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Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues.....

50.183.218.111
Posted on January 24, 2015 at 13:22:00
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Interesting video whether you agree or disagree with it. He's not really slamming just Pono but the mixing / mastering process, brickwall limiting, etc. So maybe they'll fix it. It's a rather long video but also pretty interesting if you can sit through most of it.

 

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Unknown artist? (NT), posted on January 24, 2015 at 15:35:42
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 24, 2015 at 17:23:55
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 What an angry no name loser. Yest again anonymous douchebag with a some video editing software and an internet connection. Dangerous.

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 24, 2015 at 21:41:10
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Like many online users they don't provide their full name. Do you? I believe his first name is Adam of RealHomeRecording.com












 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 25, 2015 at 10:08:01
Goober58
 First and foremost what I find striking about it is the ignorance of the artists and the public (not intended as being a derogatory) on display. It's actually quite overwhelming.

Secondly I mostly agree with the guys POV. Not only does he call out the hubris behind the PONO he also calls out the hubris behind high definition audio. And he seems to have the same view of CD v. vinyl as I do - ie. CDs can be better than vinyl.

A relatively unknown with a reasonable and pragmatic take on the state of audio and the digital recording/mastering process. He's going to have few friends.

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 25, 2015 at 10:29:36
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 Next to jitter, I have found digital filters to be the next most offensive to achieving good digital sound.

In the video he calls full compression brick-wall limiting. Probably a recording engineer term.

I don't know the details of the reference tracks that were used for comparison, but he may be right that the HD versions were not compressed or compressed less than the CD tracks.

His point that most recordings have been trashed by compression is true. He is saying that the problem is not so much hi-res as it is compression in the mixing room. I agree. He does kind of beat the dead-dog though....

The amazing thing is that Pono generated so much cash from people on kickstarter. Hundreds of thousands of people were duped into supporting something that already exists and is essentially free.

At least this gives an idea of the support for hi-fidelity music. That is encouraging. It has definitely not died out. The celebrity name has brought this to the forefront and into social media.

Whether or not it will change the way that recordings are made is yet to be seen. Most recording engineers will still mix to make it sound good on a boombox or cheap car stereo, using lots of compression.

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 25, 2015 at 12:37:40
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 That is all I need to know.

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 25, 2015 at 12:40:10
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 "Most recording engineers will still mix to make it sound good on a boombox or cheap car stereo."

No they don't. Many mix for iPods and white ear buds and shitty computer speakers.

 

Duped? Free?, posted on January 25, 2015 at 21:07:26
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 "Hundreds of thousands of people were duped into supporting something that already exists and is essentially free."

Yes, HDT and other hi-rez outlets previously existed. And, yes, A&K made a portable player capable of hi-rez playback. But I don't see how anyone was "duped". And it's a sad day when a high-end manufacturer fails to appreciate how Pono might lead to widespread adoption of CD and higher resolution and, possibly, better mastering. Without a lot of searching, I found a 24 bit title on Pono that is not available at HDT. "Dupe" me some more, Pono!

And which part is "essentially" free?

 

"You cannot hyper-compress vinyl", posted on January 26, 2015 at 07:58:31
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 BS! I've got quite a few that exhibit virtually no dynamic range.

Yeah, baby those 7" 45s are really slammin'!

 

+1, posted on January 26, 2015 at 10:38:49
Goober58
 People seem to forget, or maybe even never knew, that a music signal is compressed/eq'd as it is etched into a vinyl groove. And for whatever it's worth I remember this conversation about loudness wars long before the CD era.

And maybe it's just me and the music I am buying, but I haven't noticed newer music being worse sounding than ever. Quality/character has always been a crapshoot.

Now I admit FM rock radio broadcasts sound much worse as do mp3s. But I listen to very little FM and only get compressed resolution when watching music videos. But the stuff I buy or download sounds as good, or even better, than the stuff I was buying 40 years ago. Maybe I'm a more skilled buyer and/or maybe I've got better gear.

And of course there's a whole industry (audiophile recordings now hi-rez) being sustained by this ongoing debate.

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 26, 2015 at 17:22:45
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 ""Most recording engineers will still mix to make it sound good on a boombox or cheap car stereo."

No they don't. Many mix for iPods and white ear buds and shitty computer speakers.


Either way: music for idiots marketed to idiots to be played on machines owned by idiots.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Ranting about brickwall filtering and other issues....., posted on January 26, 2015 at 17:23:56
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 hard to argue with that.

 

RE: Duped? Free?, posted on January 26, 2015 at 21:19:20
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 Duped into thinking that 24/192 sample rate was somehow new and needed the kickstarter funding to be developed. Duped into thinking that there are no other portable or other players for that matter that play 24/192.

The Pono A/B tests in the video could have been done with other players and other HD tracks. Pono player and kickstarter campaign was not necessary to do this study.

The public still does not learn that this advancement in the state of the art has been going on for a long time and it is not a Pono invention. They still don't know about all of the other companies creating great hardware and software to do hi-res.

The real Pono purpose should be to motivate recording studios to create 24/192 tracks and make that content available, but if the content is over-compressed it may not be any better than the 44.1. Pono can offer lots of 24/192 tracks for download, but only if the recording studios create it and make it available.

I'm not convinced that it was necessary to do a hardware component to Pono. They are evidently abandoning this aspect.

 

Disagree, posted on January 27, 2015 at 07:34:30
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 I don't recall NY/Pono ever claiming they invented 24/192. Did I miss that? I do recall that HDT got some press when Pono was ramping up one year ago. If you typed "Pono" into your preferred search engine, chances are you would see something about HDT. Regardless, I completely disagree that Pono "duped" their kickstarter supporters.

As far as a player, what else was available one year other than the $$$ A&K units? I'm not super interested in portable units but I do read audio magazines/websites and the A&K was the only one I knew of - at a price far more than the Pono. Did you expect Pono to get the masses to switch to hi-rez by having them use a player that costs north of $1K?

"The real Pono purpose should be to motivate recording studios to create 24/192 tracks and make that content available"
What, out of the goodness of their hearts? It's a business venture (which might be why they aren't going out of their way to advertise for HDT). Maybe there are "better" ways this could have been done, but you have to admit that they generated FAR more publicity for hi rez files (and, hopefully, better recording/mastering) than all other previous efforts combined.

Sure, there things about Pono to criticize, but please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

RE: Duped? Free?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 08:03:36
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 "Duped into thinking that 24/192 sample rate was somehow new.."

Where did they ever say that??

"Duped into thinking that there are no other portable or other players for that matter that play 24/192."

Where the heck did you get that? The A&K player was on the cover of Stereophile a year ago. There are at least 25 + portable players that do 192 and even DSD.

"The public still does not learn that this advancement in the state of the art has been going on for a long time and it is not a Pono invention."

Nobody ever said it was.

"They still don't know about all of the other companies creating great hardware and software to do hi-res."

Whose problem is that, Pono's? The public also does not know we could have all been driving electric cars and be done with fossil fuels.

"I'm not convinced that it was necessary to do a hardware component to Pono."

I agree with this.

 

RE: Disagree, posted on January 27, 2015 at 08:09:12
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Agree..this nit picking seems to get more bizarre as the days pass..see my response..

As far as portable players there have been a good dozen around going back a a year..several from well known, but small asian manufacturers and even HiFiMan in the US. Fiio is another one.

Now the market is exploding, but I, like you, have little interest.

Even an iPhone, with the right apps, like the Onkyo app, can play FLAC and high rez.

 

RE: Duped? Free?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 09:40:30
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "The public also does not know we could have all been driving electric cars and be done with fossil fuels."

Really? How? Do you know of some battery technology that I am unaware of?

I have looked into battery technology several times, and the only company that claimed to have suitable performing batteries (actually ultra-capacitors) never delivered a product. My recommendation at the time to a friend was not to invest in the company as it was likely to be a scam.

If you know of interesting battery suppliers or technologies, I would definitely be interested in hearing about them and would even consider investing in them if they were to pass due diligence.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Duped? MQA?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 10:55:54
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1846
Joined: March 31, 2008
 "Duped into thinking that 24/192 sample rate was somehow new.."

When Pono started to generated publicity somewhere in 2012 there was indeed a talk about an exciting new music format. There was also a talk about a streaming service of course in the same quality “as the musician hears it”. (Don’t think they had stage monitors in mind when they claimed this).
Now PCM is not really new (Alec Reeves, 1937).
However, at that time Pono was collaborating with Meridian.
My guesswork is that the initial plans might have been to use Meridian’s MQA, hence the “exiting new format”.

The Well Tempered Computer

 

Thanks for that piece of the puzzle, posted on January 27, 2015 at 11:19:11
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 That jogged my memory that there *was* a question of what format Pono would use.

But I have to shake my head at Steve Nugent who, for some reason (conflating the unknown Meridian format for "duping" kickstarters?), felt compelled to publicly pee on Pono. Pono is not beyond criticism but computer audiophiles, I think, would be smart to support it, not knee-cap it!

 

Not to the same level.., posted on January 27, 2015 at 12:22:49
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...Not to the same level that you can to CDs or music files

 

RE: Disagree, posted on January 27, 2015 at 12:44:02
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 I think the Pono kickstarter funds would have been better spent on subsidizing the recording companies to offer 24/192 "master" tracks as downloads. Pono could establish a standard (including compression limits and formats) and if the recording meets the standard, they get subsidized. This way there is an immediate financial incentive to offer 24/192 and all of us get the benefit of downloading these hi-res tracks.

Then the standard could have been proposed to Apple and Samsung so that their next generation phones and tablets would have this capability. This is the way to get it to the masses, not offering a proprietary player hardware and a licensing scheme. How many people want a cell-phone and a portable music player?

 

Disagree some more, posted on January 27, 2015 at 13:01:32
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 "better spent on subsidizing the recording companies to offer 24/192 "master" tracks as downloads"

That's one alternative model but I don't know it is any better than what they did, ie, making 24/192 available on the Pono store and letting the market decide whether to grow 24/192 offerings. Regardless, how can you not appreciate what NY has done to bring awareness to this issue? Geez, louise!

And I just don't get your criticism of the player. As Sprezza Tura has written elsewhere on this forum, the player is just a side show to the main attraction. You, yourself, have already pointed out that there are devices other than the Pono player that can decode hi-rez PCM, why do Apple and Samsung need a "standard"? The "proprietary player" is simply an affordable (compared to a $2400 A&K) vehicle that lets users experience what is possible with hi-rez files.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for you to explain the "something . . . that is essentially free" that we could have if Pono hadn't butted in.

 

RE: Disagree some more, posted on January 27, 2015 at 15:01:09
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 spot on.

I think Steve is operating under the assumption, as some do, that as Apple does, everyone follows...

If Apple made a hirez player with the same specs and pricing as the Pono player the apple fan boys would be writing long lover letter posts and tripping over them selves to grab their credit cards.

 

RE: Duped? MQA?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 15:04:03
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Yes, that is true, and NY and Pono smartly walked away from Meridian because we need a new "format" like a bullet in the head...

So I see that as a smart move.

When Meridian fully explains and rolls out MQS, or is it MQC format I will certainly be open minded and curious...

EDIT: I see it is MQA..for Master Quality Audio?

 

RE: Duped? MQA?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 15:34:15
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 1846
Joined: March 31, 2008
 Master Quality Authenticated
Meridian is not very clear where this is about but of course you hear exactly what the musicians are hearing (stage monitors?) and it is smaller than a high res PCM and is lossless at 16/44 so probably something Redbook with something compressed for the remainder?????
The Well Tempered Computer

 

RE: Duped? MQA?, posted on January 27, 2015 at 17:24:15
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Interesting. Thank you for the follow up. Keeping an open mind. I am ALL for authenticated quality.

 

RE: Disagree some more, posted on January 28, 2015 at 11:03:49
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 Apple and Samsung need a standard so they will not screw-up the SQ and make it as cheap as possible. This should include THD and Freq resp specs as well as the CODEC quality and file format etc..

What was essentially free and already existing is the 24/192 format. Not new. No development costs required.

 

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