UpTone Audio USB Regen

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 23, 2015 at 15:41:18
ozzyboy Audiophile Posts: 334 Joined: April 4, 2002	I ordered one should have it in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know...

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 23, 2015 at 15:43:34

ted_b
Audiophile

Posts: 803
Joined: January 14, 2001

I would add "search before you post" to your dogmas. There are dozens of posts about it here, and literally thousands over on Computer Audiophile dot com. The company is run by good folks who know their science. I have their JS-2 power supply and wrote about it, then bought it.

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=pcaudio&n=146649

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=pcaudio&n=147445

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=pcaudio&n=147507

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/regen-amber-inpressions-24783/

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-audio-regen-listening-impressions-24078/

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 23, 2015 at 16:56:23
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	I've got one coming also. Promised in July. You connect you're USB cable to the Regen and plug the Regen into your dac. It creates a brand new usb signal free of all noise from your computer. People who have them are very positive in there reviews of this device Alan

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 23, 2015 at 17:43:05
SBGK Audiophile Posts: 444 Joined: March 22, 2012	not free of all noise, just usb generated noise. http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 23, 2015 at 20:34:15
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	Also noise on the 5v power line from computer to Dac Alan

There is already an 'upgrade'!, posted on June 23, 2015 at 21:09:55
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	http://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-upgrade/switch-mode-upgrade-for-the-regen?language=en plus an amber version from the original green! Talk about momentum selling.

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 24, 2015 at 00:20:30

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

From what I read, it's basically a USB Hub chip with adequate electronics surrounding it. It's basically a selfpowered USB reclocker and filter.
It's not been a secret for several years that active USB hubs improving the sound experience with many of the DACs out there.
The Schiit Wyred is a similar device.

Passive filter devices like the iFi USB filter IMO can't compete with those active devices.

Obviously the impact of such a device will depend on the quality of your DAC.
The better your DAC input stage, power supply and filtering the less impact should be expected.
IMO DAC manufacturers should use these devices to figure out how well or bad they are doing on that part.
Everything done by such a device should actually be done by the DAC itself.

As FMAK mentioned. There a quite some comments on the web that power supplies and related tweaks seem to improve the USBRegen performance.
Uptone Audio says they come with the best PS for the price. Hmmh.
And that's what surprises me. John Swenson - a guy who usually strives for the best - is part of the team.
A pity that he just manages to go half the way. Obviously he finally arrived in the real world where competition & market-price & volume & margin & cost dictates the outcome of a product.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP

I get the impression that , posted on June 24, 2015 at 01:08:58
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	John Swenson doesn't call the shots in production and marketing. There has been some interesting posts by in CA in response to some of my mild feedbacks.

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 24, 2015 at 07:25:34
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	It is only $175. John has a power supply you can use to upgrade the Regen but it is $995 Alan

RE: There is already an 'upgrade'!, posted on June 24, 2015 at 07:26:55
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	All currently shipped Regens are the upgraded amber. Same price Alan

$1000 Power Supply?, posted on June 24, 2015 at 08:00:33
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	Only millionaires would use one; the power output is totally unnecessary. A $50-100 LPS will do and an extra $30 spent on the Regen would have made this unnecessary.

All the noise from the computer????, posted on June 24, 2015 at 09:24:09

Gordon Rankin
Manufacturer

Posts: 2928
Joined: June 9, 2000

Guys,

As long as the ground is connected and there is not 100% optical isolation then noise is going to come through. Also NEVER believe anyone that says all or 100% or no jitter... come one even I have been caught on those lines before. Just make sure if you try it and it sounds better than what you have now then it's doing it's job.

A simpler and maybe cheaper better solution would be to make a linear VBUS power supply and use the Corning optical USB cable. The Corning is 100% isolated, but does not have VBUS. If your product does not need VBUS then your set with the cable alone.

G.
J. Gordon Rankin

RE: I get the impression that , posted on June 24, 2015 at 09:24:15

SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012

think they were aiming for a more expensive/developed product, but were happy with the price/performance ratio of the regen (as are all their customers, it seems).

Nice to see people with the conviction to improve digital audio, instead of the usual naysayers.

I would use it to improve the signal into my usb/spdif convertor, which apparently works as well as regen/dac combo.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 24, 2015 at 09:46:31
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	"It is only $175. John has a power supply you can use to upgrade the Regen but it is $995"" I do not believe that supply was intended for the Regen, it is to power a Mac system. The included supply is a good starting point. Many people already have or will purchase linear supplies. There are several inexpensive ones on Ebay.

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 24, 2015 at 10:25:49
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	Switch-mode upgrade for the Regen Uptone Audio - Sbooster € 34,95 I have little idea what's in it.

Assertion,, posted on June 24, 2015 at 10:28:52
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	assertion, no context or explanation. Trade mark comment.

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 25, 2015 at 03:00:16

Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999

Hi,

> I have little idea what's in it.

Funny, I know exactly what's inside and I could even draw you a circuit.

It is a straightforward LC filter and a pretty good idea at that.

Of course, squashing that noise inside the SMPS and doing it all across the audio range, rather than only catching the high frequencies is an even better idea.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

" only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 04:42:14
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	Hi ... maybe are these HF those that make more of the mess ? the more detrimental for performance ? I say this because on the basis of the listening reports after insertion of this device between the PS and the Regen. Thanks a lot for the valuable explanation. Kind regards, bg

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 05:10:43

Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999

Hi,

Based on what I read, the device being discussed uses the latest generation of TI Regulators, which do already a great job of killing audio band noise.

So in this case the LC filter to filter HF noise may very well be the best choice.

You may remember that I recommended this kind of filter as an easy and cheap DIY measure to help conventional SMPS's.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 05:23:45
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	If you use a usb dac you really need to try the Regen. If you are trying to talk yourself out of getting the Regen you are truly missing out. This is truly breakthrough at a reasonable price.

These TI regs, posted on June 25, 2015 at 05:49:28
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	are sensitive to mains pickup, using the factory demo boards.

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 06:29:06

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi Mr. Thorsten and thanks again and perfect.
Finally i am catching something. Now i have to study and possibly learn more about this passive DC (but also AC) filters.
I will only be able to test their efficiency by ear, unfortunately.
But it seems that if the playback system is resolving enough there could be improvements.
Thanks a lot very much indeed for valuable advice in an issue that is really fascinating me. Noise killing. Noise is not music at all.
Actually noise kills music.
Kindest regards,
beppe
Kind regards,
bg

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 06:38:54

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks for the advice.
After reading so many positive comments i have no doubt left about the effectiveness of the device,
but i think i have also read that results can be different, from very remarkable improvement to slight improvement
depending, i guess, on quality of original usb link and usb port execution on the dac/converter.
Actually i am trying to improve both, the usb link from the pc and the power supply on a usb to aes converter.
I am sure that the stock PS is inadequate. It lets all the HF mains noise go through and to the regulator.
I think i have already a good usb cable. I like it very much indeed.
I am just trying to feed the regulator inside teh converter with cleaner power.
I know that this will do nothing for the noise generated by the regulator itself.
But i have to try and listen anyway to be sure.
It is a little tricky but i think it is worth the effort.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: All the noise from the computer????, posted on June 25, 2015 at 07:45:47

Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012

You won't bother to respond, but to correct you..UpTone NEVER said or make any claims about eliminating ALL noise.

They CLEARLY state, if you had checked:

'Although the Regen DOES NOT eliminate all sound quality differences between USB cables in a high-end system, it significantly reduces those differences. John Swenson has written about how the PHY chips and processors at the input of every USB DAC (even those with galvanic isolation) are sensitive to "packet noise modulation" and ground-plane noise—caused by poor signal integrity and impedance mis-matching."

They also make NO claims about zero jitter. But specifically market their product as LOW jitter.

And John Swensen:

"Note: it does not get rid of the packet noise altogether, it is just as low as it can be....

The hub chip inside the REGEN has its own PHYs, which themselves generate packet noise on ITS power and ground planes. I have worked hard to minimize this noise, but it is still there. The result is that the REGEN itself is also sensitive to the SI of the signal fed to it, which is why USB cables on its input still make a difference"

Perhaps a bit of research before commenting?

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 25, 2015 at 07:57:46
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	Hey Thorsten do you know if iFi's new 1uv noise level power supply is available in the States yet?

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 08:25:01
Ugly Audiophile Posts: 2912 Location: Des Moines, WA Joined: August 22, 2006	The new TI's do look really nice. I hadn't noticed the new series of parts.

RE: These TI regs, posted on June 25, 2015 at 08:30:38
Ugly Audiophile Posts: 2912 Location: Des Moines, WA Joined: August 22, 2006	The ones I'm looking at are around 70dB down across the entire audio band. Sure you can trade gain for bandwidth and have more roll off at typically lower mains noise frequencies but you'll sacrifice high frequency transient response to get it. Why not just put a beefier, lower ripple supply in there so you can have the best of both worlds?

RE: These TI regs, posted on June 25, 2015 at 10:29:12
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	I don't use them; there are better ones.

RE: UpTone Audio USB Regen, posted on June 25, 2015 at 18:21:23

Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999

Hi,

I do not keep track of shipping etc. sorry.

I have been using several units for quite some time now.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 20:13:09
Bibo01 Audiophile Posts: 648 Joined: December 18, 2008	If USB receiver has separate power supply, separate ground and reclock, in your view is a Regen still needed?

RE: " only catching the high frequencies ", posted on June 25, 2015 at 20:18:32

Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999

Hi,

Sorry, I have not got the product you mention, if I did I could not talk about it.

I have covered the basics and underlying issues this product attempts/claims to address previously:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=146689

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=146756

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

As is the case,, posted on June 25, 2015 at 21:58:01
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	it is actually unclear as to what he was commenting on, other than generality.

Very good question., posted on June 25, 2015 at 22:08:05

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and i think this is a very good question and how usb interfaces should be designed.
I mean, a usb power supply should not be necessary at all with well designed usb dac/converters.
The very first thing that i read about usb was how dirty and weak is the power on the usb port ...
And the usb receiver reclocks the signal already.

How many reclockings this blessed usb signal needs ???

It is a little bit funny that usb were presented as the solution of all timing problems afflicting spdif.
Thanks again for the question.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 02:23:32
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	Congradulations, your comment hits the topic on the mark. The promotion of usb audio above all else had it's roots in marketing and sales. There were little justification of the over the top claims in power supply immunity and signal integrity.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 02:59:44

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot for the kind congratulations.
On principle asynchronous transmission is indeed a good thing.
I am thinking for instance to those players that fill a buffer and then read with accuracy from that buffer.
The weak link appears the usb channel.
I bought an usb extender that uses ethernet cables and promises to work fine up to 30 meters, much more than usb i guess.
Maybe an ethernet like port could be more suitable for the task of transmitting the digital signal (i am way out my knowledge here).
Given that ethernet allows for much longer cables.
I am using ethernet cables of 10 meters between router and pc and nas.
Absolutely no issue at all ... never.

For instance i am reading here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_6_cable

" When used for 10/100/1000BASE-T, the maximum allowed length of a Cat 6 cable is 100 meters (328 ft). This consists of 90 meters (295 ft) of solid "horizontal" cabling between the patch panel and the wall jack, plus 10 meters (33 ft) of stranded patch cable between each jack and the attached device "

it's a lot indeed. Way beyond usb standard capabilities.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 06:04:22

Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002

I was one of the first people to implement Asynchronous USB in a high end DAC. Wavelength Audio-Gordon Rankin provided the update to the Crimson DAC in 2007. The result for me was improved sound.

I don't remember Gordon ever saying anything about Power supply immunity. As for signal integrety, Aysnchronous USB resulted in less jitter. Above and beyond that, Gordon never made the claims you have suggested. In fact, I don't know of any well recognized manufacturer that has made the claims you have suggested.

But I haven't seen everything out there in terms of promotion, so I am not saying you are wrong Fred. Just as it relates to Gordon Rankin.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 06:43:41

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

. . . I don't know of any well recognized manufacturer that has made the claims you have suggested.

Me neither but, hey, why let facts spoil a good argument?

beppe:
a usb power supply should not be necessary at all with well designed usb dac/converters

But a well-designed USB DAC pre-supposes a decent local PSU. Taking power from the bus is fine for non-critical devices but not so fine for others such as modest - let alone "well designed" - scanners, printers and so on. Do you complain about 3.5" USB drives needing their own PSUs?

The very first thing that i read about usb was how dirty and weak is the power on the usb port ...

Exactly. See above.

And the usb receiver reclocks the signal already

The USB protocol wouldn't work without a clock at both ends.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 06:56:23
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	When did I mention Gordon?. I remember you posting how great the TD1543 dac sounded on usb.

How about, posted on June 26, 2015 at 07:02:19
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	shove it into the front usb socket of a Mac Mini and the best computer audio can be had with 'audiophile' playing software?

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 07:10:34
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	I didn't say that you mentioned Gordon. I was just relating my experiences. Perhaps we should look at what you stated in 2006 Fred; not that I'm really interested.

RE: How about, posted on June 26, 2015 at 07:24:50
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	shove it into the front usb socket of a Mac Mini and the best computer audio can be had with 'audiophile' playing software? You have to like the "telling you where to shove it" bit (OK, I have to) but, absent source, I can't say more . . .

RE: How about, posted on June 26, 2015 at 07:53:55
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Very few of us have your education or insight Fred. I have had to learn things the hard way with trial and error.

2006, posted on June 26, 2015 at 11:32:45
fmak Audiophile Posts: 13158 Location: Kent Joined: June 1, 2002	You'll find a consistent thread on noise, power supplies, relocking and format

RE: 2006, posted on June 26, 2015 at 11:42:06
Mercman Audiophile Posts: 6581 Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002	Thanks for the information Fred.

RE: How about, posted on June 26, 2015 at 12:42:47
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	"shove it into the front usb socket of a Mac Mini" There are no front sockets on a MAC mini. I guess if you push hard enough you can make one...

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 26, 2015 at 20:58:12

Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999

Hi,

> a well-designed USB DAC pre-supposes a decent local PSU. Taking
> power from the bus is fine for non-critical devices but not so
> fine for others

This is true, but that local supply may very well be powered via the USB Bus and deliver extremely low noise. It is merely an issue to decide what you need and to design it into the circuit.

But that is just restating what I wrote earlier in a different way.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 27, 2015 at 10:07:40
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	Hi and thanks for the valuable reply. I start to hate a little the usb connection. I wonder if ethernet connection could be intrinsically better. It can transfer a signal up to 100 m i guess with accuracy while usb cannot do that for more that 10 m ? ... this must mean something. No doubt about the goodness of asynchronous transmission but more about usb connection. Thanks again. Kind regards, bg

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 27, 2015 at 13:29:40
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	Long Ethernet cables cause jitter. Saw a demo of this at CES Alan

How 'long' is long..., posted on June 27, 2015 at 20:10:50
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	20-30 feet? I need about that to get from the internet router to the SONOS Connect in my main system. That said, the router has about three city blocks of cheap old phone cable to the fiber connection down the street. Talk about jitter! First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 27, 2015 at 20:48:58
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Absolute nonsense. A post pulled out of your rear end.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on June 28, 2015 at 00:00:11

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot for the valuable information.
Let's say then that both usb and ethernet connections cause jitter, more or less depending on the length, cable quality, quality of the interface in the pc and receiver.
Then the problem is the quality of the usb receiver device that in the best case should suppress this jitter.
It could be that some designs are better at treating and then reclocking high jitter signals.
I think that the USB Regen is a very smart device and depending on the above mentioned parameters his impact on sound can be very positive.
Let's say from slightly positive from very very positive.
But always positive.
It is a very interesting device indeed.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

You will hear more from these people, posted on June 28, 2015 at 08:07:00

rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003

This note is general - not aimed at you, FRITHED.

Do not dismiss them or their efforts. They are not recent arrivals to the audio world. And the part of the audio world they inhabit is not one of crass commercialism.

The principals are not in business to make gadgets; they are the real thing.

Their future plans will bring some big surprises.

The LED was changed because they found the amber one sounded better - not surprising. Along with the resistor addition from what they learned from using the CORNING cable - all of this is detailed at their site. Makes an interesting story, worth reading since it illustrates one of audio obsessions truest phenomenons: the unexpected explanation for why something sounded better being completely different than what one had assumed. Changes have been made based upon discovery from listening to the thing. The fellows threw away two hundred or so bare PCBs after finding the improvements gained. Not the action of a fast buck operation; not planned obsolescence!

I think they are on to something. I ordered one for August delivery.

I am skeptical of the supply supplied. There is something coming that will go between the switcher and the REGEN that the makers claim will relieve all switcher anxiety. Of course, I will have to hear that for myself. In the interim I will be using something else.

This device represents a small step on the way to something really important.

RE: You will hear more from these people, posted on June 28, 2015 at 11:36:52
Bob_C Audiophile Posts: 2667 Location: NY Joined: July 31, 2000	Everything you have said is very true. The stupid remarks here reflect the character of the posters not that of Alex or John.

RE: You will hear more from these people, posted on June 28, 2015 at 15:38:47

Audioclyde
Audiophile

Posts: 176
Location: Oklahoma
Joined: June 1, 2000

I have the original Regen and am eagerly awaiting the upgraded Amber version. It took me all of 5 minutes with the Regen in my system to discern a very nice improvement and at a very reasonable cost.

I just literally chuckle at all the experts that haven't heard the product but just know they can/could improve on it and/or those that belittle the possibility that it makes a significant difference. I have a high end system and have had products from respected manufacturers, including those posting in this thread. Like it or not Alex Crespi & John Swenson have produced a very effective reasonably priced product that works.

RE: You will hear more from these people, posted on June 28, 2015 at 16:22:02
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	Amen!

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 1, 2015 at 21:35:31
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	You have such a way with words. Are you saying that Ethernet cables cannot produce jitter? The demonstration at CES was done by Prism Electronics who make professional digital gear for recording studios. Alan

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 1, 2015 at 21:44:15

Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012

I am very well aware of who Prism is.

But you don't give any information about how the demo was run, what product they were hawking, what their commercial interest was, and any other details.

Just "long ethernet cables cause jitter, I saw it a CES".

Audioquest was also "demonstrating" their CAT7 cables were "better" than the cheapest CAT5 with classic snake oil tactics.

I don't think Prism is in that category btw. But they were there at CES for a reason and there must have been an endgame.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 1, 2015 at 21:59:46

ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003

They were at CES because they had a prototype dac which they wanted to see if there was any interest in it. The demo consisted of a digital 1000hz signal that they sent to a dac (not there dac) over a 30 meter Ethernet cable. At the output of the dac they filtered out the 1000hz signal leaving a bunch of squealing sounds and tones which were very audible. The gentleman from Prism said that was the sound of cable induced jitter.
He said there can be jitter in the original recording, cable induced jitter and jitter caused by the dac.
Alan

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 1, 2015 at 22:06:14
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Thank you for filling in the details. Interesting. 30 meters is exceptionally long and as the rep said, there are numerous causes of jitter, but there are also numerous causes of noise in a run that long. My question would be how do they did know the sounds that were heard were the sounds of "jitter"? How about power supply noise? How about RFI/EMI?

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 2, 2015 at 09:02:48
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	Yes you are right about all the other factors that could be causing the sounds. Over at prismsound.com they have a video dealing with dacs and measureing the performance of dacs. It is over 1 hour long so I have not had a chance to view it. When I do ,if there is any additional info about jitter I will post again Alan

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 2, 2015 at 09:19:08
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Thanks for doing follow up. I must say I have never, in years of reading CA forums and reading literature, heard of jitter manifesting itself as audible noise. I have always thought the conventional wisdom is that it cause timing errors. If someone can point to a source that that identifies jitter as audible noise, I would be interested to see it,

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 4, 2015 at 11:33:13

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

This sounds like a BS marketing pitch. Beware demos. They are easily rigged. There is jitter on Ethernet packets, but this has nothing to do with audio jitter. The coupling of network jitter to audio jitter, depends on the protocols used and the quality of the implementation.

What protocol was used?

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 4, 2015 at 11:50:13
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Exactly. Demos in a commercial setting are to be viewed with the high levels of suspicion. Classic marketing technique..create a problem, then sell the marks the solution.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 7, 2015 at 06:41:27

soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007

To help you on your experiences.

Gordon sold async USB as the holy grail in the early days.

You've been his closest follower over here.
You jumped on any bs they put in front of you.

Fact is, many of us were claiming that the async solution is all but perfect.
Even in the early days it was clear that a well tuned PC and power supply
and an isochronous DAC plus isolation sounded better then just a asynchronous DAC alone.

It took Gordon years to (very quietly) admit that there's something else going on.
His body Steve N. chimed in with his famous words "It's all common mode noise".

Bottom line. 10 years later the subject is still not under control.
And in my opinion manufacturers are to blame for these slow developments.
Most of them still build DACs where a simple filter on the USB bus shows improvements.

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blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 7, 2015 at 10:21:12
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	I don't often agree with you..but you are spot on here.

RE: Very good question.- and a non answer, posted on July 7, 2015 at 10:35:53

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

Gordon sold async USB as the holy grail in the early days.

I fear you're overstating the case. I don't recall him claiming it was a panacea or that there was little need to pay attention to issues other than the transmission protocol.

You jumped on any bs they put in front of you.

I believe you've made this point before. Trust me, we get it.

Fact is, many of us were claiming that the async solution is [anything] but perfect.

Fact was that products that exploited it were too expensive for most of us so we tried more affordable approaches.

Even in the early days it was clear that a well tuned PC and power supply and an isochronous DAC plus isolation sounded better then just a asynchronous DAC alone.

Not sure how much (if any) was done by way of meaningful comparisons. One camp said one thing, another camp said another while you and fmak said the same thing again and again and again . . . Ah, those were the days.

It took Gordon years to (very quietly) admit that there's something else going on. His body Steve N. chimed in with his famous words "It's all common mode noise".

As I recall, the pair of them used to shout from the rooftops that, asynch or not, you still had to use decent PSUs, cables etc etc. These days, they don't post so much.

. . . in my opinion manufacturers are to blame for these slow developments.

Whereas my opinion is that maybe, just maybe, there's more to the topic than your black-and-white scenario suggests. See e.g. the designer's comments on the device this thread is nominally about.

D

" Gordon sold async USB as the holy grail in the early days " , posted on July 8, 2015 at 00:20:25
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	Hi, well on principle it could very well be. Maybe it is just tricky to make it rightly. But the principle sounds very good ... at least the principle. Kind regards, bg

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