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6C33 OTL

91.50.207.147

Posted on February 17, 2014 at 12:27:43
sprussog
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Location: east germany by silicon saxony
Joined: October 23, 2013



Dear People of OTL Asylum,

I found an interesting schematic of a 6C33 OTL.
A good simulation i created with LTspice.
The voltage at the anode of 400V is very high.
Can someone to say more at this Japanese art?

Kind regards Steffen

 

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RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on February 17, 2014 at 16:16:48
sk
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Posts: 658
Joined: April 22, 2000
Tonight I just fired up a pr of Atmasphere OTL Novacrons MK3.2 Limited Edition that uses the 6C33C tube and all I can say is WOW! WOW! WOW!
What soundstaging, body and richness this amp has....I'll be staying up late tonight that's for sure.

(Dealer disclaimer)

 

better than sex on a stick?, posted on February 17, 2014 at 16:49:42
Sounds of Silence sounds familiar.

Lucky you to have a new pair of Novacrons to play with.

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on February 17, 2014 at 17:26:51
Lew
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Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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It's very highly related to an Atma-sphere design, but some differences that make it inferior, IMO. One major kludge is two capacitors in the signal path. Another is the use of NFB, but Atma had NFB as an option, too. Best not to use it, though. Also, as you mentioned, 400V is a lot of voltage to put across the 6SN7s that are acting as cathode followers. 6SN7s sound best with at least 5mA or more current. And the impedance at the cathodes of the CFs could be higher for better linearity. The resistors R25 and R26 look like feedback resistors; those should attach to the 10K grid-stop resistors (R1 and R2) BEFORE the grid-stops contact the grids, not after, as shown. Also, I don't know why you'd need 10K grid-stop resistors in the first place, on a 6SN7. 100 ohms ought to be sufficient.

 

Depends on who's doing the licking I suppose......, posted on February 17, 2014 at 18:15:37
sk
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Sue we went you a Mactone amp a looooong time ago. :-)

 

LOL.., posted on February 17, 2014 at 19:24:45
I membered the amp just wasn't sure about the name of the amp. You were very kind.

Hope all is well.

Sue

 

RE: LOL.., posted on February 17, 2014 at 20:48:40
sk
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Posts: 658
Joined: April 22, 2000
MA300B and if I remember correctly you wanted to trade me a car for the amp, we sold over 20 of those amps..great sounding.

(and all is well and thank you for your kind words)

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on February 18, 2014 at 05:33:52
Hi Steffen !

Basically I agree with Lew observation & opinion !

Just to add :

1) 155 VDC per PSU phase is little beat to high voltage for 6c33c-b power tubes , 100 - 120 VDC is much better choice .

2) Each 6c33c-b power tube Must have asociated cathode power W.W . load resistor of at least 1 ohm value , ( personaly I prefer 10 ohm W.W.power res. connected in parallel with 1000uF/35 VDC Elko for each 6c33c -b cathode ) .

3) Each 6c33c-b Must have asociated slow blow 1.2A fuse conected in cathode circuit .

4 ) Separate driver triode ( 1/2 of 6sn7 ) for each output 6c33c-b power tube is Much Better solution than common driver triode , since this approach allow exact separate output power tubes bias without to need close & precise match of 6c33c-b quad .

5 ) Single input differential cascoded voltage gain stage ( typical for Atma-Sphere OTL Amp-s ) is Much better solution than solution from your presented schematic from many reason .

6) Two ground reference resistors (R21-R22) have to small value ( 39R ) , I suggest there to be at least 330R / 5W values .

Best Regards !

 

Question for Banat, posted on February 18, 2014 at 10:45:03
Lew
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Dear Banat,
I was very interested to read that you recommend a capacitor in parallel with the recommended cathode resistors on the 6C33Cs. I also see that it is large enough in value (1000uF) to bypass all audio AC around the cathode resistor. That idea is good in one way; it prevents an increase in overall output impedance at audio frequencies that would otherwise be caused by the insertion of the 10R cathode resistors. But on the other hand, does it not introduce a new issue? Specifically, all the audio has to go thru that capacitor, which is in series with the output signal. In practice, have you perceived any audible problems with that? (In a way, it cancels out one of the great advantages of the circlotron vs the Futterman, direct coupling.) Otherwise, I like the idea, because I have been reluctant to use the larger value resistors, e.g., 1 ohm vs 10 ohms, for fear of raising output Z by an objectionable amount. Or is there something amiss with my analysis? Thanks.

 

The new Novacron 6C33 OTL, posted on February 18, 2014 at 14:03:57
Ralph
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Posts: 4776
Location: Minnesota
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We finally got it switched over to using 6SN7s with a new CCS circuit.

Still don't have any new photos yet. But other than the 6SN7s it looks very much like the original Novacron, although it is missing the row of LEDs that appears on the older model.

People have been asking how this amps sounds, especially in comparison to the M-60. Initially I was thinking that there were tradeoffs, which was ture with the older amps, even when updated. However with the new driver installed, its obvious that this is our best sounding amp so far.

 

RE: The new Novacron 6C33 OTL, posted on February 18, 2014 at 16:22:47
sk
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All I can tell all is that I've never been happier with any new amp and yes the new Novacron is very special and a keeper. I don't know how much better it will get and I haven't even tried some NOS 6SN7 tubes that made a HUGE difference in my M60's but over the weekend that's what I'll be doing. In its current configuration it sounds superior to my M60's! It is fuller/richer sounding and the soundstage is so big not only left to right but back to front. I'm also hearing things that I've never heard in recordings that I thought I knew so well.
Thanks Ralph....the wait was worth it!

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 18, 2014 at 18:09:33
cpotl
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"But on the other hand, does it not introduce a new issue? Specifically, all the audio has to go thru that capacitor, which is in series with the output signal. In practice, have you perceived any audible problems with that? (In a way, it cancels out one of the great advantages of the circlotron vs the Futterman, direct coupling.)"

Well, the audio signal in any case has to go through the power-supply capacitors, so it is really just "a bit more of the same."

Chris

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 18, 2014 at 18:55:30
Lew
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Circlotron often baffles me, I admit, but I see the PS capacitors as being in parallel with the output, not in series. You may say that this is a distinction without a difference. I wouldn't know until I try it.

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 18, 2014 at 19:31:56
cpotl
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"Circlotron often baffles me, I admit, but I see the PS capacitors as being in parallel with the output, not in series. You may say that this is a distinction without a difference. I wouldn't know until I try it."

I would say that, roughly speaking, the upper half of the audio waveform passes through one of the power supplies, and the lower half passes through the other power supply. (With a relatively minor amendment to that statement, since there will be some lesser amount of quiescent current through each set of tubes at the cross-over point in the waveform.)

In any case, if you trace the current through the loudspeaker, tubes and power supplies, it is evident that whatever audio current passes through each set of output tubes passes also through the power supply connected to their anodes (since it can go nowhere else). So if it is agreed that the audio signal is passing through the output tubes, then it must necessarily also pass through the corresponding power supply.

Chris

 

Circlotron..........., posted on February 18, 2014 at 22:52:18
tyu
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This is the gift of the Circlotrons output setup....is there any other amp or preamp that lets you put the PS caps on the Speakers??
THIS setup has to give the best bass of any thing that got tubes init.............right ....people say this all the time About the Circlotron......an any cap you put in well chang the sound....some add the V-cap an WOW....i have some 5600mf caps pr leg on the outputs of my diyed MA1s....for me this is were my old sprague730p 1.mf are sweet as honey....an my Apogee Stages are full of these sprague caps allso...
to my old ears there not much can beet these caps....thanks for saying it one more time...it fun to just think about the output setup....how can it not sound good??

 

RE: Circlotron..........., posted on February 19, 2014 at 06:52:57
cpotl
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"This is the gift of the Circlotrons output setup....is there any other amp or preamp that lets you put the PS caps on the Speakers??"

There's no big difference, in this particular respect, between the circlotron and a totem-pole or Futterman OTL. In each case, the audio signal that passes through the output tubes passes also through the power supply.

Chris

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 19, 2014 at 08:07:09
Hi Lew !

10R cathode power res. bypased with 1000uF Elko alltogether with separate DC coupled driver results on so called `combined ` power tube(s) bias , where minor negative bias voltage is achieved automatic on cathode R/C member(s) , but major power tubes(s) negative bias voltage come as usual from separate DC coupled drivers cathode(s).
This solution is basically one good Compromise , since on the one side result in improved stability operation of output power tubes , but on the other side result in slightly to insignificantly reduced sonic performance of the OTL Circlotron Amp .
This mean that order of magnitude of sonic performance decrease is 1000 times or even less than in case when we want to use any type of the best feromagnetic transimpedanse power device ( read OPT ) , by use of this `combined` bias method highest possible sonic resolution Amp performance is still obtained , which is typical sonic characteristic for any good designed OTL Amp .
BTW , my formula to chose optimum value of cathode W.W. res. is R=1/10 of B+ , for example , if B+ is 140VDC than Rk have to be 14R , but since 15R is common available res. value than this sligtly higher value is good too .

 

RE: Circlotron..........., posted on February 19, 2014 at 08:08:22
tyu
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Yes but there not fully balanced differential output Amps....An some use caps on there outputs...............right??
An none i have heard sound like or as good as the Circlotron....Well too me..........

 

FWIW, posted on February 19, 2014 at 08:11:18
Ralph
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A Circlotron amplifier will function without filter caps in the power supplies. I've seen people talk about how the filter caps act as coupling caps, but if the amp works without them, seems to me maybe that isn't quite the case. Just say'n :)

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 19, 2014 at 08:34:36
Lew
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That seems correct and logical.
But the issue you raised is whether that 1000uF capacitor bypassing the cathode resistor has a topology identical to or different from that of the PS capacitors, with respect to the signal. I suggested that the PS capacitors "look" to me to be in parallel with the signal, whereas the proposed cathode resistor bypass cap is in series. I am not in a position to argue, I just want to know whether I am right or wrong in thinking that way. That is, I want to learn something.

(By the way, I hope we all agree that the term "cathode resistor" is not used in the conventional sense of the term; the signal is taken from the distal end of the resistor, at the ground potential of the PS that serves that side of the circuit, not from the junction of the resistor with the cathode of the power tube. The resistor is there just to promote current sharing among the output tubes.)

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 19, 2014 at 08:57:24
cpotl
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"A Circlotron amplifier will function without filter caps in the power supplies. I've seen people talk about how the filter caps act as coupling caps, but if the amp works without them, seems to me maybe that isn't quite the case. Just say'n :)"

I suppose it depends what "function" means. Without power supply capacitors, the two supplies for the output stage are producing full-wave rectified sinewaves. This means the supply voltages are varying between (say) 150V and zero volts 120 times per second. That means there will be significant intervals of time during every 1/120 th second period when the amplifier is incapable of outputting any audio signal. This will inject a huge 120 Hz "modulation" onto the audio output.

In any case, the logical point is that whatever current passes through an output tube necessarily also passes through the power supply that connects to it. So the audio signal passing through the tube will necessarily pass also through the power supply. There is literally nowhere else that it can go. (As in the schematic at the top of the page; the wires from the output tube anodes connect to the power supply and nothing else.)

The discussion of what might happen if the power supply had no capacitors in it is an amusing one in its own right, but not really relevant in practice, I think. When one does use a capacitor, the audio signal passes almost exclusively through it as it passes through the power supply. Apart from anything else, for the majority of the mains cycle the sinewave voltage from transformer secondary is less than the voltage stored on the capacitor, and so the rectifier diodes are non-conducting. That leaves only the capacitor as the route by which the audio signal can pass.

Chris

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 19, 2014 at 09:17:13
Lew

Yes !, by Circlotron OPS PSU C`s are definitive in Parallel with load(speaker)! , but cathode(s) res. bypass C`s are definitive in Series with load(speaker) !
( That`s can easy open new `playground` for probes & experimentation with different sorts, brands names and values for Rk bypass Elko`s :), but it is relative easy now since this cathode bypass C`s are relative available & cheap.)

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 19, 2014 at 11:19:39
cpotl
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"Yes !, by Circlotron OPS PSU C`s are definitive in Parallel with load(speaker)! , but cathode(s) res. bypass C`s are definitive in Series with load(speaker) !"

I don't agree. Look at the schematic; the upper pair of tubes, the supply B1 and the loudspeaker are all connected in *series*. Likewise, there is a second series-connected loop comprising the lower pair of tubes, the supply B2 and the loudspeaker. One of those loops predominantly handles the upper half of the audio waveform, and the other loop predominantly handles the lower half of the waveform. In each case the corresponding power supply is in series.

(The discussion is slightly complicated by the fact that each set of tubes conducts for rather more than just its half-cycle of the waveform, but this is inessential to the key point.) If we consider the bulk of the audio waveform, away from the crossover region, either one set of tubes or the other is passing the overwhelming portion of the current. We then have a simple loop, comprising the speaker, the set of conducting tubes, and the associated power supply, all in series.

One wants, for example, that the two power supplies should have as small an impedance at audio frequencies as possible. If the capacitance of the filter capacitors was too small then the output impedance of the power supplies would rise significantly at the lower frequencies and there would be a loss of low-frequency audio output, exactly as would happen with any situation where a capacitor is in series with the speaker.

Chris

 

RE: Question for Banat, posted on February 19, 2014 at 11:29:10
Lew
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FWIW, what you say is consistent with my experience: the more PS capacitance, the better the bass response, subjectively.

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 19, 2014 at 11:45:42
Ralph
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Location: Minnesota
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The Futtermans I have seen employ an *actual* coupling cap in addition to the 'coupling caps' in the power supply. So we can look at the Circlotron has having 'one less'.

Another method of sorting out if a coupling cap exists is to examine the DC capabilities of the circuit. If a coupling cap is present the circuit will have a timing constant that will prevent DC response. We don't see that in the Circlotron- the output is capable of holding DC levels indefinitely, in fact requires a DC offset control system due to the lack of a coupling cap. So I've always seen this as a 'cake and eat it too' sort of thing; if you have a coupling cap you don't have DC response. This is of course a pragmatic viewpoint, I am sure stricter definitions exist!

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 19, 2014 at 19:04:19
cpotl
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"Another method of sorting out if a coupling cap exists is to examine the DC capabilities of the circuit. If a coupling cap is present the circuit will have a timing constant that will prevent DC response. We don't see that in the Circlotron- the output is capable of holding DC levels indefinitely, in fact requires a DC offset control system due to the lack of a coupling cap. So I've always seen this as a 'cake and eat it too' sort of thing; if you have a coupling cap you don't have DC response. This is of course a pragmatic viewpoint, I am sure stricter definitions exist!"

I think an important point in the discussion is the relative timescales of the period of the audio signal, on the one hand, versus the timescale of the "pumping up" of the smoothing capacitor every 1/120 of a second. Or, in other words, the relative frequency of the audio signal under discussion versus the mains frequency. But first, it should be emphasised that regardless of the relative frequencies, the audio signal *will* go through the power supply, since there is no other route from the anodes of the output tubes than through the power supplies. This is just basic conservation of charge. The only matter for debate could be how much passes through the smoothing capacitor and how much through the rectifiers and power-transformer secondary.

If we consider an audio signal with a frequency that is large compared to 60Hz, then there will be many oscillations of the audio signal between the periodic replenishment of the charge on the smoothing capacitors, which happens every 1/120 of a second. During much of the time between the replenishments, the instantaneous power-transformer secondary voltage will be less than the voltage across the capacitor, and so the rectifier diodes are non-conducting and the *only* route for the audio signal to follow is through the capacitor. It is in series with the loudspeaker. In this regime, the audio path is clearly through the smoothing capacitor, and it is playing a role much like any other coupling capacitor.

At the other extreme, if we consider an "audio" signal that is very low in frequency compared to the 60Hz mains (and the DC response you mentioned is the limiting case of this), then there will be many replenishments of the charge on the capacitor during one cycle of the very low "audio" frequency. In this regime, the power supply with its smoothing capacitor is behaving rather differently from a pure coupling capacitor, since the recharging process from the power transformer is now playing a big role during the course of a single very low frequency "audio" cycle. That "replenishment" process doesn't occur with an ordinary coupling capacitor.

In practice, the various parameters like the current-supplying capability of the transformer, and the value of the smoothing capacitor, are chosen so that there is very little "sag" of the power supply DC voltage under the load demanded by the amplifier, and there is very little ripple on the DC output level from the supply. Under these conditions, it is therefore the case that the rectifier diodes are non-conducting for the majority of the mains cycle, and that therefore the power transformer is completely "out of circuit" for the majority of the time. Since the fluctuating current (the "audio signal") passing through the output tubes must necessarily pass through the power supply, it follows that it is necessarily passing overwhelmingly though the smoothing capacitors, and not through the rectifier diodes and power transformer secondary winding. (This is especially clear cut for the higher audio frequencies. One could debate a bit more about the "near to DC" extreme case.)

Chris

 

Another question about the cathode bypass capacitor, posted on February 20, 2014 at 06:53:11
Lew
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Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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If we posit that the cathode resistor is used to promote current sharing and that the steady-state DC bias current will remain essentially constant during music reproduction, then we have AC current variation during music reproduction, only. So if the bypass capacitor shunts all audio frequencies, i.e., all AC, around the cathode resistor, does it not also negate the capacity of the cathode resistor to promote current sharing among the output tubes, when we listen to music?

This would be an especially important consideration for me, using 7241 output tubes, because of the need for cathode resistors to help the 3 internal cathodes to share current as equally as possible.

Thanks.

 

RE: Another question about the cathode bypass capacitor, posted on February 20, 2014 at 07:34:02
tyu
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Posts: 963
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In my Diy MA1s....i well need 56 caps to by-pass my 5 ohm cathode resistor ................some tell me why this is a good thing??

An if theres any one out there that cant hear the Bass an sound get better as i add more mf to the PS....you dont have the amps i have!

Thanks for any info on OTLs

 

I had a new question for Banat, posted on February 20, 2014 at 08:12:53
Lew
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Why it's a good thing: Banat told us. It puts a little local bias on the output tube and it eliminates the increase in output impedance associated with adding the cathode resistors, especially if you use the higher value cathode resistors that Banat favors.

The negatives: Banat admits that the audio goes through the shunt capacitor, inevitably, but with very minimal negative effects. Chris points out that the audio goes through the PS caps, anyway. My new question is whether the bypass cap in fact negates the capacity of the cathode resistor to promote current sharing under dynamic conditions, because AC current changes are shunted around the cathode resistor.

FWIW, I already said that I have the same finding as you: more PS capacitance gives better bass response. Chris's (and Ralph's) conception of the operation of the amp predicts that too. I don't think anyone is arguing about that at all.

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 09:03:26
Ralph
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So, if we used batteries instead, would there be coupling caps?

The circuit would work the same way.

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 09:49:48
cpotl
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"So, if we used batteries instead, would there be coupling caps?"

Maybe the term "coupling" is in any case not the best one to describe the role of a PS capacitor, since "coupling capacitor" carries the connotation of a capacitor between one stage of amplification and the next. The PS capacitor is in the audio path, and to that extent it has features in common with a coupling capacitor.

If batteries are used instead, then we now have the audio signal passing through them. Presumably if the batteries are essentially "ideal" (maybe like a set of car batteries in series?), they will have extremely low impedance and there will be no significant interference with the audio signal. However, given the way that passions are aroused by discussions of the pros and cons of different capacitor types, I could easily imagine analogous debates over batteries, whether Sears is better than Pep-Boys, etc., etc.!!!

I see Lew's point about whether the cathode bypass capacitors would negate the benefits of putting in cathode resistors for current-balancing purposes. My suspicion would be that any resulting unbalance for the AC audio currents would be a relatively minor issue, and the main concern is to ensure some degree of stability and balance of the quiescent DC currents through the tubes, which can be quite large and dissipate a significant amount of power. I know from my own experience that if one isn't careful, then with paralleled output tubes it can be possible for one of them to hog most of the current, and hence dissipate a lot more power than the others.

Chris

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 10:51:12
tyu
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Posts: 963
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Chris thanks............i can see with the 4ea 6C33 OTL..an the need for them to be fused....that 4 more caps may be the way to go...ezey to pull
if one feels there a down side....sound wise..i would think these should also have a smaller .1mf cap ...Ah...yes the never ending story of the OTL...an the ESL...

So it gos........

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 10:55:32
Ralph
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Maybe the term "coupling" is in any case not the best one to describe the role of a PS capacitor, since "coupling capacitor" carries the connotation of a capacitor between one stage of amplification and the next. The PS capacitor is in the audio path, and to that extent it has features in common with a coupling capacitor.

That's always been my opinion.

With regards to Banat's circuit (seems I saw that proposed on DIYAudio a few years back) it might be a good idea to use resistors that are more like 100 ohms. That would make the caps smaller and the bias would not be self bias as it would still need some bias voltage, but not nearly so much. :) Each approach has its own set of problems...

 

What I was thinking too: much larger cathode resistors,..., posted on February 20, 2014 at 12:28:15
Lew
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because, as you say, that would reduce the required size of the bypass capacitor. I calculated in my head that to achieve a -3 db point at 2Hz with a 30-ohm cathode resistor (so response would be flat at 20Hz), I'd need ~3000uF bypass caps. I'm sure one can get by well with a higher -3db point, however.

With my amps, that's a lot of new parts to buy and install (3 cathodes times 4 tubes per monoblock), if I were to do it. 24 new resistors and bypass capacitors, in total.

 

Chris, Thanks for the comment on AC and DC currents, posted on February 20, 2014 at 12:29:40
Lew
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nt

 

not so fast-, posted on February 20, 2014 at 12:56:42
Ralph
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Location: Minnesota
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If you install such cathode resistors, you will want to increase the power supply voltage accordingly.

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 12:58:26
Chris

Mr.Karsten says to you : "So, if we used batteries instead, would there be coupling caps?"

And you responded to him that you have responded , but I ask you now : What`s happen with car ( lead acid ) batteries when they during exploatation become discharged ? .
I think than they need some battery Charger to again become Charged !,( and usually simple battery charger consist from one main trans. and SS rectifier ).

Any way I want to tell you next , only by using just my simple as possible sentence & words without Any intention to discredite you or anything simmilar !!! :
Batteries are just DC E.energy power Source Storage Units , same as Elko`s in convetional Amp PSU , further stored E.energy from batteries are partialy wasted (discharged) in power tubes , generating un-usefull heat, and finally some of that stored DC E.enegry is discharged on the load(speaker) , converting that stored E.energy in sound , also in un-usefull heat too , that generated sound is only Usefull Work that we actally need .
And yes ! all of this 3 device (charged battery , power tube ,load(speaker )are connected in series !
Finally I want to say that any serious E.Engineer look in this way how that E.machine (Amp)work , audophiles and amateurs don`t , they use term`s something like : audio-path , audio that or this , and so on and so forth , bla , bla , bla .....

Best Regards !

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 13:52:05
cpotl
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"And you responded to him that you have responded , but I ask you now : What`s happen with car ( lead acid ) batteries when they during exploatation become discharged ? ...."

I'm not sure I'm catching the point you are making, but it seems anyway we are in agreement that the power supply (battery in this case) is in series with the speaker and tubes. The AC audio current that passes through the loudspeaker passes also through the battery. If you want to call that the "audio path" or not is just a matter of preference for words, but the facts are presumably not in dispute.

Chris

 

RE: Another question about the cathode bypass capacitor, posted on February 20, 2014 at 14:13:09
Lew

DC fixed negative grid bias is not steady during music reproduction , it is modulated with AC signal from driver(s) cathodes , hi constantly change the value depending from form & level of AC signal present on the Amp input , hi have steady state value only in - no input signal- condition . ,
but in the same time across the R/C member connected in catode(s) circuit that small DC voltage (automatic bias or self bias ) value ideally have to be constant .
Only what you need is to determine R/C time constant for lowest freq. that you want to amplify , and usually that is 20 Hz .
My point is actually next : for example , if accidetally input signal is become in subsonic range ( 5Hz or so ) , and is it with relative high amplitude than output power tubes un-necesery sufer relative high internal disipation without any final audible gain , further R/C member durring that sub-sonic ` fly back ` automatically raise up the self bias value causing efect of power tubes self protection regardless to grid subsonic high level input signal .

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 14:29:44
Chris



If we connect that same Amp ( basically one black box who amplify something ) which we usualy use in home for reproducing of music signal on the load of table shaker , which is usual tool in airplane industry , and excite that Amp with different input signal in range from 20Hz - 20Khz , same as is in audible freq. range , can we say that inside of PSU`s Elko`s pass some table shaker signal ? , I think no !

 

I think I understand, posted on February 20, 2014 at 14:30:34
Lew
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what you say here about protecting the output tubes from subsonic input. And both you and Chris have corrected my assumption that the DC current remains relatively stable whereas there is lots of variation in AC current under dynamic conditions. Apparently that is not the case. So I've learned something from you guys.

 

Yes, thought of that too, , posted on February 20, 2014 at 14:32:56
Lew
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just after posting. 100R per cathode would drop around 13V per cathode, if I bias the whole 7241 at around 400mA, which is typical. Thankfully there is no real need to go that high in resistance.

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 15:08:08
cpotl
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"If we connect that same Amp ( basically one black box who amplify something ) which we usualy use in home for reproducing of music signal on the load of table shaker , which is usual tool in airplane industry , and excite that Amp with different input signal in range from 20Hz - 20Khz , same as is in audible freq. range , can we say that inside of PSU`s Elko`s pass some table shaker signal ? , I think no !"

Banat, now I'm really puzzled where this discussion is going! I can't see that there is any new logical issue that arises for shaker tables that is in any way dfferent from the situation with loudspeakers and audio signals. They are exactly equivalent, as far as the point under discussion is concerned. It makes me suspect that the argument is more about peoples' preferred set of words to describe the same unambiguous and undisputed set of facts.

But just in case, let me pose three questions that have yes/no answers to you:

1) Would you say the shaker table signal is passing through the wires from the amplifier to the shaker table?

2) Would you say the shaker table signal is passing through the output tubes in the amplifier?

3) Would you say the shaker table signal is passing through the power supplies in the amplifier?

Chris

 

RE: FWIW, posted on February 20, 2014 at 15:47:16
Chris

I see no point to respond you on that 3 question !, only by giving yes or no answer , since I have allready to much clear&loud responses here , I don`t want to open new marathon of questions & answers , and it is little beat to late hours by me here on this side of planet Earth .

Best Regards !

 

Just FWIW, posted on February 21, 2014 at 09:41:39
Ralph
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If you aim for a cutoff of 20Hz, you will introduce phase shift up to about 200Hz.

That is why we set our cutoff frequency at about 2Hz, so there is no phase shift at 20Hz.

If you have subsonic input (just IMO mind you) its not the job of the amp to process that out, rather that of the source to the amplifier to see to it that its not there.

(Of course we go for wide bandwidth in our preamps too, so that puts the onus on the actual sources, analog or digital.)

 

Yes, I agree, 2 Hz cut-off, posted on February 21, 2014 at 10:44:31
Lew
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I mentioned that in a post below, and I calculated that for a 30-ohm cathode resistor (per cathode of a 7241), I would need about 3000uF to bypass audio with -3db at 2Hz. (With 3 cathodes in a 7241, that would give me a net of 10 ohms to ground.) "3000uF" was calculated "in my head". When I later did it with an actual calculator, I get ~2600uF. But since the voltage is very low across the resistor, one can get away with very high quality electrolytics as used in filament supplies (16V ought to do it at practicable values of R). Then bypass the lytic with a good film cap, which can also be small in size because low in voltage.

Having said all that, I am not at all certain that I will try it.

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 5, 2014 at 09:29:49
roio
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"It's very highly related to an Atma-sphere design, but some differences that make it inferior, IMO. One major kludge is two capacitors in the signal path. Another is the use of NFB, but Atma had NFB as an option, too. Best not to use it, though ".

Lew,
don't you have any problem with offset stability working without negative feedback at all? How about the frequency response and distortion? Maybe the Atma option is to reduce NF at the minimum compatible with tolerable figures of amplifier. Thanks

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 5, 2014 at 10:26:06
roio
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"The resistors R25 and R26 look like feedback resistors; those should attach to the 10K grid-stop resistors (R1 and R2) BEFORE the grid-stops contact the grids, not after, as shown".

Lew, if you connect R25 and R26 at the opposite terminals of R1 and R1, the consequence should be that R26 (and nearly R25) should be at the ground, so that the negative feedback would not take place. But, maybe, I would not have understood.
In my opinion, R1 and R2 would be not grid-stop resistors but they are elements that build the amplifier gain under feedback action.

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 6, 2014 at 09:58:02
roio
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Dear Banat,

I have the following questions.

1) Since you shared the suggestions of Lew about the circuit posted by Steffen, I do not understand the meaning of connecting R25 and R26 to the other leads of R1 and R2, i.e, at (or practically) at the ground. Any desired negative feedback (NF) should be cancelled. Don't you believe?

2) Do you also share the Lew's suggestion of eliminating completely the NF? In this case, how do you manage with drifts, bandwidth reduction, etc? Could you show measures with/wo. NF?

3) Did you try the minimum acceptable resistance on the output tube cathodes ? Did you measure the difference on the unbalanced idle current during long lasting operation with 0.47 ohm, 1 ohm and 10 ohm?

4) " Single input differential cascoded voltage gain stage ( typical for Atma-Sphere OTL Amp-s) is Much better solution than solution from your presented schematic from many reason ".
You say "...is Much better" in the sense that you listened to a clear upgrading of sound in two circuits with the ONLY difference consisting in the input differential cascoded topology or that in the scheme posted by Steffen?

Many thanks!

Sincerely
Roberto

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 8, 2014 at 08:22:29
Hi Roberto !

1) On Steffen schematic first 6SN7 tube form input differential first gain stage , so connecting two 470K feedback resistor ( R25&R26 )from two balanced output terminals (balanced low impedance output nodes)directly to input tube (high impedance nodes) grids forms balanced global negative voltage feedback loops ,so nothing unusual is there for me .
2)Yes I run my Amps without any applied GNFB , no significant output power stage DC drift ( DC offset) appear , there is no significant bandwidth limit to , except for lowest audio octave , where I made intentionally low frequency roll of from about 20 Hz by adding on each 6c33c cathode 10R W.W.power resistor in parallel with now 2200uF electrolytic condenser .
3)No I did not observed any unbalance at heavy Amp loading with 1 ohm cathodes resistor , but I switch very fast to 10R/1000uF(2200uF) combination with full success , for example my friend Zoki finished two DIY OTL Multiphase Circlotron Amps , each mono block is with 6 x 6c33c-b , as last reliability test his kid was non stop pumping up some very dynamic techno music which includes steady heavy bass lines for around 6 or 8 hours at 2/3 or 3/4 of full output power without of any negative issue ,nominal load(speaker) impedance was 16ohm .
4)Earlier I have try many different input gain stages , some of them was very similar to Steffen input gain stage ( 2x 6sn7 ) but Atma-Sphere differential cascode gain stage was (is) the sonically clear winner .

BTW , you should read on the Atma-Sphere site the resource page , there you can find many interesting articles , about global negative feedback influence on Amplifier characteristic ,power paradigm vs voltage paradigm article , and many other articles which altogether form Atma-Sphere OTL amplifier design philosophy .

Best Regards !

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 8, 2014 at 11:45:16
roio
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Dear Banat,

many thanks for you kind support: I go to read the pages you have indicated, and I appreciate your information about audio tests of the cascode versus standard differential input stages.

Going back to the example of the design of Steffen, are you thus saying that no drift and any bandwidth reduction would occur if I simply eliminated R25 and R26?

Sincerely
Roberto

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 8, 2014 at 12:50:52
Roberto

- Definitely No DC output drift will occur if you disconnect that two GNFB resistor , since that OTL amp is Not internally DC coupled , but is AC coupled , first time in between first and second voltage gain stage (C1/C2 ), and second time in between second voltage gain stage and CF (cathode follower) driver stage (C3/C4).

- but some effects you can expect if you totally eliminate GNFB , Amp overall voltage gain will rise up , max. THD % to , Amp internal impedance will rise up to , maybe some hum or noise will appear to ,
Actually I think that you need first to build up that Amp and than to make some listening test ,first with GNFB applied and than without GNFB ,later you can chose variant which you personally prefer more , but for sure that some interesting sonic surprises is expecting you in both cases :)

BTW , there is eternal clash between various opinions in audio world about GNFB , some designers insist on no GNFB amplification , others are in middle position saying that moderate applied GNFB is just the right approach , and some of them insist on maximum as possible inserted GNFB , for example well known designer Bruno Putzeys have presented his view in the article named `The F-word `.

 

RE: 6C33 OTL, posted on September 8, 2014 at 13:41:27
roio
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Dear Banat,

you are so kind giving me all these suggestions.
Actually, I did not pay attention on these DC blocks, as I had in mind the similar G20 GRAAF schematics (which may be was circulating in this website) and I assumed the connections between stages were in DC as in the GRAAF.
Now I have the point. Many thanks again!

Sincerely
Roberto

 

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