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" USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?

85.19.92.6
Posted on May 20, 2015 at 23:55:16
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi
It promises to provide, in addition to power isolation, a "regeneration" of the usb signal feeding the dac.
And to give benefit also to usb dacs with already isolated usb port.
Like a new life for the usb signal ... it sounds interesting.
Anyone who has actually tested/listened this device ?
Do usual usb extenders work on the same principle ?
However i wonder if an added reclocking of the usb signal coming from the pc is really needed given that the usb transfer is normally asynchronous and the final master clock is inside the dac and will define the actual sound.
In the end it is up to the usb receiver to do the final job.
Am i missing something ?
I know already the answer ... many things.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 05:37:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 By far the biggest tweak I have done for my usb signal to my dac. I use the Benchmark II HGC dac. I had been using the iFi Usb power thingy and initially just added the Regen. It made a nice upgrade to the music. Eventually I took out the iFi it seemed to color the sound. But the good news was I freed up the iFi power supply. I tried that and it was better than the Regen supply. I also experimented with a LiFePo4 battery supply. It was good but bested by the iFi.

Bottomline it added depth, reduced glare, just sounded more natural. The degree to which it added air and space around instruments in well recorded stuff was just super imo. For $175 you can't go wrong. Highly recommended.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 05:45:09
Jim Smith
Industry Professional

Posts: 1097
Location: Atlanta, GA area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Mine is on order, but won't be shipped until June.... :(

Best regards,

Jim Smith

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 06:10:09
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 The price is right and looks interesting.

Wall wart looks suspect, though.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 06:17:25
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very useful advice.
a really great little device. May i ask which OS are you using ?
I cannot see it on your system page.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 06:35:02
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the kind advice
I have already a quite good variable PS here that i could use
But if it works great even with a cheap PS means that the concept and its execution are very good indeed.
I am obsessed by noise ... in the mains, in the ps, in the pc ...
Maybe the Tesla powerwall home battery will cure everything ...

The process inside this device is a real mystery to me.
Usb regeneration and reclocking i understand.
But i am reading good opinions about it. Very good actually.
I still have a dream ... to find a device, like this one, that limits the overall performance dependency from what is upstream (i.e. pc HW and OS). That makes everything at least decent a good usb source.
Actually i read about the PCI/e USB cards like the SOtM Audio tX-USBexp Audiophile-quality PCI Express USB Card, but the price is a little on the high side.
And i also prefer something external movable to different system.
But i understand that no one who will buy this device is going to use it with a cheap pc and win 7, to mention a O system that has let down all the experts around here.
I have some test ahead on usb isolators and cables
This device could be the next and i hope definitive step.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 07:36:17
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I'm using a super slimmed version of Windows XP. I toggle between Foobar and JRiver.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 07:54:18
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Further comments on the Regen. It sounds very good with the stock Power supply. But I am an inveterate tweaker. I had the spare supplies so I tried them. If you read the info on Regen in Computer Audiophile you will notice the design has evolved. Firstly it is the brainchild of superstar John Swenson. He noticed some important sonic effects of using upstream USB cables with additional resistance in the ground wire. Uptone (the manufacturer) won't say exactly how much but I tried inserting a 3.3 ohm resistor into the ground wire of a throwaway USB cable. The results were spectacular. No need to do this on any new Regens ordered, all will have the necessary resistance. Bottom line if you use USB get the Regen.

Another point, all stuff upstream of the Regen is still important. Everything matters.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 09:13:42
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi i knew there were the trick.
I am stuck to win 7 but i have a plan to try to slim it down soon.
Instead i had a very good impression with 8.1 with Bing.
Very very musical from what i heard ...
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 09:16:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot again. Very very interesting and helpful.
I have some tests ahead to see if i can avoid another buy.
But in case this device is very high in the most wanted list.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 12:52:23
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Why no the iFI iUSB?

This product looks interesting except for the cheap, campy sales schtick.

"While supplies last!!!".

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 14:01:52
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and yes the iFi iUSB is an excellent product.
But this one promises to do something else.
It does not only act as electrical isolator but as an " USB signal regenerator " (i am not an expert by the way).
I read that it said to be effective also with usb dac already electrically isolated where an isolator would give no benefit (a guy was mentioning benefits using a dac from Ayre for instance. On the same dac an usb power supply would have no effect at all ).
A very interesting unit indeed.
But the proof is in the listening, as always.
And differently from what they say i would try it also with a very cheap pc. I am sure there will be benifits as well.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 16:52:37
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 Maybe you should read the thread. Alex an John have come up with an excellent product. There is nothing cheap or campy.. It is not a sales gimmick at all. Just someone actually being honest. A small business with a small first run... Second Run already sold out also. Not everyone is independent wealthy.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 16:57:46
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Maybe you should have read my post again..I said nothing about the product being cheap or campy.

I actually find it intriguing.

How do YOU know it is an excellent product? Do you own one?

It seems to be no one has heard it before actually purchasing.

And sorry, bud, this IS campy:

"This popular product has been selling VERY quickly. Please do place your order now to be assured of receiving a REGEN in July."

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 17:02:03
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 Read my post... Take some time...

You have have no concept of a small business... Just someone being honest. SMH

 

+1. //nt, posted on May 21, 2015 at 19:38:19
MaxwellP
Audiophile

Posts: 1622
Location: New York
Joined: September 19, 2007
 Nt

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 20:05:09
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Huh?? Small business?

Do you own the product or not. By your lack or response, I am guessing no.

When a large company engages in cheesy marketing it is to stomp all over them but say the same thing about a small one and you have "no concept".

Gimme a break.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 20:22:36
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 You are extremely immature, and your act gets boring after a while. If you are interested do some reading.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 21, 2015 at 20:25:00
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 You are laughable.

So the answer is you don't own one and you are just blowing smoke.

Next.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 22, 2015 at 05:08:48
SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012
 I'm not going to try it until I see the test results from Archimagoo
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 22, 2015 at 07:15:49
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi well that would be nice but i guess also very difficult to perform.
But i am not an expert.
What is interesting of this device is that differently from a normal usb isolator it could be effective with any usb around, isolated or not.
A universally effective device.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 22, 2015 at 08:36:31
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 I believe the above comment was a joke! At least I hope it was.

If you are thinking of the Regen, read all the info on CA. IMO it is an excellent upgrade and well worth the price.

It is the only way one can upgrade USB with MAC minis or notebooks. Even with an upgraded USB card in a desktop system there can be benefit. Maybe not so much with say a PPA studio card but still worth trying IMO.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 22, 2015 at 08:50:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks again for the very helpful advice.
A great device indeed.
One aspect is not clear to me.

Why the need to have a precision clock on the device while the final master clock will be in the dac anyway ?

Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

USB? HORRORS!!!!, posted on May 22, 2015 at 18:49:11
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Who's still using awful old USB these days?

OK, me for a little while.

But when I get the SONOS Connect up and running with the Wyred4sound mods, then I'm doing something else. I'm not sure exactly WHAT. I have no idea how the SONOS system gets stuff off the network storage and into the Connect, much less what happens after that BUT...

If I spend $550 in audiophile upgrades, then it must be OK, right?

I sure hope so.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 22, 2015 at 20:04:45
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

High speed signals such as USB2 (and 3) can degrade quickly. This can affect connection reliability and in case of USB Audio Streaming even produce packet errors.

Given that many "audiophile" USB Cables, for all the (apparent?) improvements they bring deviate substantially from the USB Standard mandated characteristic impedance, this problem seems substantial in audiophile applications.

The process of "re-driving" high speed signals prior to connectors (e.g. at the end of a cable) is well understood and implemented in many high speed systems. In a "streaming" USB system such as USB Audio the improvements could potentially be quite dramatic.

At iFi we have experimented with such systems for a quite a while now (about a year and a halve). They certainly deliver some interesting improvements in USB Audio streaming.

For the specific device, I cannot comment. It may be worth to study the design and see what is inside.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 23, 2015 at 06:18:09
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
I surely did not know that " High speed signals such as USB2 (and 3) can degrade quickly ". This is very bad indeed and i wonder why this standard has been used for this application.
And nobody say nothing ??? nobody protests ?
It seems to me that everything starts from a not suitable standard and then all kind of unbelievable efforts are done to get good performances from it.
Maybe one day i will discover that ethernet is much better than usb for this kind of trasmission. Like a killing game ...
Unbelievable really. Even perverse.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 23, 2015 at 06:46:11
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 "Maybe one day i will discover that ethernet is much better than usb for this kind of trasmission."

Or WiFi!





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

" Or WiFi! ", posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:04:50
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the very interesting reply
But i do not understand how i could connect the dac to the pc in wifi really.
For me to know that usb transmission is not reliable is a puzzling discovery.
Is this related to the length of the connection ? the quality of the cable ?
For now the best result i have achieved sonically is
Pc > usb to aes converter > dac
and the sound is decent.
But i wonder if a chain like Pc > usb dac could give better sound with more simplicity





Kind regards,
bg

 

Use the proper tools or technologies..., posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:11:51
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 USB is engineered for lowest possible cost over short distances with control from a central point. Ethernet is engineered for building wide distances and permits distributed control. Wi-fi is engineered for portability, not performance or reliability. I2S is engineered for communication within a box, especially on a circuit board.








Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:18:56
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> Maybe one day i will discover that ethernet is much better than
> usb for this kind of trasmission.

Good luck. Ethernet is as bad, or worse. It has problems a little different from USB,the principle is the same.

High speed, serialised Data.

In theory, the best is a "dumb" SD Card reader that synchronously reads the data and directly writes to a DAC. But given SD Cards now come with computers on board that remap data, even that route becomes problematic.

That said, USB done to a basically decent level knocks the stuffing out of anything standard SPDIF ever managed.

What it does not do, provide a route for data that is completely impervious to "tweaks" or bad design,or both together.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:27:36
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks again and now i understand more clearly
Implementation is key for performance.
If it is well done even if the standard is flawed the overall outcome will be ok.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:34:50
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> But i do not understand how i could connect the dac to the pc
> in wifi really.

WiFi is just another serialised transport.

Like USB, IEE1394 and Ethernet it packs data into a serial stream. Even SPDIF/AES-EBU, AES-MADI and AES-67/Ravenna are ultimately the same thing.

Some systems are bidirectional on a single link, other are unidirectional. Some include flow control other do not.

But at the bottom we send 16 - 32 Bit Data serialised via some definition and and then decoded.

> For me to know that usb transmission is not reliable is a
> puzzling discovery.

Why should anything be perfect?

> Is this related to the length of the connection ?
> the quality of the cable ?

Both and many other factors too.

Any signal can be degraded sufficiently to cause problems.

This goes into some detail:

http://electronicdesign.com/boards/480-mbitss-signal-integrity-becomes-issue-usb-20-designs

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 24, 2015 at 00:36:32
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thank you very much indeed Mr. Thorsten for your patience and your very valuable support.

However i wonder if a " PCIe to usb adapter card" could give a better usb signal out of the pc ...
i am buying one but not audiophile approved just to try it out.
I see someone recommending the ones with a NEC chip on board.
Maybe it will provide a cleaner/stronger signal on usb ?

Thanks a lot again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: USB? HORRORS!!!!, posted on May 24, 2015 at 01:30:08
SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012
 Considering their main opposition is apple probably not. You can enjoy the adverts more, knowing you've paid into the club.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 16:20:15
ozzyboy
Audiophile

Posts: 334
Joined: April 4, 2002
 I own the PS Audio Direct Stream Dac. I am using a iFi usb power supply and a iFi purifier along with dual headed usb.

So, my question is will adding the Regen offer better performance?
Or Should I use one product or the other?

theob, you commented somewhat on what I am asking, but did you also have the iFi purifier and did you try the usb power supply with dual headed usb's?

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 24, 2015 at 20:09:16
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> I see someone recommending the ones with a NEC chip on board.

Beware, these have some compatibility issues with USB 2.0 devices, especially audio ones.

This chipset is used by an "audiophile" USB Card designed for PCIe add in.
I would suggest to avoid this chip-set.

Anyway, USB Standard compliant Chip-set's should deliver similar drive levels etc., so any material differences are unlikely in the direct USB physical interface. Again, implementation (especially PCB Layout) is crucial here.

The many stories of certain USB ports on PC's and Laptops delivering better/worse performance than others suggest that even major manufacturers do not always get it right.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 01:00:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Thanks a lot again Mr. Thorsten.
I wonder if the regeneration of the usb signal is really the best strategy to get a good usb signal at the dac input.
I would try, instead, to start at pc level with an usb signal of the best quality possible and then try to transmit it without quality loss.

Given that even usb ports on mother boards can suffer from design flaws the solution of an added pci card seems interesting and smart.
I know of the SOTM card ... but it is quite expensive at 350 USD.
Maybe out there a decently performing and cheap card do exist ... of course i am not looking for an high end outcome. Just decent.

Thanks again for the very helpful and interesting advice.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 01:51:01
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Nothing is perfect but if you read all the feedback on the Regen you will see almost unanimous belief/feedback that the Regen improves everything from low cost set ups to very expensive ones. I am very sure that Regen addresses something very fundamental in computer audio. Hey if it makes the Lampi better you have to believe Regen is a solid concept/implementation. At $175 how can you go wrong.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 02:01:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I did not have the iFi purifier and I did not have the Gemini cable. But if you read the description of how Regen works you will conclude that it does not work by reducing external rfi only. It works on reducing the 8 kHz noise created by the USB protocol. Yes the Regen works also on reducing ground noise on the USB ground wire and it does reclock the signal but it's this new 8 kHz noise that it reduces where it differs from all other design implementations.

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 02:17:09
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and i feel the same. If many people say that it improves even high rez systems this means that it works indeed.
This is a cure. I am wondering about a possible prevention i.e. to improve the quality of the usb signal out at pc level and the quality of its transmission to the dac. I have also a weird idea in mind.
To buy a pci-s to usb card and disconnect the usb out power lines.
I mean, leaving connected only the data + and + pins.
Anyway i am expecting this device will flood the market.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 02:54:31
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 See my other post today. Regen addresses the noise created at 8khz by the usb protocol itself. Nobody else does this. Only the Uptone Regen does this, that's why it is unique.

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 03:07:43
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

There is no particular reason to presume that an add-in card provides electrically a different signal from a port build into the motherboard (this is not to say that other factors may not be involved of course).

Nowadays commonly you find a USB Hub integrated into the motherboard which tends to be located close to the USB Ports and act's there as "re-driver". It may be more worthwhile investigating the motherboards.

Non of this of course helps much if you use long USB Cables of questionable quality, in which case re-driving or re-generating the signal at the end of the cable may be the better choice.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 06:05:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Thanks a lot again and very very interesting.
I just wonder if this issue of the poor usb transimission was already known because this device seems the first to address it.
I saw a lot of usb power isolation devices, but this is the first regenerator. I guess many will follow soon.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 06:10:32
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks again.
I am a little puzzled ... i read of a usb dac (the Lampi) that is the end of the world.
And i guess also extremely expensive (do not know the price).
and still a 175 dollar device elevates its performance.
They squeeze the last drop from a dac and then they connect it to the computer with an intrinsically flawed usb connection ????
I wonder we all know what is good and what is not ?
we really know what counts and what is marginal ?
Asynchronous usb transmission has been marketed as a godsend freeing from jitter and clock issues ?
and now we discover that is the classical can full or worms ...
I give up and for now i will wait ...
Maybe in some years time the scenario would be more clear.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 06:36:44
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I think you are over reacting. Nothing is perfect, yes even usb. But to the extent that a particular noise source can be identified and reduced significantly is not a condemnation of usb. It's a cause for celebration. Other means of connecting a pc -> dac (spdif/toslink/ethernet) all have their limitations as well. In fact since Ethernet sends data in packets like usb it is also subject to packet noise.

"Asynchronous usb transmission has been marketed as a godsend freeing from jitter and clock issues ?
and now we discover that is the classical can full or worms"

Never listen to the marketers. Listen to the engineers.

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 07:59:17
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> I just wonder if this issue of the poor usb transimission was
> already known

Did you happen to read the article I referenced?

> because this device seems the first to address it.

USB Repeaters and active USB Cables have been long used outside audio (and by some within).

The first specifically High End Audio targeted use of a USB Hub Chip to re-drive the USB Signal (IIRC) was/is the Shiit Wyred.

That is unless we count the AMR CAS Setup, which was "dealer only - not for resale" Job (sold at our cost to our Partners - as most dealers/distributors of ours were unwilling to set up PC's for this themselves) and meant to demo AMR's DP-777 DAC.

This included a (commercial) active USB Cable, which we found to provide a material improvements over passive cables, but for a number of reasons we did not commercialise that system at the time for High End Audio. With hindsight perhaps a lost opportunity.

> I saw a lot of usb power isolation devices, but this is the
> first regenerator. I guess many will follow soon.

Well, I guess they all follow the Shiit Wyred, or the Belkin active USB Cable we used at AMR...

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 08:25:55
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and yes you are right ... i over-reacted
But you talk about " the noise created at 8khz by the usb protocol itself ". I guess this noise should show up in some measurements
Instead i see many usb dacs with impressive low noise throughout the audio band.
Should i not see some peaks around 8kHz in the noise graphs ?
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 09:05:11
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 " Did you happen to read the article I referenced? "

i see. It was well known but maybe considered not important.
Now i see some agreement that is indeed important.
So i expect other devices addressing the issue soon on the market


" USB Repeaters and active USB Cables have been long used outside audio (and by some within). The first specifically High End Audio targeted use of a USB Hub Chip to re-drive the USB Signal (IIRC) was/is the Shiit Wyred. That is unless we count the AMR CAS Setup, which was "dealer only - not for resale" Job (sold at our cost to our Partners - as most dealers/distributors of ours were unwilling to set up PC's for this themselves) and meant to demo AMR's DP-777 DAC.
This included a (commercial) active USB Cable, which we found to provide a material improvements over passive cables, but for a number of reasons we did not commercialise that system at the time for High End Audio. With hindsight perhaps a lost opportunity. "

well i understand that audio high end is a niche.
And pro users probably they just listen for major drops or issues.


" Well, I guess they all follow the Shiit Wyred, or the Belkin active USB Cable we used at AMR...
Ciao T "

Probably i just got carried away by the prose used in the reviews.
Sometimes they exaggerate about the actual improvements.
Thanks again for the valuable advice.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 12:51:11
Serge_S
Audiophile

Posts: 112
Location: NYS
Joined: March 13, 2012
 Hi T,

'Good luck. Ethernet is as bad, or worse. It has problems a little different from USB,the principle is the same.'

Do you mean the quality of the audio is bad or do you refer to dropouts?

Thanks,
Serge

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 13:32:57
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
 If you are looking for a card to improve the USB of you system I would highly recommend the PPA card. Much less than the STOM and better sounding IMO.

 

RE: " Or WiFi! ", posted on May 25, 2015 at 13:53:59
Nick77
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Location: Austin Tx
Joined: February 13, 2012
 +1 on the PPA cards, good price also.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 15:24:40
coli
 d

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 19:44:51
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

The Issue that has been made prominent in the context of the Gizmo being discussed is what I would call "frame noise". In any serial transmission system Data is packed into some form frame with distinct "boundary markers".

In USB 2 the main frame rate is 1mS (1kHz) which for High Speed is subdivided into 8 microframes each 125uS long with space (including frame markers and other overheads) for up to 60kb worth of data.

Usually not the whole 60k is used and often it is shared between multiple devices - each of which may have a "packet" of data. The theoretical limit is 13 bulk packets per microframe. This is not achievable with current host controllers, which can receive 10 bulk
packets/microframe or send 8 bulk packets/microframe.

So we have frame noise at 1kHz and 8kHz and Packet noise at theoretically 13 * 8kHz (104kHz) but in practice 64kHz (8 Microframes with 8 bulk packets) or less if using isochronous streaming (most USB audio).

Now the processing in frames and microframes may cause a cyclic load on the supply and if much error correction etc. is needed the load may increase. Such cyclic load may modulate the power-supply and cause problems if for example it is allowed to modulate audio clocks.

Perhaps surprisingly (or not) the mechanism is almost entirely analogous (or parallel) to the one in CD Transports where despite 100% error free reading of data sonic differences are observed between clean and dirty CD's, with the application of CD-mats etc. et al.

Incidentally, the varying PSU load (and the resultant noise) due to different frame fill factor with data packets and different data in packets is what I would class as the second kind of "packet noise" and it is semi-random but data related in nature, so in some ways more pernicious and harder to treat (again, similar issues apply for example to SPDIF) than the 1kHz and 8kHz frame noise which competent power supply design should control well (the emphasis being competent and should).

Is Ethernet (or WiFi, or MADI or anything else) free from framed/packetised processing? Nope, like any serial system this is how it works so it faces the same issues, just at different frequencies.

Most "coockie cutter" USB (and ethernet and other) Circuitry treats the clock as bad as old style low end CD-Players (powersupplies shared with transport, physical decoding layer and microprocessors, so noisy and modulated by many factors).

Frame noise, packet noise and other noise sources on the USB Power line can impact the clock and thus the audio even if the data is 100% correct. Pretty much any of the "turnkey" USB Solutions is very bad in this respect. I know not one commercial off the shelf module or Chip Manufacturers reference design that is better than "absolutely terrible" (I do not know all of them, only most) in this respect.

Any self respecting high end audio designer of course would look at such designs and fix the inherent problems in the reference designs and not use third part modules of questionable design. Looking inside much commercial gear makes me ask if there is a lack of self respect among high end audio designers or a lack of high end audio designers who understand digital and USB sufficiently well.

What is the bottom line?

As long as the system is correctly designed to avoid cross-contamination of clocks (and grounds/power supplies etc.) and as long as the cable length is kept reasonable within the design limits of the systems and as long as appropriate quality and electrical specification cables are used, non of these problems (degraded Signal Integrity, Frame/Packet noise induced jitter etc.) should be observable.

If these problems are observable they indicate a fundamental design flaw. Which is not to say that they are not observable on much of the gear/cables out there.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 00:13:56
SBGK
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Joined: March 22, 2012
 interesting explanation of usb

why call it a gizmo ? I believe it's got a name ? Is it any different to your gizmos ? Best to stick to facts.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 01:43:38
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> why call it a gizmo ?

I could have used Widget instead. The aim was to not directly name a specific product, but rather cater to the fundamentals of the technology involved.

I have no problems with anyone calling my stuff "Gizmo", as long as they append "ueberkool" in front (joke)... :P

> interesting explanation of usb

You can amuse yourself with the gory details at www.usb.org

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

" Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 26, 2015 at 03:52:00
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi !
so in the end the Regen reduces jitter present in the usb connection ?
this is interesting.
I did not know that usb transmission can have jitter. I thought it was only an issue with spdif.
I think that we will see many of these regenerators quite soon.
I did not know about this new jitter ...
The Regen is for usb a little like what the Monarchy Anti-jitter is for spdif ?
thanks a lot for the valuable information.
Kind regards,
bg

 

And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 06:41:44
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Which one was designed for streaming audio again?

Sorry, I keep forgetting.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

USB signal integrity and packet coding, posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:07:45
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 One difference between USB and Ethernet is that USB uses bit stuffing to frame the packets. This means that the time on media varies according to the data being set. When USB carries audio data, this means that the power supply load will vary according to the audio signal being transmitted, adding a unique mechanism for noise modulation.

A second difference between USB and Ethernet is the poor error detection capabilities of USB, with the use of a 16 bit CRC vs. Ethernet's 32 bit CRC. The situation is made worse with USB due to the use of bit stuffing. In the event of marginal transmitters, cables and receivers, there will be a radically higher chance of corrupted packets arriving. In some cases there can be systemic problems as well. Note that a single bit error will misframe subsequent audio signals and may produce loud error bursts. A single bit error over Ethernet will only corrupt a single PCM sample, which at worst will be heard as a click. If USB is used to carry DSD via the DoP kluge, then there is a further failure mode associated with missynchronization generated by a single bit error.

I have hated the USB technology since its very beginning, because of its use of bit-stuffing for packet framing, a terrible idea dating back to the the mid-1970's when logic circuits were horrendously expensive. There are real problems with this coding (based on IBM's SDLC technology) that make it inappropriate to be used in noisy environments where there might be questionable signal integrity. The use of boutique USB cables that do not meet specifications is completely absurd given this weak design.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:11:44
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 My post listed four technologies. Of the four, only I2S was originally designed for streaming audio.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:14:38
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 My post listed four technologies. Of the four, only I2S was originally designed for streaming audio.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:41:48
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 USB is engineered for lowest possible cost over short distances with control from a central point.

Perhaps more accurate to say USB is typically engineered for lowest possible cost . . .

My post listed four technologies. Of the four, only I2S was originally designed for streaming audio.

Well, yes and no. IIRC, USB had, for technically sound reasons, a separate Audio class, if not from the off, then very soon after.

Some argue that I2S was never really designed, just cobbled together as a temporary fix but that it sort of stuck around.

 

RE: And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:47:52
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 From your original post: "I2S is engineered for communication within a box, especially on a circuit board"

How is "on a circuit board" helpful for streaming audio? Or do you suggest that audio only be 'streamed' on a circuit board?


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:58:29
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 The audio streams from place A to place B. This can be from one part of a chip to another, from one part of a circuit board to another, from one circuit board in a box to another, from one box in a room to another, from one room in a building to another, from one campus to another, etc...

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 27, 2015 at 05:11:09
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 Is anybody hard wiring this?

Any suggestions for a good bang for the buck usb /spdif converter that would play particularly nice w the Regen?

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 05:49:13
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> I did not know that usb transmission can have jitter.
> I thought it was only an issue with spdif.

We need to separate things here.

Jitter means that a given digital signal has modulations in the timing. Any digital signal send between units or even across a few mm PCB trance will have jitter. If this jitter is too large the signal transmission will be corrupted. If the jitter is low enough, no data corruption is observed and the digital link transmits it's data with 100% accuracy.

As such Ethernet, SPDIF, USB, IEE1394, ST-Optical etc. et all will have jitter in the actual signal on the cable.

We have a second area where in Digital Audio we talk about jitter. That is in Analogue to Digital, Digital to Analogue or Digital to Digital Conversion. Here we have one (or in case of DDC two) clocks which is used to sample an analogue signal into the digital domain or render a digital signal into the analogue domain or from one digital clock domain into a different one.

Key here is that the data is converted in relation to a clock. In an ideal world this clock has no phase-noise and is absolutely stable. Then the conversion is perfect.

If the Clock(s) is (are) "jittered", the result is not accurate and the error is ir-removably embedded in the conversion result. So, the key issue is to minimise the amount of jitter in the clock(s) that drives the conversion(s), regardless ofjitter elsewhere in the system.

So no matter if the jitter of the USB (or other digital signal) is reduced or not, there is no direct link to the audio signal (digital or analogue) degradation due to clock jitter following the conversion.

For any digital system we can construct a clock system that is not affected by the source, within the dynamic range of the system. For USB this is especially easy (it is so simple, it makes shooting fish in a barrel look like a highly skilled job), as with asynchronous USB we have "flow control" and can use a fixed clock on the DAC.

For reference, here the J-Test spectrum of both a 16 Bit and 24 Bit J-Test signal, measured using an AP2 test system. The DAC was attached to a Motherboard Port (e.g. not front panel) on a generic AS-Rock AMD system and is powered from the USB Bus power. The Cable used is most likely Belkin (something for 39.90 US or so), I cannot remember for sure, but I have several in the lab, 1.5m or 2m long. It definitely is USB2 certified.

The computer used hosts the AP2 as well and no optimisation whatsoever, except making sure that enough ASIO Buffers are set in the Driver is on this system. The AP2 software can consume a fair bit of CPU power while running.

16 Bit J-Test:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

24 Bit J-Test:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

In effect there is no visible jitter, for want of a better word, the result is "perfect". The slight "skirting" is down to the number of averages and the window function used.

So, standard PC, standard Windows (XP) OS, standard USB Cable, USB powered DAC, no jitter observable in the audio output. Where there is no observable jitter there is no way to reduce it.

Does re-driving the USB signal make an audible difference with this DAC? Good question...

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:02:54
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 So how do we know that Frame noise is real and can affect the USB transmission? Here the 16-Bit USB J-Test spectrum of a four figure price (in USD) USD DAC that does show a disturbing amount of frame noise from the micro-frame frequency (8kHz).

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

This is taken from Stereophile without permission (sorry) and I have taken it deliberately out of context to avoid identifying the product in question.
Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:09:58
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting lab results.
The graphs look very nicely clean.
And i guess in this case of course there is no need of regeneration.
And this suggests me that this need depends on the specific case.
I think that in the end the advantage of USB over spdif justify some efforts in its set-up. I like the idea to have the reference clock inside the dac instead of rely on the source.
I also understand that not all usb dac have a well designed/realized usb interface.
i will go on with the tests and try different cables in the next future for sure, keeping the usb link as short as possible and listen.
I think i have a better ear than brain ...
Thanks a lot again
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:23:19
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

> And this suggests me that this need depends on the specific case.

This tends to my point in all these exchanges. There are a few ways to do things right and many to do it wrong.

> I think that in the end the advantage of USB over spdif justify
> some efforts in its set-up.

Funny you mention SPDIF.

In all the years I also figured out how to do the same thing for SPDIF. The following is the spectrum (24 Bit J-Test) of a SPDIF signal with 50,000pS of 200Hz square-wave jitter deliberately added (the AP2 has such a function).

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

The upper trace is this SPDIF signal decoded using a "standard" SPDIF receiver (in case you ever wondered what 50,000ps of 200Hz square-wave jitter do to an Audio Signal).

The lower trace is the same signal, but here the clock system that I designed a while back for a very high end DAC is used instead, as we can see, another "perfect" result.

So, again, what matters most is how things are designed. If we understand the problems and requirements - then with sufficient diligence we will find and implement solutions that solve the problems and fulfil the requirements, even with systems that are by design sub-optimal for the given job.

And guess what, this kind of USB and SPDIF performance is standard for any of the digital products I have a hand in, from the cheapest sub 200 USD USB DAC all the way to the "Ultra High End" Tube output DAC...

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:54:06
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Very interesting again Mr. Thorsten. Thanks a lot.
With reference to the graph if i understand well in the top trace the clock is set by the source, while in the bottom trace the clock is the one of the receiving dac ?
Very interesting because it shows that reclocking when done right can have spectacular results in terms of jitter reduction.
Very impressive performance indeed.
However i think i have understood the basics. More or less ... but the all issue is extremely complex.
Just a last curiosity ... in the case of the top trace this high jitter is heard during the listening ? which the main effects on sound ?
less focus ? more distortion ?
Thanks a lot again for the very kind and precious advice.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 07:16:26
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Hi,

Yes, the upper trace is the standard SPDIF receiver PLL with around 20kHz bandwidth, any jitter below 20kHz rides through, only above 20kHz is there any appreciable attenuation.

The lower trace uses a local clock, correct, but without resorting to Sample Rate conversion etc., the principle is actually quite similar to the NAIM DAC clock, the main difference, where the NAIM DAC has 10 total selectable frequencies, our system literally has billions of them, with a single minimum clock step measured in ppb (parts per billion).

As to "is this kind of jitter audible", given that it creates a massive rise in noisefloor and around an effective dynamic range of worse than K7 tape without Dolby, I would expect so. I never listed to this and I cannot use the AP2 to impose this kind of jitter on external (music) signals.

This might an interresting field of research, but I am swamped as is...

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: And of the three, USB, WiFi and Ethernet..., posted on May 27, 2015 at 07:33:16
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "Some argue that I2S was never really designed, just cobbled together as a temporary fix but that it sort of stuck around."

And was (at least initially) only aimed at on-board chip-chip communication. i.e. no ESD protection required.

R.

 

RE: " Directstream is super sensitive to input jitter, adding a regen will most likely help.", posted on May 27, 2015 at 10:11:56
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and great performance indeed.
It is impressive the difference between what gets in and what gets out.
I did not think it were possible. I have always been quite skeptical of jitter reducing circuits, like after the damage to the signal is done there is no way to repair.
But then this could be also possible for usb transmission i guess.
And also quite easily measured. A test signal with a lot of jitter and see what comes out.
Very interesting indeed. Thanks again for the very clear graphs.
They explain very well what is going on.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 28, 2015 at 12:17:57
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Well from what i understand any usb devices should have a boost in performance using the Regen.
I am sorry but i cannot suggest any usb /spdif converter because i have a low quality playback system, not resolving enough i mean.
But if you ask this specific question here you will get many valuable recommendations.
However the one in the link looks really serious.
Good luck !
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 28, 2015 at 12:59:17
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009



lokie, check this out: GUSTARD U12 32Bit / 384KHz XMOS USB Digital Audio Interface. I've been running one for about six months. It's self powered. I'm very pleased with it.

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 29, 2015 at 04:12:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi may i ask you:

1) which source are you using ?
2) which output of the U12 ?
3) which dac ?
4) any power conditioning device (like power filters or similar) ?

Thanks a lot, gino
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 29, 2015 at 11:42:06
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 beppe61,

1. Source: Mac Mini (Late 2012) with Computer Audio Design OSX Optimization Script V1.3 (OS X 10.10.3) USB out.

2. U12 out: Coax out to Musical Fidelity V90, (Oyaide DR-510 1 meter coaxial cable or DIY 1.5 meter cat 6 wire with Vampire RCA's).

3. Pwr Conditioning: Tripp-Lite 1800 line conditioner to a DIY Hydra Power Conditioner (modified power strip with cryoed Pass & Seymour 5362 recepticles and noise suppression capacitors. Two Hammond 193L chokes.

pixelphoto (Marvin)

 

RE: " USB REGEN " by UpTone Audio ... any opinions ?, posted on May 30, 2015 at 04:57:02
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot indeed for the very helfpul reply.
Actually i have the feeling that some kind of power conditioning could be very beneficial. The U12 has no filtering on the mains socket and i see many digital equipment with toroidals using filter on the mains input.
I understand instead that you are not using anything on the usb input (i.e. isolators, usb power supply devices, etc.)
I am using a cheap Teradak U9 usb power supply to isolate the usb input from the pc.
I guess the Regen would be even better. I am thinking seriously about it. It promises to improve any usb device, even power isolated ones.
A very interesting device and the feedbacks from users are all positive.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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