology which died a death. They invested in "apozidizing" filers when CD players took a dive, and now they have this over hyped MQA..soon to be buried too.

 

+1 nt, posted on July 4, 2015 at 11:15:20
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Any thoughts on how it works with classical music?, posted on July 4, 2015 at 12:05:39
flatmap
 Thanks, this is the kind of the thing I was wondering about. Having struggled with this, I'm not surprised that it is a work in progress.

 

"as computers fade from the scene" ??, posted on July 4, 2015 at 12:54:34
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46280
Location: USA
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  Since: February 2, 2002
Can you point us to any evidence that "computers are fading from the scene"?

Certainly more people are buying dedicated playback hardware (streamers, renderers, etc) but how many are also abandoning their computers? How many newcomers are getting on board with these dedicated devices vs starting out with computers?

I'm just curious if there is any market data to support your comment "as computers fade from the scene". I haven't seen any.

While it might be perfect for others, from what I've read I can't see much value in Roon for $119/yr.


 

RE: "as computers fade from the scene" ??, posted on July 4, 2015 at 15:12:08
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Roon is going to have to change its business plan dramatically or will go into the digital dumpster like many "game changers" before it.

 

I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 4, 2015 at 17:30:13
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 If anything they are accelerating into every area of our lives, Including hi-end audio.



 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 4, 2015 at 18:43:02
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Of course you agree, the blinding leading the blind.

PC sales have sunk like a stone, down 5% the first quarter of 2015.

Tablet sales sales will surpass computers by years end.

SMART DEVICES are increasing their profile in daily lives.

 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 4, 2015 at 19:46:50
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "Tablet sales sales will surpass computers by years end."

"Tablets" are just a computer form-factor. For most of us the necessity of using a desktop is now greatly reduced, but is yet to be eliminated. For the vast majority of things most of us do on computers most of the time, a modern tablet or something similar does the job. Shoot, I'm typing this on my iPad1 whilst sipping beer on the patio. A proper tool for the job fer sure...

But it would not be my first choice for carefully working photos, laying out PCB's, that sort of thing. Not enough application SW, Screen area, or MIPS. Not at this point in time anyway. At any point in time the main tradeoff is between energy and MIPS. As die geometry and capacitance decrease the chip power requirements do also while battery energy density is entering the area of a decent yielding explosive. As the airline industry is noticing...

The punch line is we are already largely to the point where I can choose the device for reasons other than raw performance required for an application. For instance ALL of my computers and portables do email and web browsing well, play music, view photos. Stuff that thirty years ago was rare and costly. Once VR goggles and nerve impulse or finger position sensors become common there will be no need to be tied to a desk. Ever.

Already we're pretty well unchained!

Freedom Forever... Rick

 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 4, 2015 at 22:12:10
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 2090
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 I don't think that the desktop computer form factor is essential for me now but a 24" monitor, keyboard and mouse still matter to me.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Roon Review-Meridian, posted on July 5, 2015 at 00:18:56
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 I agree with you, they were the culprit in the DVDA v SACD war, trying to use intellectual property as the weapon.There were a lot of economies with the truth in the discussions.

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 04:15:51
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Roon is working with manufacturers. Will they be successful? Only Lucy knows and she won't tell me.

Roon is not part of Meridian. Their former Sooloos was purchased by Meridian, but these guys ultimately separated and started Roon.

It's nice to have choices and see new ideas.

 

Do the blind have to tell you that a iphone is a Palm top computer........., posted on July 5, 2015 at 05:05:50
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Only a Neanderthal would think different.



 

Does it run Roon?, posted on July 5, 2015 at 05:15:23
Dave_K
 If not, then for the purposes of this particular thread, it doesn't really count.

I think you know perfectly well what Sprezza means.

 

Why Yes it does ................................, posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:11:14
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Very Soon, according to their website..... To deny that Tablets, Phones, 'Smart Watches', Squeezeboxes etc are Computers, is not only Stupid, but ridiculous.





 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:35:19
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 That Tablets are a "computer form factor" is of course obvious.

The discussion here is the use of computers as transports, which is a perquisite of using Roon.

Tablets offer none of the connectivity or specifications.

 

RE: Roon Review-Meridian, posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:37:23
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Absolutely.

My local dealer has a stockpile of Meridian gear is he selling for pennies on the dollar, collecting dust.

Shame, because their stuff sounded nice to me and was well built but their concepts were clearly against the grain.

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:41:35
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 It takes more than a bit of arrogance, which they clearly have shown, to bring a half baked concept to market.

I am well aware that Roon is not part of Meridian, but Roon sure looks amazingly a lot like Sooloos, and the Roon speaker concept is right out of the Meridian playbook.

Of course it is nice to have choices, but it will never live up to the hype.

Throw this in with press cheerleaded, never going to happen "DSD Revolution".


 

RE: Why Yes it does ................................, posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:45:47
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012

When did anyone say that tablets and smart devices were not computers?

We are talking about computers as the entities used as transports with installed playback software, USB ports, and substantial RAM.

Stop being a petty gnat.

Roon has give ZERO details of their iOS and Android functionality.

 

RE: Why Yes it does ................................, posted on July 5, 2015 at 06:47:31
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 "Android and iOS coming soon!"

LOL...when in a year? What functionality? A control point only?

Enjoy the hype.

 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 5, 2015 at 07:58:25
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "The discussion here is the use of computers as transports, which is a perquisite of using Roon."

Then Roon is Doomed.

Leastwise if you're thinking actual desktops. However Windows or 80xx archecture or whatever it relys upon can prolly be had in compact, quiet instances so it might have a chance as essentially embedded software. If it really requires a desktop I/O to run then it's dead in the gate.

The fickle finger of fate no longer rests upon a mouse button...

Rick

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 08:12:12
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 "It takes more than a bit of arrogance, which they clearly have shown, to bring a half baked concept to market."

I don't agree with you. I can't speak for the audio press, but I enjoy using Roon.

As for being arrogant, I don't see it that way at all. When Roon was initially released, they felt that WASAPI would be just fine for Windows. They listened to their customers and promptly brought out ASIO support. This tells me that they are willing to adapt to the demands of their market. A very positive trait for success.

And remember, this "half backed concept" is their concept that no one else appears to be doing.

 

RE: I agree with Abe....Computers are hardly 'fading from the scene'......., posted on July 5, 2015 at 09:08:08
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 N deed it is doomed...UNLESS they find a way to make it run as you say, either embedded, or as a plug in, or an app.

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 09:11:11
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Our opinions may differ, but specific to the marketing, the arrogance is palpable.

But in any case, let me make this clear. I am not in any way against innovation.

If Roon becomes available on all platforms, and I can use it with any file playback device..laptop, streamer, renderer, iPad, whatever..and the price is more in line with reality, I am on board.

I am not here to kill good ideas, just to shed light on bad execution.

Let's see where the chip fall.

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 11:11:52
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 "It takes more than a bit of arrogance, which they clearly have shown, to bring a half baked concept to market."

You love to make ridiculous claims.

 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 11:33:35
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 Thanks for the review Steve I enjoyed it. :-) I think they saved the best review for last. Overall I think it is a good product but as you mentioned maybe not for everyone, it depends how much you really love music. I have not tried it yet as it does not fully fit well into my system but I will eventually set something up and give it a whirl.

The concept is good though... An example... I was just listening to something the other day and then went online for some more information. Their software I believe fills this gap and will enhance the enjoyment of the listening experience. It was some Randy Weston and thought back to when I saw him maybe 30 years ago at the Brooklyn Academy of Music with Candido, Abdul-Malik and Chief Bey. A great concert with some musical legends, and the thought of being able to expand one's knowledge with such an application can be a pleasurable experience.

In concept this software can be like infinite liner notes and progressively linking to enhance the enjoyment of music. If it works well it is a great idea.

 

Thanks Bob., posted on July 5, 2015 at 11:51:40
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Once they get the iOS going, I think they can concentrate on refinement of the data searches.

It will be interesting to see where Roon is taken.

 

RE: Thanks Bob., posted on July 5, 2015 at 12:25:00
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 I just don't get all the negativity. Music should be a happy thing!

It is like some people are living in a Gulag.








 

RE: Roon Review, posted on July 5, 2015 at 12:33:59
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1845
Joined: March 31, 2008
 I am well aware that Roon is not part of Meridian, but Roon sure looks amazingly a lot like Sooloos

Small wonder as Meridian stopped the development of Sooloos and these guys are the ones behind the Sooloos.
The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: Roon Review-Meridian, posted on July 5, 2015 at 12:34:02
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 The same characters are making another try with "Master Quality Authenticated". However, in all fairness, the other side in the DVDA v SACD wars were playing the same game with their "intellectual property".


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Meta data and DSP, posted on July 5, 2015 at 12:41:45
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1845
Joined: March 31, 2008
 From what I gathered up to now
Roon is about GUI and meta data. Indeed the Sooloos heritage. A stunning interface light years ahead at theie time.
There are some talks about cooperation with Signalyst HQ, as Mercman stated, you need a third party plugin even for EQ.
Obvious it is pretty poor in the DSP department.
Personally I do think $ 119 / year a bit much for meta-data

The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: Meta data and DSP, posted on July 5, 2015 at 13:39:54
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Its a little more than just meta data, but like I said earlier, it's not for everybody.

 

RE: Why Yes it does ................................, posted on July 5, 2015 at 15:36:26
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Android beta is available. IOS this month. Final Android very, very soon.

 

RE: Roon Review-Meridian, posted on July 5, 2015 at 15:50:12
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 In reference to MQA, I am not betting on folks who by the late 2000s still did not realize that 24 bit audio would be decoupled from physical media.

Their focus on developing $20,000 disc spinners and $15,000 touch screen file playback systems for the rich has resulted in their well deserved irrelevance.

 

RE: Why Yes it does ................................, posted on July 5, 2015 at 15:52:33
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Ok.

Do you happen to know if these can be used as stand alone control points for a remote library?

Must it be used with the program running on a computer in parallel (which is what I understand, but I would love to be wrong).

There is no information on the website at all about functionality and system requirements, unless I missed it.

Thanks in advance.

 

At some point in this life: we can't call every internet enabled, posted on July 6, 2015 at 11:46:25
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 device with a processor in it, a computer: as they are so ubiquitous. Eventually, people here will have to start calling their TV, a TV.

Yes, - they are absolutely a computing device that connects to the internet via a home wifi network, and have a processor chip.

Examples of this are....

Baby monitors
light bulbs
Microwave oven
Refigerators
TVs
thermostats....
& even old TI calculators from the 70s, (not wifi enabled).

Whenever the baby monitor has a DHCP conflict and is not connecting, - we don't say, - "hey honey, - can you please go downstairs and reboot the the 2nd internet-enabled-mini-computer-camera-device above the crib"



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Yes, that's what I said, Computers aren't dead................, posted on July 6, 2015 at 13:27:58
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021

Are you and Spuzz Butt Buddies?




 

Sorry but, you've said nothing with your off-topic post, posted on July 6, 2015 at 14:32:33
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 As we've been saying, calling a TV a computer just confuses people.....

as does calling a squeezebox touch a computer

As does calling an old TI calculator a computer. (Even in the olden days, we called them calculators).

And... of course... no one here is saying that single or limited purpose networked devices are "going away." (Same with mobile {smart} phones. Asserting that I'm saying that they are, is a total straw man).

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Any thoughts on how it works with classical music?, posted on July 8, 2015 at 08:25:36
Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008
 I agree that classical is a huge challenge. Having created and tagged over 2,500 hi rez discs in my own library of Mch classical, I am well aware of the tagging problems. But, mine is all done in JRiver with only the continuing trickle of new entries to deal with.

The user interface of Roon looks nice, but it is really pretty good also with my touch screen JRemote interface to JRiver. So, I do not know what Roon could add at this point to my experience. JRemote searching is pretty easy and it meets my needs. Yes, JRiver's learning curve amid its huge feature set is a bitch, but I am already well past that.

And, I am somewhat frustrated at understanding certain things about how Roon works, exactly what formats it does or does not support, etc. For example, multichannel support is crucial to me, as are support for video formats like BD-A and BD-V. I understand it is still early in the game, and that my format preferences are in a tiny, minority niche.

But, here is a really big issue I do not see an answer to. Where and how exactly does Roon store the tagging information once acquired? For CD, SACD, FLAC, but not the BD formats, JRiver at least can store the tags, even after editing and with any of my custom classical fields, within the media file itself in standard IDV3 format. So, if someday, I migrate to a different library tool, if it supports that standard, all my tagging efforts will be preserved in the transition to the new tool.

No tool is guaranteed to last forever, and Roon at this point is especially iffy with too many unanswered questions.

Incidentally, I have not used it because it does not support SACD, but a friend has for his over 2,000 CDs. There is a tool called MusiChi that comes with a huge database of classical works by composer, from which tagging info is easily copied into your library to build consistent tagging across all tracks. It can also store the tags in the media files in standard format. It has a learning curve, too, but it is not as daunting as JRiver.

Also, as a footnote, JRiver's features have allowed me to completely eliminate the preamp/Mch processor from my system. It is my playback control center and library feeding my external DAC from the PC. JRiver also plays videos and even TV via an Ethernet cable card device. These capabilities are clearly well beyond Roon at this point, so Roon does not appear to be in my future.

 

price is outrageous, posted on July 12, 2015 at 08:17:56
kenzo
Audiophile

Posts: 955
Location: San Francisco
Joined: September 27, 2003
 doesn't matter how good it is...

 

RE: price is outrageous, posted on July 12, 2015 at 08:57:17
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 +1.

They are betting on a relatively tiny well heeled customer base.

 

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