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Vanska and the Minnesotans finally complete their Sibelius cycle

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Posted on August 14, 2016 at 09:10:46
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This final installment contains Symphonies nos. 3, 6 and 7 - the last two surely a couple of the greatest symphonies ever composed! As you may remember, this is a cycle which was interrupted by the insane management policies in Minnesota (such as attempting to reduce the pay of the players by one third - imagine if your company tried to do that to you!) which forced a strike and led to a corrosive 15-month lockout of the musicians.

As heard on this glorious new recording (24/96 multi-channel download from eClassical), the orchestra sounds none the worse for wear, and in many respects, this final volume is the best yet in the cycle. Certainly the engineering, for whatever reason, seems more open and spacious than in the earlier albums. (I have all of them except for No. 2 - despite its dominant popularity among the seven, it's just not a favorite of mine.) One really striking aspect of the performances is the huge dynamic range which Vanska employs (and which the engineers capture breathtakingly!) - very gratifying indeed!



Over on Classics Today, Dave seems to have been in a sour mood when he auditioned this new recording, complaining that the woodwinds lack presence. This is certainly not true the way I heard it - in fact, that's one of the extraordinary things about this recording: that the different sections of the orchestra can all be heard so clearly and can come to the fore as needed so naturally and, seemingly, almost effortlessly. Dave also complains about some of the tempos, such as the second movement of the Third (too slow), but the instances he cites didn't bother me at all. Only the second movement of the Sixth seemed (possibly!) a bit slow (especially in the part, about three-quarters of the way through, which I've always thought suggested the scurrying of little forest animals - they don't really scurry in this performance, but the same was true in Vanska's earlier recording with the Lahti Symphony.) OTOH, the ensemble playing and the clear articulation are outstanding!

Meanwhile, over on Music Web International last week, Brian Wilson, while generally delighted with this new release, complains that the dynamic range is TOO wide. For the life of me, I CANNOT understand a criticism like this! This was the way the musicians played the music, and you want the engineers to come in and compress the natural dynamic range??? WTF??? The huge dynamic range is one of the glories of this release, and I salute the BIS engineering team for being able to capture such realism! (I've put a link to the MWI review at the bottom of this post - you'll find a link to another of their reviews of this album there too.)

I very much recommend an audition of these performances - they're very worthwhile and I suspect you'll be impressed with both performances and engineering.

 

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"For the life of me, I CANNOT understand a criticism like this!", posted on August 14, 2016 at 10:27:09
Doktor Brahms
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Unfortunately, Chris, I can.

Let me be clear: since Sibelius is on my shortlist of favorite composers, BIS is a critically important presence in my music collection, and I view Robert von Bahr as a truly heroic figure. And of course I've been collecting the new Vanska/Minnesota cycle, with this last disc soon to be ordered.

Having said that, I can understand the criticism leveled by Musicweb International's reviewer. Especially with Vanska's recordings, I sometimes struggle to hear the lower dynamics. But this is due almost entirely to the compromised nature of my hearing, which makes the lowest part of the dynamic scale challenging to apprehend. And I'm not even sure I would accept the "genuine concert hall experience" claim, because I attend about 18-20 live orchestral concerts a year (on average) in various venues, and what I hear on some of Vanska's recordings is not what I hear in the concert hall. And oddly enough, it's also not what I hear in a lot of other BIS recordings, such as the recent discs out of Bergen. My guess? Vanska's approach to dynamics is like Celibidache's approach to tempi: let's see how close to the breaking point I can get this.

Your enthusiasm about the performances in view here causes me to anticipate my first listening, but I will reserve the right to be dissatisfied with the dynamics. Is that OK? And if Vanska's dynamics are too much for my bum hearing, well...there's always Ormandy!

Thanks for your post, and for addressing the two reviews. I guess it's one of those YMMV things.

 

RE: "For the life of me, I CANNOT understand a criticism like this!", posted on August 14, 2016 at 11:36:50
rjan
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"And I'm not even sure I would accept the "genuine concert hall experience" claim, because I attend about 18-20 live orchestral concerts a year (on average) in various venues, and what I hear on some of Vanska's recordings is not what I hear in the concert hall"
Unfortunately this is not an argument, unless You have attended the recording session. Couldn't find anything wrong with dynamics.

 

DB - I do understand where you're coming from, posted on August 14, 2016 at 12:18:40
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But are you suggesting that the BIS engineers somehow expanded the dynamic range for this recording (beyond what naturally occured in the musicians' playing in the hall)? Or perhaps, if I'm reading your post right, you're thinking that Vanska himself is the culprit? Dave Hurwitz kind of suggests that too - he considers Vanska's extreme dynamics a mannerism. For me, the extremes of the dynamic range are simply an expansion in the arsenal of devices which the conductor can employ to generate even more expressiveness from the music (when used properly - and that qualification is of course a whole can of worms in itself!).

As I say, I do see where you're coming from, so perhaps we just differ as to how extreme a range of dynamics a conductor should use. There are probably a lot of other variables which enter in too, such as the particular piece being played, what kind of hall the orchestra is playing in, etc. Here's a link to Dave's review if you haven't seen it already:

 

RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from, posted on August 14, 2016 at 13:26:39
Doktor Brahms
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Thanks for the link. I read the Hurwitz review and found it unsatisfying. He seems to be saying that if an interpretation strikes him as quirky and he doesn't like it, it's a bad performance. Am I being unfair? At any rate, I appreciate the fact that Vanska is not just doing a by-the-numbers cycle with his current orchestra. Good for him for trying to find some innovative twists to his approach to scores that he's done probably dozens of times. Mr. Hurwitz surely recognizes that what he hears as mannered intervention might strike other listeners as fresh and invigorating.

And you're absolutely right about the dynamics: I see them as Vanska's "thing," rather than any unnatural intervention on the part of the BIS engineers.

 

RE: Sure didn't take Sibelius that long! nt, posted on August 14, 2016 at 19:26:06

 

RE: Vanska and the Minnesotans finally complete their Sibelius cycle, posted on August 14, 2016 at 20:53:24
learsfool
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Hello everyone - I must correct something Chris has written here. There was no strike in Minnesota. It was a lockout, NOT a strike. Very big difference. Management locked the players out and refused to let them work - in fact, this is the complete opposite of a strike.

 

Thanks for the correction - that means the Minnesota Orchestra board/administration was even more insane! [nt], posted on August 14, 2016 at 22:42:00
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More like very hard-nosed bargaining., posted on August 15, 2016 at 07:49:03
And ultimately forcing the players to accept a reduction in the size of the orchestra and a 15 percent cut in pay and benefits. I'm sure the players knew from the start of negotiations they would have to accept cuts, and the question was, how deep.

Some of their top players got jobs elsewhere during the lockout and did not return. It is remarkable to me that the orchestra survived such a long lockout at all. Others have not. But from management's point of view, you can't draw down your endowment until you're broke and then try to save the situation.

 

Sure, I understand that, posted on August 15, 2016 at 09:13:07
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But I used the word "insane" because, as your say: "It is remarkable. . . that the orchestra survived such a long lockout at all. Others have not." The fact that they would risk the very continuation/existence of the orchestra is what makes their behavior insane to me, although I do appreciate your point about not having to draw down the endowment.

 

Really a milestone, posted on August 15, 2016 at 09:22:02
TGR
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Completion of a cycle of Sibelius, with a major label (yes, Bis is that these days), in the US. Wow!

I have seen Vanska perform a few times with the SF Symphony, including a performance of the 6th symphony, and he has always impressed me greatly. I think the SFS actually plays better for him than for MTT!

I have only the recording of 2 and 5 of this cycle, as least at the present time. The 5th struck me as being a terrific reading, but I was surprised to hear the 2nd, which struck me as being overly personalized, which is not what I expected from Vanska, especially given the classic nature of his Beethoven cycle, which I highly recommend. As a side comment, I was disappointed that Bis didn't follow the Beethoven symphonies with a complete set of overtures.

 

Sometimes the board simply closes the business., posted on August 15, 2016 at 10:00:44
My main flute teacher was for many years the (last) principal flutist for the Goldman Band, a famous concert band founded in 1918 that premiered such important works as Percy Grainger's Lincolnshire Posy and Darius Milhaud's Suite francaise.
In 2005, negotiations broke down after the board sought to reduce the number of players and significantly cut compensation. [Ed.: While I see on Wikipedia that management claimed they would not reduce the number of tenured players, they did intend to eliminate a guaranteed season and compensation and remove all players from the board, essentially turning everyone into freelancers.] The players eventually came up with counteroffers, but rather than continue negotiations, the board simply decided to cease operations, and the band was no more.

 

RE: "I think the SFS actually plays better for him than for MTT!", posted on August 15, 2016 at 12:25:03
Ivan303
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Same with Blomstedt and Dutoit, at least IMNSHO.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Agreed, actually, posted on August 15, 2016 at 13:14:26
TGR
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I was going to add Dutoit as well, but they let him down badly in one of the two concerts he conducted last year - very poor playing in Firebird, for example. However, the following week they were brilliant, playing a Berlioz program.

Also they play better for Bychkov.

 

RE: " Also they play better for Bychkov", posted on August 15, 2016 at 13:55:54
Ivan303
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Dang!


I missed that one and he's one of my favorites!




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from, posted on August 15, 2016 at 15:56:50
pbarach
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I haven't heard the Minnesota Orchestra in many years. However, I have heard the Cleveland Orchestra in Severance Hall many times. Their pianissimo is as soft as anybody's, e.g., the end of Mahler 9. I never have trouble hearing the softest notes they play, and they are not deafening me at full blast either. In contrast, I can't hear the opening of Vanska's Beethoven 9th at a reasonable volume at home without getting NAILED (and not in a good way) at the louder sections of the performance.

I don't claim to know what BIS does with these MN Orch recordings, but they aren't listenable on my system.

 

I have seen him twice, posted on August 15, 2016 at 16:30:21
TGR
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Not sure if he has been here very recently. Some 5 (?) years back he led a performance of Rachmaninoff's Second that was to die for (first half of the program was The Bells, which I found less inspiring). I also saw him lead another concert that included the Paganini Variations - think it was Karill Gerstein on piano. I had tickets for a performance of Bruckner's 8th, but couldn't make it.

 

Interesting, posted on August 15, 2016 at 16:36:49
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I have no problem at all listening to this new Sibelius album (haven't heard the Vanska Beethoven 9th) - as long as my wife and cat are not in the house! ;-)

 

I saw him in Oakland with the Vienna Phil..., posted on August 15, 2016 at 16:39:50
Ivan303
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some years back. Didn't know it was him as I didn't know who he was back then.

Yes, Vienna Phil was good and likely would have been regardless.

Have The Bells above on SACD and I do think I like this performance of the Symphonic Dances even better that the Minnesota/Reference Recording version which was my favorite 'Audiophile' recording for some time.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from, posted on August 15, 2016 at 16:48:07
ahendler
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A recording can never capture the dynamic range of a live concert
Found the Vanska 6&7 on classics on line. Will listen after the olympics
Alan

 

The dynamic range argument will go on and on...., posted on August 15, 2016 at 18:23:51
srl1
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I think many megabytes were sacrificed on this subject on the old sa-cd.net site. I remember it also coming up either in American Record Guide or Fanfare when some reviewers complained about too much dynamic range in BIS recordings.

I think several issues are involved here. One, most home systems cannot recreate the concert hall in their living rooms no matter how much the audiophiles wish it so. Second, even if one can get the loudest parts to play at concert levels without distortion, living rooms are much smaller than concert halls and the sound doesn't have anywhere to go in a small space but to bounce around and smear the distort the music. Third, when in the concert hall, one has visual cues that can enhance the audio experience and make it easier to hear the quiet passages as well as the loudest ones.

Anyone who has heard the Rite of Spring played by a first-class orchestra in a decent concert hall knows that there is no way for a home system to recreate the amount of excited sound waves generated by the orchestra.

Finally, I believe that most home listening environments aren't really as quiet as perceived. I've been in a 1,000+ seat hall full of customers that can seem as quiet as a tomb when both the performers and the listeners are locked-in and involved in the listening experience.

As far as BIS is concerned, most of the time I just adjust the volume if necessary glad in the knowledge that BIS is giving me what the performers did without any intervention other than microphone placement.

 

RE: The dynamic range argument will go on and on...., posted on August 16, 2016 at 10:13:07
oldmkvi
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I set the Volume for the loudest passage, to where it's still comfortable.
I won't blow out my ears at home.
I leave that to Orchestra and Big-Band gigs...

 

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