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Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?

67.224.134.7
Posted on April 6, 2009 at 13:40:45
copytec
Industry Professional

Posts: 2
Joined: April 6, 2009
 Hello: I'm new to this forum and I found a lot of information concerning the Fourier Panthers OTL Amps. In Puerto Rico, there's an electronic engineer that has been working on tube systems for over 30 years and he really know his job. He's also an audiophile and let me tell you: that helps a lot!

Well, he happen to have a pair of Panthers in pristine condition as his reference system and finally we agreed on $2,000 for the pair. As a professional mastering engineer myself with many albums, Gold & Platinum recordings and a Grammy under my belt, I can really say that I have never heard something better than these amps, at least in my enviroment and acoustics! They have been heavily modified and probably that's why they're so stable, but what I want to know is your opinion from the "sonic" point of view. We already have a lot of information on the technical flaws and design problems. Now I want to know the sonic experience you guys have had with this model specifically.

Thanks!
Carlitos Guzmán
"El Magnifico"

 

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RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on April 6, 2009 at 13:52:02
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I have never heard a pair of Pantheres. I briefly owned the lesser model, the name of which I have forgotten. It was a stereo amplifier (with both channels on one chassis). I compared them to another pair of Futterman-type monoblocks that I owned at the time, made by Prodigy in Texas (long out of business). To my ears, in my system on a pair of Martin-Logan speakers that I then owned, the Prodigy amps were superior to the Fourier amp. Also, I was very unimpressed with the "quality" of construction of the Fourier product. I sold it thereafter. This should not be taken as an aspersion on your amplifiers. First of all, the Pantere was the top of the line and probably a better amp to begin with. Second, yours have evidently been upgraded and improved.

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on April 6, 2009 at 17:17:00
copytec


 
Yes, I understand Lew. I think the one you use to have was the Sans Pareill? The stereo one. As you said: the Panthers were their maximum effort and supposely one of the best sounding. Mine's are incredible, perhaps due to heavy modification... but you know: this hobby is so subjective and 50% of the sound we hear depends on the room's acoustic, ancillary equipment and speaker match, etc... My Tannoy Monitors and Wadia CD Player are very "happy" with these 2 guys. Not my wife, though...! Ha!

 

Yes... but, posted on April 6, 2009 at 19:51:23
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I think the Sans Pareil was the Fourier copy of the NYAL OTL3, which was in turn a copy of the Futterman H3aa. All used 6LF6 or similar pentode output tubes. The NYAL OTL3 was probably the best of them due to important mods that were made by George Kaye to the basic Futterman circuit. (My former Prodigy monoblocks fit in this bunch, too.) The Sans Pareil was maybe the least good of the three or four. Further, the Sans Pareil was a pair of monoblocks. Of course, I could be completely wrong. The Panthere and the (unnamed stereo amp) were unique in that they had triode output stages. But the triodes required the insertion of an additional gain (or driver) stage into the basic Futterman topology, so there would be enough gain (or a low enough impedance) to drive the triodes. Ralph, please jump in here if I am all wet. Bottom line: I am sure your Pantheres are excellent, especially with the upgrades that were done to them. There is nothing quite like the sound of a good OTL, so relax and enjoy.

 

RE: As I understand it, posted on April 7, 2009 at 11:13:42
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 The Sans Pareil was not a copy of the NYAL amp- seems to me the basic circuit that was used was done by one of the guys from Vacuum Tube Valley. Whether he got it from NYAL is another matter.

The Sans Pareil was prone to explosive behavior, due to under-rated capacitors in the power supply, bearing the name Bindu. IMO all of them should be replaced before attempting any other service, or even simply attempting to operate the amp. The power supply board also had Bindu caps for the output coupling caps- in that service they ran OK and didn't need to be replaced.

 

Triomphe!!!, posted on April 7, 2009 at 17:58:08
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 It was driving me crazy that I could remember the name of the Fourier stereo OTL amp I used to own (very briefly). But thank goodness for Google, I found this website which describes the three major Fourier products:

http://www.one-electron.com/Fourier.html

Mine was the Triomphe. It was not a triumph in terms of quality of construction. 'Nuff said.

In the age of Google, it may become increasingly difficult to diagnose Alzheimer's and other forms of senile dementia. As long as one can remember how to use a computer, one has a memory.

 

RE: Yes... but, posted on April 8, 2009 at 07:38:12
shermanr@prw.net
 Hola Carlitos:

Hey, hey. not fair.

I would love to hear those amps.

You can stop by my music room and hear a pair of M60 MK2.3 & some Zu Druids.

Or maybe you can also bring over the Panther's as well ?

Saludos
Rich

 

RE: Yes... but, posted on April 8, 2009 at 12:15:22
copytec


 
Hey Rich:

I hear you! Where are you located? I'll love to visit your room but taking those monsters with me...you better come and visit me! ha,ha,ha! Way too big and heavy!

Cuídate!

 

RE: Yes... but, posted on April 8, 2009 at 15:36:21
shermanr@prw.net
 Hey Carlos:

I live in College Park near Academia Maria reina.

You enter via Calle Salerno after Academia Maria Reina, take the first left then to the end, left again, 4th house on the left.

I travel alot, so send me a mail to coordinate. Yup those Pantheres look mighty big, as if they just ate a whole Water Buffalo!

Saludos,
Rich

 

Maybe exploding Bindu caps are the origin of "Arc d'Triomphe"? nt, posted on April 12, 2009 at 17:44:15
Atexanathome
Audiophile

Posts: 746
Joined: August 24, 2002
 nt

 

The rockets' red glare..., posted on April 13, 2009 at 12:05:30
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 the caps bursting in air..

In truth, my main beef was with the PCB, which was so cheap and hence flexible that if you tried to pull a tube, the entire circuit wanted to come with it. Also, I really did not like the use of spade/shovel connectors where there should have been hard solder joints.

 

RE: Maybe exploding Bindu caps are the origin of "Arc d'Triomphe"? nt, posted on April 16, 2009 at 13:42:15
garymuffley@fuse.net
Dealer

Posts: 445
Location: Maryland
Joined: March 29, 2006
 The later models of the Triomphe w/o the Bindu caps were very reliable ans sonically excellent. I have had one for 5 years.

 

RE: As I understand it, posted on April 17, 2009 at 03:21:29
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 Small correction: the capacitors were by Binda. AFAIK they were sourced from India. Heaven knows where and why they found and used them.

I owned a Triode (90 W/ch stereo version of the Panthere) which had issues similar to those described by Lew. One of the Binda coupling caps went south and made a mess of the circuit board; thankfully it didn't explode or catch fire. Decent parts but a clusterfsck of layout and build quality.

Bitter from having the amp fail on several occasions, I gave the amp to a friend who could work on it and potentially keep it running. With it I gave him the rough hand-drawn schematics of the Panthere that Tom Gambill at Fourier gave me. I've received some requests from Fourier owners for the schematics, but I've been unable to get back a copy after several attempts.

Brian Walsh

 

RE: Maybe exploding Bindu caps are the origin of "Arc d'Triomphe"? nt, posted on April 17, 2009 at 03:27:41
Brian Walsh
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 10768
Location: IL
Joined: December 6, 1999
 Count your blessings, Gary. Both times I visited Fourier in St. Louis shortly before they closed down I saw a vast array of amplifiers lined up on the benches awaiting repair, including Triomphes.

Brian Walsh

 

RE: As I understand it, posted on April 19, 2009 at 15:08:38
copytec


 
Well, after all the horror stories about the Pantheres I changed my mind, didn't keep the Fouriers and went with a more practical approach: Cary Audio Slam 100 mono blocks, like new and with new tubes for less than $1,800... So much for the Pantheres and OTL for me...Thanks!

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on May 12, 2009 at 13:19:17
Schelte


 
Trick of the game is to find 8x 6C33 tubes that have virtually identical elctical values. I f this is achieved and there are no binda caps (as I have) music is indeed fabulous. Not cheap but very rewarding. Drives 5.5 ohms loads speakers with ease.Good luck

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on July 19, 2009 at 16:31:54
cbrgs71


 
Hola, I believe I saw a pair of the Fourier's in an Electronics repair shop in Caguas. I had the privilege to listen to them with 801's and a Linn Genki cdp I used to own; the sound was great! I also believe that they were brought to PR by the ownner of Nova Electronics (Don Jorge). Enjoy them! Are they working? Saludos, Carlos

 

RE: Maybe exploding Bindu caps are the origin of "Arc d'Triomphe"? nt, posted on August 18, 2014 at 19:01:04
anthony.naso@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Location: Northeast
Joined: March 13, 2009
 Hey Gary

I have a Triomphe as well and I just replaced all the caps. I was wondering for the aligning process do you have a load on the speaker terminals or no?

Thx

Anthony

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on August 21, 2014 at 18:48:47
rhinohifi714
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: oklahoma
Joined: June 13, 2009



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEWBB4mFBdM

My experience with the Fourier's was very pleasant, driving a pair of K-horns dated 1958 and 1960 16 ohm versions was an awesome match with the Pantheres, I found a complete manual that had the entire alignment procedure and was able to dial them in to exact specs. I traded them to a friend who used them all winter in his system driving a set of Quad 63's to very amqazing results.
They are very amazing amps.

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on August 21, 2014 at 18:55:25
rhinohifi714
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: oklahoma
Joined: June 13, 2009
 the video with k-horns

 

RE: Fourier Panthers: To be or not to be?, posted on March 7, 2016 at 19:22:50
anthony.naso@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Location: Northeast
Joined: March 13, 2009
 Hey Rhino what's going on its Anthony from New York. I was wondering of you still had a copy of the alignment doc's for the Panthere. I have a pair and would love to have a copy of that manual if possible. Thx!

 

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