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fuses

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Posted on September 25, 2014 at 11:10:49
throwback
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 Has anyone experimented with "designer" fuses in their Atma-Sphere amps? I'm going to RMAF and sometimes "show special" discounts are available there.

 

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Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 25, 2014 at 11:57:35
Lew
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Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 Hi Chuck, I have a more or less than healthy skepticism regarding expensive fuses. For one thing, if you buy an expensive fuse and stick it into a crappy fuse holder, what have you gained? However, since I suffer from audiophilia nervosa just as much as the next guy, I compromise my principles by using Acme silver fuses AND Acme silver fuse holders. The price is right, and I have no desire to think about it any further than that. I would not testify that I hear any difference at all as a result. Go to Tweaker's Asylum; those guys fuss over not only the fuse but its orientation and directionality.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 28, 2014 at 10:02:38
Brian Levy
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Posts: 2438
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 I doubt it makes a real difference but, for very real difference change every screw out to a reverse thread grade 4 titanium base with silver threads and gold plated head and star washers cut from the leaf spring of a Willys military Jeep with the original 24 volt system powering the headlights while cutting the washer that must be cut, not punched, in a counter clockwise rotary drill with a US Steel slag steel machined as the drill on Jan 2, 1928 exactly at 11:59PM by Jim O'Reilly.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 28, 2014 at 14:45:57
airheadair
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Posts: 393
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 There has been a discussion of "tuning fuses" in the Music Reference Circle (Roger Modjeski's company) over at Audiocircle. Leaving aside the question of their effect on the sound,
one needs to worry about whether or not they actually protect the equipment correctly. Evidently some of them do not.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 28, 2014 at 20:29:38
Blackdog
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Posts: 1505
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 More than "some of them do not". I'd say most are not rated properly, and I doubt any of them are doing their job - that of a fuse.
I haven't looked, but are any of these fancy fuses UL or CSA approved?
Dan Santoni

 

Acme, posted on September 29, 2014 at 11:56:16
Lew
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Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 I think their fuses, which are "reasonable" in price, are ordinary (which is to say UL approved) fuses that have been silver plated. I would be interested to know if I am incorrect on that.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 29, 2014 at 16:34:49
throwback
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Posts: 762
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 Cute, Brian, cute.
If you liked that one, here's another.

I posted a modified version of this on another thread (The future of hi/end audio & a rant on honesty in reviewing) but got no reaction.
It revives the old objective/subjective dispute about things that shouldn’t be observable (maybe like fuses)but seem to be anyway. Here’s at least one of the problems as I see it:

I personally--along with my audiophile buddies--hear differences in cables (and other things) and we develop preferences based upon those differences. We had a phono cable shootout a few days ago, repeating the same test we had performed a month or so ago. It was a single blind test: the swap-pees did not know which cable we were listening to; only the swapper did. The results were entirely consistent with those of the first test. All were high-quality cables in the $3,000 range.
I doubt that the differences would have been measurable by standard audio scientific methods. On the other hand, we cannot deny what our ears are telling us. One problem is a failure to communicate.

Listener group: “We hear differences when swapping cables”

Scientist/engineer: “What differences?”

Listener group: “Cable #1 sounds sweet and musical; Cable #2 sounds trashy and discontinuous; Cable #3 has no bottom end compared to #1 and #2.”

Scientist/engineer: “What the heck is anyone supposed to do with those observations?”
“I can’t measure musicality or sweetness”
“My instruments show only minute differences in bass response, noise, and phase.”
"Those minute differences could not possibly account for the perceived differences.”

And that’s when the fight starts.
Question: How do we get beyond this?

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on September 29, 2014 at 19:05:49
Lew
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 We were talking about fuses. I definitely do hear differences among cables, but I think that the spoken and written words that are put forth to describe those subtle differences convey an exaggerated impression of how large the differences really are. Anyway, there are in fact "scientifically" valid explanations for the observation that one cable might sound different from another. In the case of a fuse, assuming said fuse is really capable of doing the job of a fuse, I am not aware of the science that backs that up. It is conceivable that the tiny resistance across a fuse wire can limit current flow to the component which might in some way constrict or limit the component's ability to convey dynamics. Thus, "low resistance" fuses might "sound" a bit better than a fuse of the same rating that exhibits "higher resistance", but by that same token, the low R fuse might not function very well as a fuse. Also, that current limiting explanation might apply to certain types of amplifier. It probably cannot apply to CD players, preamplifiers, etc, which after all don't vary much in current demand while reproducing music. So, I don't get the big deal about fuses. I do get the idea that it might be worthwhile to improve the quality of fuse holders, if one does want to spend money on a boutique fuse. The other thing is: listener bias is a tremendous factor in listener opinion. No one can be free of such biases. Nice that you did a blinded test of cables. Try it with fuses.

 

I need a quick 'electrical' education, posted on September 30, 2014 at 04:34:14
Cousin Billy
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 I will start by making assumptions;
The electricity coming from the wall enters my gear.
The electricity has a positive and a neutral side (black wire, white wire). I will call the neutral feed 'negative' from here on in.
The positive side goes straight to the gear, the negative side goes through that itsy bitsy teeny tiny little piece of wire inside the fuse. This negative side now goes to the gear.
This is an alternating current.

1)Please explain to me in electrical terms what the difference would be if we put the fuse on the positive (black wire) coming into the gear? as opposed to the negative (white) wire.

2) I know we have fuses to protect our gear. I know lightning strikes might fry our gear without fuses. Please enlighten me as to what other situations would fry my gear if I didn't have fuses?

 

RE: I need a quick 'electrical' education, posted on September 30, 2014 at 06:02:04
throwback
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 At last! A chance to really show my ignorance . . .

But the thing that occurs to me immediately is internal component failure, particularly in the power supply. Short circuits--with their near instantaneous high current flow--can be caused by many things: a blown tube; a bad capacitor; hot leads touching each other. I think even power surges on the incoming AC line.

Lew, can you add and/or subtract from these?

 

RE: I need a quick 'electrical' education, posted on September 30, 2014 at 07:06:05
cpotl
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Posts: 1002
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 "1)Please explain to me in electrical terms what the difference would be if we put the fuse on the positive (black wire) coming into the gear? as opposed to the negative (white) wire."


I would not consider it good practice to put the fuse on the neutral side, as in your original supposition. If there were a fault condition that blew the fuse, you would now have just the mains live wire and the ground wire connected into the equipment. Depending on the nature of the fault that had caused the fuse to blow, one could now imagine that the entire chassis might be live. (For example, if the fault was that (unfused) live wire had shorted to the chassis, and if that had then caused the connection to the ground return wire to burn out.) It is therefore much safer to put the fuse on the live side, so that if it blows there is no longer any live connection into the equipment.

Chris

(By the way, your choice of the labels "positive" and "negative" for the live and the neutral wires is a little unfortunate: Almost anything else would have been better, and less liable to cause confusion! But in fact "live" and "neutral" usually serve reasonably well for the purpose!)

 

Excellent response', posted on September 30, 2014 at 07:28:27
Cousin Billy
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Posts: 243
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 Thank you guys.

Quick question, could a faulty tube cause damage?

 

Depends upon the topology of the component, posted on September 30, 2014 at 08:25:53
Lew
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 For example, as most of us know, you can blow an output tube in an Atma-sphere amp without even being aware it happened, unless or until enough of them have blown so as to reduce the apparent "power" of the amplifier.

 

I think Billy is on to something., posted on September 30, 2014 at 09:17:37
Ralph
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 And that is to measure the system where you hear the differences by using a microphone. I can see lots of problems with this of course, but if you are hearing a loss of bass, and you can see that in the mic output as well, even though it is slight it is confirmation of what is being heard.

And if it is slight is also suggests that our ears may be more sensitive than previously thought...

 

What if I'm using a 'Balanced Power Supply'?, posted on October 1, 2014 at 08:18:51
Cousin Billy
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Posts: 243
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 My MP-1 pre-amp is powered by the BPT balanced power supply.
This simply means there is +60v coming in on the 'hot' wire, and -60V on the 'neutral' wire. This instead of the +120V/0V scenario.

If there is a short in one of the capacitors, and it blows the fuse on the 'hot' lead, would I still be getting shocked from the -60V from neutral to ground?

 

RE: What if I'm using a 'Balanced Power Supply'?, posted on October 1, 2014 at 08:33:39
Lew
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Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 This is potentially dangerous stuff, so I would rather not give you an uninformed opinion. You need facts. Perhaps there is an EE around here who can comment, or Ralph. I can only say that some very qualified persons on other Asylums have questioned the safety aspect of balanced power.

 

If the ground is truly ground then 'no', posted on October 1, 2014 at 09:56:23
Ralph
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 One thing about balanced power- equipment is not designed for it. Here is an example:

If you are to meet UL or EU directives (CE mark), the fuse has to be able to blow to protect the user. The tricky area is what if the power switch, which is mounted to the chassis, gets shorted to the chassis and allows it to become 'hot'? The fuse will blow, because it is in series with the chassis. Now the same thing is true of balanced power.

But what if something happens such that the other side of the line shorts to the chassis? What then? There is no fuse for that. As best I can make out, in this situation there will be 60VRMS on the chassis- IOW it will be 'live', as in a balanced situation there is no 'hot' and 'cold'; both side are 'hot'.

As long as everything is working, balanced power offers lower noise if you have bugs in your equipment's grounding scheme. This is because if there is a grounding bug, there will be current in the ground connection. This can cause ground loops and in a really bad situation even damage something. Balanced power offers a solution for this. But ideally, there will be no appreciable current in the ground, because in a properly grounded audio system, the circuit ground floats at chassis potential, but they are not the same circuit- IOW its bad design practice to use the chassis for a ground!

A lot of audio manufacturers have not sorted this out, and it does not matter what field (pro audio, broadcast, high end audio) they are operating in. For this reason you will see some pretty respected names extolling the virtues of balanced power.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on October 1, 2014 at 10:31:54
roio
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 Lew: "Anyway, there are in fact "scientifically" valid explanations for the observation that one cable might sound different from another".

The argument is relevant for audio differences of phone cables.
The meaning of "scientifically" valid explanation should be specified.
If the ""..."" signified something that is not fully scientific, but that only a list of differences in measurable parameters was provided (such as the specific inductance of the cables), this list would have noting to do with a true scientifically valid explanation. Indeed some accompanying hypotheses should be also proposed and tested.
For example, in case the worse performance of a certain cable was attributed to its lower impedance than that measured in the best cable, by properly adjusting this parameter should result in the same audio performance of cables. If reports like that were not provided, one should not say, even roughly speaking, that a scientifically valid explanation of the phenomenon in object is available.

Roberto

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on October 1, 2014 at 11:02:52
roio
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 Throwback:
"Listener group: "We hear differences when swapping cables"
Scientist/engineer: “What the heck is anyone supposed to do with those observations?”".

Suggestion (of a scientist/engineer):
Scientist/engineer would accept that the phenomenon of audio difference exists indeed, and acknowledge that the hypotheses and the measurement tools available so far are insufficient for managing with the huge complexity that originates in a capacitor, audio amplifier or cable by the electric signal coming from recording of a simple carpet of violins.
Once acknowledged that, Scientist/engineer would join to (and not insult) the Listener group, in order to provide, with passion, contributions useful for solving (possibly all) the intriguing audio–electronic puzzles, on the basis of objective data.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on October 2, 2014 at 03:08:50
roio
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 Lew: “It is conceivable that the tiny resistance across a fuse wire can limit current flow to the component which might in some way constrict or limit the component's ability to convey dynamics. Thus, "low resistance" fuses might "sound" a bit better than a fuse of the same rating that exhibits "higher resistance", but by that same token, the low R fuse might not function very well as a fuse. Also, that current limiting explanation might apply to certain types of amplifier”.

In order to assess if effects of fuse would be really "conceivable” for audiophiles, the capability of a small resistance in eventually producing audible changes should be proven.
For example, we can consider the output stage of an OTL. The anodes of the power tubes should be feed by resistors of increased values, step by step, up to eventually beginning earing some change in sound quality.
If we increased the resistor value up to even much more than three times (say 3 ohms) than that of fuse, and operated up to 5A of current on a 10 ohm loudspeaker (i.e., five times the idle current, which would correspond to a peak power of about 250W!), the output tubes would however conserve the dynamic range (due to the little drop of 15V over 120 V of the power supply).
Despite of this guess of engineer, to perform such audio tests would however make sense for audiophile.
I personally don't expect any difference but I would however make such a test (and let you know) after completing similar search on issues that I consider of higher priority.

Similar (often simple) tests would more properly accompany claims of "demonstrations", and would enable separating the non-neutral from neutral effects of power audio components.
This method would help addressing discussions mainly on what really matters for audiophiles.

Roberto

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on October 2, 2014 at 07:03:44
throwback
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 Measuring R (resistance)might be relatively easy. But what about other factors? I have read claims that vibration contributes to sound--hence that ceramic fuse cases are better than glass ones. Lew has found that the fuse holder makes as much difference as the fuse itself. Is that only an R difference? Subjecting fuses to cryogenic treatment seems to make a difference as well. Is it R, some other legitimate scientific phenomenon or voodoo? The use of silver seems to make a difference in IC's, etc. What about silver in fuses?

That's all I can think of at the moment, but it takes time to turn molehills into mountains--if indeed that's what I am doing.

 

RE: Is Ralph Lauren making fuses now?, posted on October 2, 2014 at 07:31:05
roio
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 Lew, not me, was hypothesizing audio effect dependence on the intrinsic resistance value. I simply suggested that such hypothesis should be simply tested, before claiming reasonability of hypothesis.

Vibration effects should be stronger on tube electrodes, and it should be quite difficult and, may be not enough reasonable, to try separating the latter from the one supposed to come from fuses.

Roberto

 

Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 10:35:05
Lew
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 I have been misunderstood by both of you.
Throwback, I did not say I can hear a difference between a hardware store fuse holder and an Acme fuse holder (the only "audiophile" fuse holder I know of). I did say that the idea of spending $50 for a fuse seems ridiculous if one is not also going to upgrade the fuse holder. If one did that, there would still remain the question of whether the fuse/fuse holder ensemble swap makes for an audible upgrade. I have done this experiment: My Atma-sphere amplifiers were built for 6C33C tubes, which, unlike the 6AS7, are not internally fused. Therefore, there is an outboard fuse-holder/fuse for each output tube, built-in. Unlike the typical fuse on the AC side, these fuses are much more likely to affect sonics, since they are in the signal path. In my amps, I replaced each of these fuse-holder/fuses with Acme silver-plated versions of both. The amps sound divine. (You've heard them, I think.) Am I certain that the Acme products contribute to their wonderfulness? No. I would have to go back and replace the Acme stuff with conventional products, in order to have any basis for any claim, which is very tedious and not on my radar screen.

Roio, I was playing devil's advocate and trying to imagine why a fuse might make an audible difference; one possibility that came to mind is the business of resistance of the fuse. I am not sure I want to say I have any real idea why a fuse (on the AC side between the wall and the power transformer) would ever make an audible difference to sound quality. Just supposing.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 10:57:33
roio
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 Lew: ""It is conceivable that the tiny resistance across a fuse wire..."

Thanks for pointing out that yours is only a vague supposition that would not deserve to be verified.

Roberto

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 12:11:41
Lew
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 If you don't think it "deserves" to be verified, that's fine with me.
As a scientist, I would say that my idea can be taken as a hypothesis which could be tested by actual experiments, if one wished to do so. Unfortunately, once our instruments (scope, distortion meter, etc) would fail to reveal an effect, then we will be left with subjective judgement. That unknown variable could be somewhat controlled by having a panel of listeners and the use of double-blind testing.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 12:16:32
throwback
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 Sorry, Lew. I read too much into your remark about fuse holders. And yes, your amps sound fantastic.

I'm still wondering if resistance constitutes the whole picture, however.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 14:20:34
roio
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 If for you to test the effect of a small resistance connected to the plates of the output tubes of an OTL deserves indeed to be audio-proven, I would do that gladly and accurately, and I will share the report.

Far away me is indeed the idea that only considering standard technical prediction that the fuse resistance (and, further, one of ten times higher value) would not alter the sound quality, this would be sufficient for ruling out possible audio differences.

Roberto

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 2, 2014 at 16:54:33
cpotl
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 "...the further hypotheses proposed for interpreting the aforementioned phenomenon (circlotron sounds better than Yamaha 2010) should be also proven by using the only instrument that matters: your ears and those of your friends."

Up to a point, yes. But listening tests have repeatedly shown that humans are not very good at discriminating even between supposed "night and day differences" when the claims are put to the test in double-blind experiments. It is clear that observer expectation plays a huge role in what we think we hear. Further evidence for this can be found on the "Tweakers' Forum," where people make utterly absurd claims of hearing differences supposedly caused by magic stones, flashing lights, and so on. Of course like any good spoon-bender, telekineticist or other charlatan, they express a total disdain for any scientific attempt to confirm the claim by means either of measurement or of double-blind testing.

So while I would agree that ultimately what matters is which amplifier gives the most enjoyment, I am not convinced that this is particularly correlated with any actual improved quality in the sound. Or indeed of any demonstrable difference between the sounds. In my own case, for example, I build and use tube amplifiers because it is fun, a little nostalgic, and I like the glow of the tubes. And in the case of OTL amplifiers there is the added pleasure of achieving something that seems so delightfully and absurdly perverse. But I don't think I would ever attempt to argue that my tube amplifiers, or indeed any tube amplifiers, are in any sense "better" than a decent solid state amplifier.

Chris

 

How 'bout a different approach?, posted on October 2, 2014 at 18:36:44
Bill Way
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Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 I'd love to see someone compare standard fuses to no fuses and to audiophile fuses. It would take a while, as this kind of thing often benefits with living with option A (and B and C) for a while, as well as doing some blind A/B/C-ing.

I've always been a little skeptical about changes in front of the power supply, but I'm not a denier. So when the Magee/Berkowitz team heard differences with power cords on the Studer A80 for the Beatles mono project, that means something.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 02:22:58
roio
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 Chris: “I am not convinced that the most enjoyment is particularly correlated with any actual improved quality in the sound. Or indeed of any demonstrable difference between the sounds. In my own case, for example, I build and use tube amplifiers because it is fun, a little nostalgic, and I like the glow of the tubes. And in the case of OTL amplifiers there is the added pleasure of achieving something that seems so delightfully and absurdly perverse. But I don't think I would ever attempt to argue that my tube amplifiers, or indeed any tube amplifiers, are in any sense "better" than a decent solid state amplifier”.

I don’t refer to “most enjoyments” or generic demonstrations of quality. I try to be clearer.
I have proposed that the problem of audio differences should be approached with a scientific-like approach. As usual with such method, the context of experiment should be defined in order to enable its repetition by who wants to do that.

Roberto

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 05:50:16
cpotl
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 There is a rather interesting experiment known as the Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge, which has been conducted many times with many listeners. Essentially, Richard Clark, who I think is an audio engineer, challenges the listener to discriminate, under proper A/B/X blind-testing conditions, between their own amplifier, a "standard" amplifier, and a third mystery amplifier X. The basic ground rules are that the listener's own amplifier has to satisfy some basic minimal standards with regard to distortion and frequency response. If the frequency response is too deficient, then Richard Clark mocks up a matching frequency response for his "standard" amplifier with a simple RC network.

Anyway, the upshot from the experiments is that apparently no one has ever succeeded in demonstrating a reliable ability to tell the amplifiers apart. (I think there is a $10,000 prize offered to anyone who succeeds.) Thousands of people, including professionals and amateurs, have tried, apparently.

So my suspicion would be that if the tests were conducted under rigorous blind-testing conditions, nobody would be able reliably and consistently to tell the difference between your Yamaha 2010 and an OTL amplifier.

Chris

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 06:29:28
Banat
 Roberto

I not understand you ,is that your -Yamaha 2010- actually made in 2010 year or 2010 is actually some model Nr.?, or that your Yamaha is from AS1000/AS2000/AS3000 series where SS power amps section use Circlotron concept ?

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 06:30:50
roio
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 " challenges the listener to discriminate, under proper A/B/X blind-testing conditions, between their own amplifier, a "standard" amplifier, and a third mystery amplifier X...."

Accordingly to my indications, these comparisons enabled concluding that any significant difference would not occur in the amplifiers under exam. So, I don't see the problem.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 06:33:30
roio
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 It is Yamaha model 2010 built at around 1982

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 06:55:31
cpotl
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 "However, I did not propose generic tests of musics, but experiments using pieces of classical music that, in my opinion, should better put in evidence differences (better if using a good CD player as source), from recordings of natural source (e.g., violins), whose real image everybody cold have as reference from concert halls."

As far as I recall, the listener was free to provide the sound source and the musical recording.

"If your suspect is too strong to led you to neither ascertain if the phenomenon occurs, I would only encourage you to try."

It's quite a lot of trouble to set up a proper double-blind test. I've never felt strongly enough about it to want to do that. But I'd be interested to hear of any other proper double-blind tests that have been conducted. Anecdotal reports of differences heard under less controlled conditions don't really tell us much at all. The human ear and mind are too susceptible to other influences for those kind of reports to mean much.

Maybe Richard Clark is still offering his challenge. In which case there's $10,000 waiting for the person who can actually demonstrate the ability to tell the amplifiers apart.

Chris

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 07:28:31
Lew
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 The "Tweakers" have two responses to the clamor for double-blind or even single-blind testing:
(1) The switch or switching mechanism itself used in A/B/A or A/B/X testing is obscuring the differences one is trying to discern. It's typically impossible to convince extreme Tweakers that this issue can be overcome, because then they would have to give up or modify some cherished prejudices.
(2) Short term listening, as is typically done in this sort of testing, is insufficient to reveal subtle differences; you have to have the gear in your system for many days/weeks/months to do the comparison properly. This of course usually interdicts the possibility of true blinding of the participant(s). Actually, I am not so sure I disagree with this position.

I would add that IMO, the amplifier/speaker work as a unit. The "sound" of the amplifier will have more to do with how well its operating characteristics suit the speaker's impedance, efficiency, and phase anomalies, and the room acoustics, than anything else. Thus it is folly to test two very different types of amplifiers (solid state vs OTL vs SE) in this manner. Which is why I am an agnostic when it comes to testing and how to do it. I just know what I like, after 40 years as an audiophile.

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 07:55:25
roio
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Location: Frascati (Rome)
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 I don't like to play with the three cards like in Naples, because there is always a trick.

Roberto

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 11:07:14
throwback
Audiophile

Posts: 762
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 Case in point to your second point, Lew.

I am experimenting with a speaker that has a series/parallel string of highs/mids crossed over to a series/parallel string of woofs. The impedance of the combination--measured at the speaker terminals--was less than three ohms. Powered by my Atmas the combination was truly struggling: it lacked dynamics and the highs were unacceptably rolled off. Conclusion: bad amp? bad speakers?

When I rewired the speakers such that each string was in series, raising the overall impedance to 18 Ohm or so (thanks, Ralph), both the highs and the dynamics were much, much improved. Conclusion: great amp! great speakers!

Is it real or is it Memorex?

BTW, Lew, you comin' to RMAF?

 

one additional note, posted on October 3, 2014 at 11:10:42
Ralph
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Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 If balanced power is employed all the outlets used have to be of the GFCI type. This will prevent shock hazard.

 

Case in point that you already know about..., posted on October 3, 2014 at 13:56:44
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 The Sound Labs 845PX speakers with OEM crossover and toroidal treble transformer (about a nominal 6-ohm speaker above 100Hz) vs the same speaker panels with only a low-pass filter on the bass transformer and a full-range transformer driving the treble (a 20-25 ohm speaker up to 5000Hz). Night and day.

One RMAF seems to have been enough for me. I don't feel the urge or the need.

 

RE: How 'bout a different approach?, posted on October 3, 2014 at 16:27:25
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I connected a good power cord to an NAD 2200 transformer primary. It was connected to a Monster power 300 which would trip on a dead short so there was risk. Huge improvement for sure.

I have a CJ MF2100 now in a bi-amp as an the HF amp which I removed the power fuse. Big difference and again risk. I only use it when in the room. My MF-2500 uses fuses on both the pos/neg speaker outs too(so four total) that I'd like to delete but won't, too much power on that one.

Less is more for sure most of the time.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 3, 2014 at 21:14:27
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "I don't like to play with the three cards like in Naples, because there is always a trick."

I don't think Richard Clark is trying to trick anybody. He has simply realised what others should have done also, that the audiophile talk is sometimes lacking in solid backing. He is (or was) offering $10,000 to anyone who could prove him wrong. And thousands tried, and failed.

Anyway, if you could conduct some true double-blind tests of the Yamaha vs a tube circlotron, it would be very interesting to hear the outcome. My own impression of the various OTL amps I have built is that they sound great, but also that they are rematkably close in sound to a solid-state amp. (Perhaps because they have very little colouration from output transformers.)

Chris

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 4, 2014 at 03:33:14
roio
Audiophile

Posts: 35
Location: Frascati (Rome)
Joined: September 3, 2014
 "I don't think Richard Clark is trying to trick anybody. He has simply realised what others should have done also, that the audiophile talk is sometimes lacking in solid backing. He is (or was) offering $10,000 to anyone who could prove him wrong. And thousands tried, and failed."

Chris,

do you really believe that if one wants offering $ 10000 for noting, he would not be sure of not trowing away money and, in the same time, supporting his interest? Who participated has only supported the idea that, in this play, differences are not perceivable. Should such a constant outcome attributable to sonic identity of amplifiers? You would say "yes". My interpretation is, instead, that these differences exist, but they are masked by the effect of the same tools that are claimed to be exploited for producing more objective results. Lew argued already on that.

Roberto

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 4, 2014 at 05:29:27
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "My interpretation is, instead, that these differences exist, but they are masked by the effect of the same tools that are claimed to be exploited for producing more objective results."

The trouble is that this kind of response sounds hauntingly reminiscent of the response of a spoon-bender or a mind-reader when a scientist's investigation fails to confirm the occurrence of the claimed phenomenon.

I think there is a serious point here, which cannot be simply brushed aside, namely that without the benefit of the visual and other cues one normally has, it can be astonishingly difficult to hear the differences that one believes exist between different amplifiers.

Chris

 

RE: Hold it!!!, posted on October 4, 2014 at 06:04:45
roio
Audiophile

Posts: 35
Location: Frascati (Rome)
Joined: September 3, 2014
 "...this kind of response sounds hauntingly reminiscent of the response of when a scientist's investigation fails to confirm the occurrence of the claimed phenomenon."

I would say better: "...when a scientist's investigation succeeds in falsifying the occurrence of the claimed phenomenon".

I simply said that, however and for sure, I would give the same answer that Ms Clark expects by his tests. Why are you not happy for that? But you should concede that in science it matters to interpret the phenomenon that occurred during these tests, i.e, that no differences were perceived. You repute a spoon-bender or a mind-reader who hypothesizes that other causes would explain the sonic identity. But, why are we forced to eat the meal that Mr Clark (and you) are offering?


Roberto

 

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