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Satie! HIP Satie at that.

76.220.25.80

Posted on July 11, 2016 at 17:25:58
Ivan303
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Performed on an "...Érard grand piano built in 1890, the very year that Satie composed his Gnossienne No. 1 which opens this disc and new cycle."

Link below:


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

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Is it known that Satie actually played a piano like that one?, posted on July 11, 2016 at 18:17:37
And does the sound of the 1890 Erard change the way you perceive Satie's music in significant ways?

If the answers are "no" and "no" then what is the point of the exercise?

 

RE: Satie! HIP Satie at that., posted on July 11, 2016 at 18:20:42
Thanks, Ivan, just sampled some of her Debussy. Beautiful phrasing, but she sure does love exaggerated rubato and pregnant pauses. A quick survey of La plus que lente puts hers at among the slowest at 5:39. Still nowhere near Claudio Arrau at 6:22, though. Walter Gieseking plays it in 3:24.

 

I would suggest LISTENING to the afore mentioned CD..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 19:06:27
Ivan303
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and deciding for yourself.

What I CAN say is that it's an excellent recording, even when just streaming in Lossless FLAC. I would imagine the SACD would be much better.

The wife loves Satie and she liked this particular version irrespective of the age and brand of the piano.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Oh my..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 19:11:22
Ivan303
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And me about to venture into her Debussy Solo Piano Works.

That's gonna be a LONG 6 CD go, I'm guessing. ;-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: I would suggest LISTENING to the afore mentioned CD..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 19:38:01
I do find the HIP/non-HIP debates around here to be amusing (if not informative) but I think I'll pass on the CD. I don't really care for Satie.

 

I don't think she uses a period piano on her Debussy set? [nt], posted on July 11, 2016 at 20:20:45
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No, not at all...., posted on July 11, 2016 at 20:43:01
Ivan303
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I was just commenting on how long it was gonna take me to get through ALL of that Debussy if, as Rob claims, she plays the stuff REALLY slow.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Well, listen for yourself and let us know., posted on July 11, 2016 at 20:48:10
I haven't listened to the entire set. And it does sound like a modern piano. I look forward to comparing it to the 1890 Erard. Unlike genungo, I like Satie and his eccentric, quirky humor.

 

Clearly a modern piano on the Debussy I've listened to so far..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 20:54:56
Ivan303
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And yes, she takes her time!

If you like Satie I think you will enjoy her take.

It's a great recording, and who knows?

Maybe even Chris will like the 1890 Erard? ;-)



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Not a chance! ;-), posted on July 11, 2016 at 23:21:47
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. . . although that Zenph Rachmaninoff "Re-performance" album on Sony uses a restored 1904 Steinway AFAIR - not bad at all, especially via the multi-channel download.

 

Another thread hijack, Chris? ;-), posted on July 12, 2016 at 06:17:19
From Satie to Rachmaninoff, and from an 1890 Erard to Zenph multi-channel download. Can Zenph be programmed to post pictures of babes and complaints about serialism? If so ...

 

In seems Chris is in luck..., posted on July 12, 2016 at 06:50:07
Ivan303
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The Satie is available in 'FLAC 24-bit Surround 5.0' at e!classical below:



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Found it on Apple Music late last night, posted on July 12, 2016 at 07:05:10
srl1
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Only had time for the three Gymnopedies. Two things struck me. One, the piano really sounds different. Two, she plays with more accents on the "melody" line. I remember other Satie recordings to be much more flowing and smooth. I'll try to find time to listen to the rest tonight.

By the way. eclassical.com has just put Vadim Gluzman's two Prokofiev Violin Concertos up for sale (special price of $9.05 which includes 24/96 surround)!

 

RE: Gluzman..., posted on July 12, 2016 at 07:43:34
Ivan303
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Why am I not finding a CD/SACD on Amazon, even for pre-order?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Not really. . . , posted on July 12, 2016 at 08:12:23
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"From Satie to Rachmaninoff" - Yup, bear with me. . .

"and from an 1890 Erard to Zenph multi-channel download." Uh, yeah - except that the logical progression was "and from an 1890 Erard to a 1904 Steinway" (which happens to be available as a multi-channel download - just like the 1890 Erard recording).

QED. ;-)

 

I might be missing something, but... I never got a satisfactory explanation re: Zenph, posted on July 12, 2016 at 08:33:25
John Marks
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I inquired as to what degree that progress was hands-off computer number crunching and to what extent there was human intervention, and the answer I received was not at all satisfactory.

On many modern, computer/MIDI-based piano playback systems, there is the ability to "go back in" to the command files and literally clean things up--move events in time, change the nature of an event, etc.

My position on the matter is, sure, Rachmaninoff cut some piano rolls. But unless there is a computer program that takes what is on the piano roll and translates it to a modern playback piano system with no human intervention, then... we are hearing some fallible human's IMPROVEMENT or RE-INTERPRETATION of a piano roll.

Which I don't have a problem with. What I do have a problem with is the PR claim that what we are hearing is 100% Rachmaninoff.


Chris, what is your take on that?

John

 

Downloaded and..., posted on July 12, 2016 at 09:26:34
Ivan303
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Listening now using VLC on my laptop with USB out to Audio=GD DAC/Headphone amp, which is NOT a bad system, even from the MacBook Air.

Still haven't figured out how to load downloads into iTunes/Bit Perfect on my main system Mac Mini but should have that done soon.

Yes, of course it's fantastic.

G L U Z M A N !




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Zenph is not based on piano rolls (you thinking of Telarc?) - more later [nt], posted on July 12, 2016 at 09:27:45
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Just bustin' ya. ;-), posted on July 12, 2016 at 09:51:33
But so long as we're changing the subject from Satie and Ms. Ogawa, I will say that the Zenph Art Tatum did not impress me at all. It just did not sound like the real Art.
Nevertheless, I see Steinway now owns Zenph and is using the technology to make an electronic player piano. So maybe my comment about you becoming obsolete has become the real topic of this thread. ;-)

 

Satie, posted on July 12, 2016 at 10:25:28
TGR
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There was a notice of this release in the Gramophone issue that featured Satie on the cover(an issue back). I haven't honestly heard that much Satie, besides the usual suspects, but the article was interesting enough to make me want to seek out more. The only Satie I own is volume I of the Aldo Ciccolini series.

By the way, a few years ago my wife and I were walking through the Montmartre neighborhood in Paris, and came across the house Satie lived in when he lived in Montmartre. Small. I took a picture, which I need to dig up.

 

well thank you for sharing, posted on July 12, 2016 at 12:24:52
mbnx01
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Please continue to butt into threads about things you aren't interested in and don't like.




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: well thank you for sharing, posted on July 12, 2016 at 12:51:43
Uhm, It's obvious that I was interested in details related to the CD he mentioned. Although it wasn't about the music, the question was relevant to things he had already mentioned.

 

Here's the "more", posted on July 12, 2016 at 15:53:55
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So Zenph "re-recordings" are derived from actual recordings (mostly 78's, although their first release was the Gould Goldbergs from the LP mono era), which are subjected to computer analysis and processing which outputs a file which can be played on an actual piano from today, which can then be re-recorded without all the noisy artifacts (hiss, surface noise, etc.) and limited frequencies and dynamics of the original older recordings. I bought three of them: the Gould ('55) Goldbergs, the Rachmaninoff (in my post above), and the "Spanish Masters" album where Granados and de Falla "accompany" Isabel Bayrakdarian and Zuill Bailey. I consider the last of these kind of hokey (despite the fact that it has the best average rating on Amazon of the three Zenph classical releases - go figure!) because, far from accompanying or collaborating with with the cellist and the singer, the pre-existing recordings of Granados and de Falla place their collaborators in rhythmic and dynamic straight-jackets - just the opposite of an actual collaboration. (Kind of like playing with the old Music Minus One discs!)

The Gould recording was frustrating because the Zenph processing was not really needed - that '55 technology, although mono only, was just not that bad! Another issue to many listeners (but not to me) was that the Zenph "re-performance" was made on a Yamaha piano, whereas Gould used a Steinway on the original.

I guess Zenph took this criticism to heart, because they used a 1904 instrument for their Rachmaninoff release. I was originally very disappointed in this release (on CD - it was never available on SACD), because I felt that the piano was lacking in power and its tone quality just seemed wan. Subsequently, a 24/96 quad download was made available (on the iTrax site and other sites), and my listening to this incarnation changed my opinion of the sound quality and the success of the processing rather dramatically - another instance where one's perception of the performance itself can be changed by how well the engineering on the recording has been executed. I also must say that criticisms of this recording, such as Farhan Malik's one-star review on Amazon, strike me as surprisingly naive: Malik goes into conniptions over how the performances on the Zenph recording do not have the same "character" as the ones on the original 78's. Well duh!!! Of course it's not going to sound exactly the same: the Zenph recording is of a different piano (even one it's one from 1904), in a different acoustic, recorded with a different microphone, etc., etc., etc. How could it NOT sound different? Nevertheless, it still bears the stamp of Rachmaninoff's playing (at least as I understand it from having heard all of his 78's).

To me, the extant Zenph catalogue represents the squandering of an opportunity, in the sense that every one of their three classical releases has some strike against it which has nothing to do with the Zenph process itself. Nevertheless, I hope that the Zenph process will continue to be developed and refined, resulting in the release of many more historic recordings which IMHO need this kind of technology. If I ran the company, I would:
  • choose VERY old recordings which need the Zenph technology the most (IOW, something recorded in 1925, not 1955)
  • choose the very best sounding modern pianos to "re-record" with, and not bother with antiquarian fetishes
  • make all of my releases available in hi-rez, multi-channel technology (whether discs or downloads)


So, despite all this verbiage, John, I see that I haven't really answered your question, which was whether I approved of human intervention in the processing and release of these kinds of recordings - processing and "intervention" which could make them even better than they originally sounded (or even better than the original player executed them!). Like you, I don't have a problem with any of this, but also like you, I would like the process to be totally honest and transparent. The companies should let their potential buyers know what each process entails. And the claim that we are hearing, say, 100% Rachmaninoff via this kind of processing should contain enough weasel words so the buyers know what's up! In a way, this is not so different from Madeline's (my wife's) wish that all recordings should come with some basic information, such as how many edits were used in the final master - IOW, truth in advertising!

OTOH, we know that some piano rolls themselves (I'm back to piano rolls again) were subject, even at the time, to ex post facto processing which evened out the timing, etc., and made the piano roll performances even more super-human sounding than the real performances from the celebrated artists who recorded them! So, even as we bemoan modern artists' and engineers' addiction to editing, we should also remember that, in some respects, it has always been thus! ;-)

 

"how to load downloads into iTunes/Bit Perfect on my main system Mac Mini", posted on July 12, 2016 at 16:23:52
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but, once you've converted the FLAC's to AIFF's (iTunes doesn't play nice with FLAC's), don't you just need to move the AIFF's into your iTunes music folder, and then the next time you open iTunes, select "Add to Library" from the File menu, find and select the folder you just added, and. . . Voila! It should be there?

Since I downloaded the multi-channel file, I don't use iTunes for playback in any case. (iTunes doesn't play nice with hi-rez multi-channel either!) In any case, I've only listened to the first and third movements of the Prokofiev 2 (my favorite violin concerto) so far - dynamite performance AND engineering, even though I've heard more subterranean bass drums on a couple of other recordings. It's so exciting for me, now that eClassical is making their new BIS multi-channel files available - I think they will be releasing the long delayed final installment of the Vanska/Minnesota Sibelius Symphonies very soon too.

Now all that remains is to compare Gluzman with Heifetz and JJ. I was just checking through the listings though, and it looks as if I've missed a couple recently:



I wonder if that's leather that Mayuko is wearing. . .

 

Thanks for all that!, posted on July 12, 2016 at 17:07:04
I've only heard the Zenph Glenn Gould and Art Tatum. As for Gould, I think you're exactly right -- it wasn't really necessary, though it sounded rather good to me. And didn't the real Glenn Gould switch to Yamaha at some point? But the Art Tatum was not as successful to me, somehow stilted and artificial. Maybe that's my prejudice, though I didn't have that feeling about the Gould.
It really goes back to John Marks' question -- aside from taking out the clicks and pops, just what does the Zenph program do, and how accurately does it reproduce the music without introducing estimations or approximations? Of course, introducing clarity and full, distortion-free dynamic range may be worth some sacrifice, but just what if anything is being sacrificed in the process?

 

I'm sure that something was sacrificed, posted on July 12, 2016 at 18:36:11
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But, like you, I was favorably impressed with the Zenph Gould Goldbergs (but not everybody, even on this board, was similarly impressed) and, once I heard it in hi-rez quad, I liked the Rachmaninoff album too. So for me, whatever was lost or sacrificed was less than what was gained in the fullness of tone and dynamics as well as the freedom from noisy distractions.

 

RE: I'm sure that something was sacrificed, posted on July 12, 2016 at 19:10:57
Yes, but of course, one could get a brand spankin' new high rez Rachmaninoff recording by someone else rather than listen to cleaned-up pseudo Rachmaninoff himself. If they're audibly altering the performance, what's the point?
For example, I can see how switching Gould's 1955 Goldbergs to a Yamaha piano could annoy people. But perhaps because Gould himself ultimately switched to Yamaha, it doesn't overly offend my ears. Also, I suspect that when the source material sounds better, and the original Gould Goldbergs does sound pretty good, the Zenph result is better. But I'd guess the earlier, higher noise, higher distortion 78s might not work out as well, at least in terms of accurately reproducing the original, which is what many care about most for historical material.

 

Still seems like a waste of time and resources to me..., posted on July 12, 2016 at 19:14:56
I'd still rather have a clean original or a brilliant "original remaster". Or perhaps better yet, something completely new.

But to each his own, I guess.

I did buy the Tatum Zenph (but mostly because I wanted to hear it in binaural).

Thanks for the exhaustive reply though. As usual, you have shown that really know your stuff!

 

RE: "how to load downloads into iTunes/Bit Perfect on my main system Mac Mini", posted on July 12, 2016 at 19:44:47
Ivan303
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1. Take silver disk out of jewel case.

2. Put silver disk in CD tray.

3. Push 'play' on remote control.

That's how Ivan rolls!





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

And there's nothing wrong with that, posted on July 12, 2016 at 22:50:51
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I just thought you were somehow puzzled by the process of getting hi-rez downloads into your iTunes library.

And besides, you left out a few steps:

1. Find the jewel case in the first place (not always easy!)

2. Take the silver disc out of the jewel case

3. Put the silver disc in the CD tray

4. Press 'play' on the remote control

5. When the disc is done, press 'open' on the remote control

6. Take the disc from the tray and put it back into the jewel case

7. Press 'close' on the player or the remote control

8. Put the jewel case back on the shelf and hope you remember where it is the next time you want to listen to that particular CD.

As I said, nothing wrong with this. ;-)

 

Well, I'd love to find out in any case, posted on July 12, 2016 at 22:56:42
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And I think it's perhaps overstating it to call the Zenph versions "pseudo Rachmaninoff".

 

Yeah - but I downloaded that new Gluzman/Prokofiev album instead ;-), posted on July 12, 2016 at 23:03:40
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Total cost for the whole 24/96 multi-channel album during the promotional period: $9.10! Thank you, Robert - VERY much!

 

What I meant by that, posted on July 13, 2016 at 06:20:39
was, Zenph might produce an excellent-sounding result that nevertheless is somehow audibly different from the original in some systematic way or ways. Some would be happy with that, others may reject it. You and Farhan Malik might differ. I didn't mean to make a value judgment on something I haven't heard.

 

RE: And there's nothing wrong with that, posted on July 13, 2016 at 06:38:04
Ivan303
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Sad to say I often ignore 5 through 8. =:-0

Did forget one though, and that is getting the plastic wrap off the new jewel case.

And yes, like most of the files on my computer, I have no idea where many of my CDs are 'filed' away at any one time. Good news is, as prices drop, I can always buy duplicates.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

and then it was gone from Apple Music!, posted on July 13, 2016 at 07:59:53
srl1
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Went back last night to listen to the rest of the new Ogawa/Satie album, and it was gone! Someone must have jumped the gun and put it online early by mistake. Oh, well. I do have it coming in via MDT any day now, so not all is lost.

No sign of the Gluzman at MDT, either.

 

Looks like BIS pulled it from QOBUZ as well...., posted on July 13, 2016 at 08:12:59
Ivan303
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Just the first 30 seconds of tracks plays in MP3 format now. :-(


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

That's another thing that's cheap besides storage - CD's I mean! ;-), posted on July 13, 2016 at 08:21:25
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(Notwithstanding the asking prices of certain CD's!)

 

I think Gould's switch to Yamaha was rather toward the end., posted on July 13, 2016 at 17:02:28
John Marks
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First of all, thanks, Chris. Yes, I was asleep there, my memory misled by Tatum and Rachmaninoff. When years ago I asked the question and later discussed the response I received with JA, I knew that it was based on processing an audio recording, but, the question is the same:

Does the algorithm call all the shots, or, is there human intervention?

I am not at all an expert on piano technique, but, I do know that there are many subtle things a pianist can do in live performance (such as silently pressing a key down so that those strings can ring harmonically) that pre-hi-fi recordings might not catch. Just an example off the top of my head, and it might be faulty or false.

rbolaw, my understanding was that late in his career, Gould snitted at Steinway because he reportedly thought that his wishes were not being acted upon promptly. I do know that the 1982 Goldbergs "reconsideration" (not so if you know the 1954 CBC acetates) was recorded on a Yamaha.

BTW, I have never received a satisfactory answer to the presence of the "mouse orchestra" buried in one variation of the 1982 recording, but, one hypothesis is that it is leakage from the machine room where someone was rewinding or fast-forwarding a tape.

ATB,

John

 

Yup - I think that late set of Haydn Sonatas was also recorded on a Yamaha, posted on July 13, 2016 at 21:09:42
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Funny how one uses the Hoboken numbering and the other uses the Christa Landon numbering. ;-)

 

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