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need help understanding external hard drives

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Posted on December 7, 2014 at 18:38:13
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Hello - I have been reading all kinds of things about computer audio here and elsewhere and am now thoroughly confused. I have an old MacBook Pro (from about 2007 or 2008), and am about to buy a brand new one. I have been advised to buy an external hard drive to back up my files, and to easily transfer them to the new computer via Time Machine.

However, I also am going to move to a computer based digital system, as my CD player has just died and I don't want to purchase another. I have just bought a Dragonfly v1.2. I need to rip all of my CDs, which I would like to store on an external hard drive. I have been reading that I should not use a USB one so there is no Synchronous Conflict with my Dragonfly USB DAC?? I have read that I should use a Firewire 800 model for my old MacBook, however I also read that new ones do not support Firewire 800?? Am I therefore going to have to purchase two different external hard drives, one to back up my old computer and transfer everything to the new one, and then a separate one to use for ripping my CDs on the new computer? Or is there one I can buy that is not too expensive which will accomplish everything I need to do?? Should I begin ripping my CDs into iTunes now on my current machine, or wait to get a new one??

I have zero experience with any of the above, and am very confused by all this. Any advice would be very much appreciated. A search of the archives has not really helped me much.

 

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Is this going to be, posted on December 8, 2014 at 00:56:10
JeffH
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: Orange County, So Cal
Joined: April 5, 2000
 a dedicated laptop for music? You could go with a Mini and use a Ipad/Iphone to control the music.

Approx. how many CD's are you going to be ripping?

There is nothing wrong with using an external hard drive to store your music. Many do this with really good results. External HD's are relatively cheap. You could buy one and compare the sound of files kept on your internal hard drive and files kept on the USB HD. I seriously doubt you'll hear a difference....but some do...or think they do...or something like that :)

Some use SSD drives for operating system and reg hard drive for music. Nice, but certainly not mandatory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_71bUMAMkA

When it's all said and done, I think you'll find that the DAC/convertor will make the single biggest difference in sound. Do other things make SQ differences? Sure, but not to the degree of the DAC. Can you hear the differences in CD players? Let say from a cheap 120 buck sony to a 4k Wadia? Same concept here.

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 04:24:24
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1990
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 OWC Mac Sales still sells high quality fire wire cases. They were discounted a few months ago.

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 05:07:15
mwheelerk
Audiophile

Posts: 434
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Joined: December 27, 2005
 It is generally thought best to have your DAC and external HDD not share the same hub so if you have USB DAC you would want to use FireWire or Thunderbolt connections for your external HDD.

We are facing a similar dilemma. In my case I would like to increase the size of my external HDD from 2GB each to 4GB each. "Daisy chaining" two FireWire 800 HDD has worked well for me but most HDD are now USB3 or Thunderbolt connections. My 2010 Mac Mini does not support Thunderbolt and I would prefer not using USB since that is my DAC connection. So the choices are:

1. Use the USB for the HDD
2. Search Internet in hopes of finding HDD with FireWire 800
3. Upgrade Mac Mini to Thunderbolt device and purchase two 4TB Thunderbolt HDD

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 07:20:33
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46306
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 You DO NOT need to use a non-USB external drive even if you choose to use a USB DAC. However, you should try to ensure that the USB DAC and the USB drive are not sharing the same USB bus within the computer.

This will likely happen automatically on the new Mac if you use a USB 3.0 external drive. This drive will 'grab' a "USB 3.0 SuperSpeed Bus" while the DAC will 'grab' a USB High-Speed Bus (which is USB 2.0). If this doesn't happen automatically, you can experiment with plugging your devices into the different USB ports on your computer while using the System Information utility to monitor the USB Bus & Hubs. See pictures below.

System Information: You can get to this utility by typing it in a Spotlight search, or via About this Mac under the Apple icon > More Info > System Report > USB.

System Information > USB
Notice the PS Audio DAC on the USB High-Speed Bus and the Inatek Generic USB Device on the USB 3.0 SuperSpeed Bus. The Inatek is a case that houses my SSD which is attached via USB 3.0.


System Information > USB
In this example, I plugged in the ADATA USB thumb drive. You can see it above the Inatek. Again, it 'grabbed' the USB 3.0 SuperSpeed Bus and is not on the same Bus as the PS Audio DAC.


I would not start ripping your CDs until you get your new Mac. You will need an external USB DVD/CD drive. Enjoy.


 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 08:35:58
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 Everyone else's answers are good. Here are a couple more thoughts.

1. If the drive is just for backup, it can be FW 400/800, or USB 2/3. There won't be any conflict or over-use of resources unless you are backing up while listening.

2. If you use the drive to transfer files to the new machine, why not just connect the drive, either via USB or FW, and copy the files to it, rather than get into Time Machine? Just grab them and drag them to the drive. Simple is sometimes good.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 09:54:42
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46306
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 1. If the drive is just for backup, it can be FW 400/800, or USB 2/3. There won't be any conflict or over-use of resources unless you are backing up while listening.

He mentioned using an external drive for his music content, not just for backing up. Using a USB 3.0 drive will almost certainly ensure that he will not be on the same bus as his USB DAC. This will not be the case if he uses a USB 2.0 drive.

He can still manually ensure that his USB 2.0 drive is not in conflict with the DAC by trying different USB ports and looking in System Information for the USB Device Tree.

My main point was that it is not necessary to use a different interface type (like FW or Thunderbolt) for his external disk while using a USB DAC, although that would be the 'no brainer' course of action. ;-)

2. If you use the drive to transfer files to the new machine, why not just connect the drive, either via USB or FW, and copy the files to it, rather than get into Time Machine? Just grab them and drag them to the drive. Simple is sometimes good.

Drag and drop may work fine for some things but unless he's intimately familiar with iTunes settings and it's database, just dragging and dropping folders may not work properly.

Time Machine is fine if you're backing up and restoring on the same machine.... and for some things going from an old machine to a new one. If you're moving from an old machine to a new one, you might be better served by using the Apple Migration Assistant.

In my opinion, he will be better off getting his new Mac setup first before ripping his CD collection..... instead of ripping on his old Mac then having to move things over. Just my 2-cents worth.


 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:39:37
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Hi everyone, and thanks for the responses! I am still confused on the external hard drive choices. Your responses give me the impression that this perhaps isn't a big deal, and I can choose whatever? I have read about synching issues if the external hard drive is USB, since I have the Dragonfly, which is also USB - Abe's posts imply this is not an issue. I know that the new Macs don't have Firewire, but do have Thunderbolt. Can I assume that my current Mac will support a Thunderbolt drive?

I do not have a network setup, so this is why I was told by the Apple people to use Time Machine and an external hard drive to do the transfer of files from my old machine to the new. Apparently this is a very easy thing to do. I was assuming that therefore I could rip the CDs on my current machine, and avoid buying an external DVD/CD drive for the new one. Is there some sonic reason for the recommendation for buying the extra drive and ripping on the new machine? Is the process of transferring music file from one machine to another more complicated? Thanks again for the help!

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 9, 2014 at 08:02:32
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46306
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 If you buy a USB 3.0 disk drive it will not conflict with your USB DAC. Yes, you can use a Thunderbolt disk drive instead but it will cost you more money vs a USB 3.0 drive.

Will you be using this drive as a backup device or for storing your ripped music, or both?

If used for backup, you're not going to be playing music while you're backing up so there is no possibility of 'conflict' with your DAC.

If used for storing your music, there will still be no 'conflict' with your DAC if you use a USB 3.0 disk because as I mentioned in my previous post, that disk will be on a USB 3.0 bus while your DAC will be on a USB 2.0 bus. But if you feel better about it, you can use a Thunderbolt drive which will cost you significantly more money.

---

An external CD/DVD drive will set you back maybe $15 - $80. I have Samsung and Lenovo branded USB CD/DVD drives. They both work perfectly fine just like my Apple branded USB CD/DVD drive. I think I paid $40 for my Samsung a few years ago.

You can certainly use your current Mac with it's internal CD/DVD for ripping then transfer the files but depending on the number of CD's you plan to rip, that's a good way to wear out your internal drive.... which can be costly to replace.... a lot more than an external USB CD/DVD drive.

You will also need to move your newly ripped content from the old Mac to the new one. Extra steps with the potential of introducing operator error.

IMHO and as I've mentioned before, you will be better off waiting to get your new Mac, get it all set up first, use an external USB CD/DVD drive, and then start ripping to it. Your choice.


 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 9, 2014 at 19:41:46
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Hi Abe - thanks again for the response. I have approximately 500 CDs to rip, so I am pretty sure a 1tb hard drive will be enough. If possible, I would love to use the same one to backup as for the music storage, but this is one of the things I am confused about, whether there would be enough room to do both with the same 1 tb drive?

What I have read about using a USB hard drive with a USB DAC is that there can be jitter, etc., caused by a synchronous conflict between the two devices, as they would both be in use together, resulting in significantly lower sound quality. Are you saying that this will not happen if they are on two different buses? I need to look at your previous post again; I really don't know anything about these things. Is the Thunderbolt type drive the only other option I have that will work with both my old machine and a new one? If so, then I am more inclined to try your two different buses idea, given the much greater cost of the Thunderbolt type drive.

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 9, 2014 at 23:58:13
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46306
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 500 CD's will easily fit onto a 1TB disk drive taking up no more than about 1/3 of it's total capacity. However, it would not be wise to keep your music collection on the same disk as your backup. If your disk crashes there's a good chance that your backup goes along with it.

Backups are an entirely separate topic with various strategies that work. The key is to come up with a solution that YOU fully understand and have proven. In other words, don't wait for a catastrophe to test your backup and ability to recover. You want a separate disk for your backup and better yet, more than one backup disk.

I explained the USB Bus to you. You have several choices: USB 3.0 external HDD, Thunderbolt USB HDD, Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter with a Firewire HDD. You choose.

The link below is rather old but pretty much describes what I've already told you about the USB Bus.


 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 10, 2014 at 19:06:16
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Thanks, Abe! I think I have a handle on all this now; as you said, I just need to choose. I appreciate your patience with a newbie very much!

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 10, 2014 at 19:17:41
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46306
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 If you plan to use iTunes as your audio player, be sure to 'rip' your CDs to an uncompressed format like AIFF or WAV. If you use compression, choose a lossless compression like Apple Lossless (ALAC). Do you use AAC or MP3.

Most of my collection are in AIFF uncompressed or Apple Lossless (ALAC) compression. Apple Lossless which is similar to FLAC will achieve about 50% compression on the file size to save disk space with virtually no effect on the sound quality.

If you choose to rip the CDs with iTunes be sure to go into iTunes > Preferences > General Tab > Import Settings >

then choose AIFF Encoder or Apple Lossless Encoder and check the box for "Use Error Correction".

If you think you might try other players in the future, and possibly the FLAC format, it is simple enough to convert from AIFF to FLAC and other formats.

Enjoy.

 

RE: need help understanding external hard drives, posted on December 12, 2014 at 20:15:11
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Hi Abe - I just saw this post of yours. I am considering purchasing the Audirvana software to use as the player, as I have read that the Dragonfly DAC I purchased will work very well with it. If I do this, would this change your recommendation? Would AIFF or Apple Lossless be better?

 

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