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Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters

70.90.149.242
Posted on April 21, 2016 at 13:12:58
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 Toscanini/NBC SO
BMG, recorded 12/21/1951 Carnegie Hall

Despite the evident discipline, there's still a touch of heaviness in the phrasing. The airy lightness that Monteux brings isn't there. Toscanini is just a bit too emphatic; as if emphasising the downbeat. He takes the exposition repeat [for those who don't know what that is, let me know and I'll 'splain it to you].

Toscanini gives the trumpet a touch of emphasis in the development climax [which Furtwangler doesn't do] giving it more urgency; very nice. As the 1st movement goes along, you're drawn into the performance, rather than questioning it or being repelled by it, as is the case with some of the other performances below. The tempo is sprightly, but not the mindlessly rushing charge that's become the rule with recent HIP-inspired or actual HIP performances.

The 2nd movement proves to be a real challenge for conductors. To my mind, the trick is not to make it sound like some poor Haydn substitute. Tempo plays a large part, but it's not the only element. This is a slow movement, yet many post-HIP conductors play it at an actual allegro tempo. Here, I find Toscanini to be just barely a shade quick, but otherwise almost just right.

The scherzo [yes, that's what I call it, as do many analysts and commentators] is exactly right in phrasing and tempo. Superbly done. The finale opening chord is voiced just right. Toscanini takes the movement vivace, which is what's indicated in the score. More joyful than Szell. Toscanini is more emphatic than Monteux, but just as joyful. All around, excellent, IMO.


Furtwangler/VPO
Recorded in the Musikversaal, 11/24/1952

The introduction is heavy and emphatic, with a luftpausen. The following Allegro con brio gets about the same tempo as Karajan [1962], but faster and better than Klemperer. The playing is disciplined. The tempo and phrasing are varied almost bar by bar. No exposition repeat. He brings out wind color. The recording is in pretty good mono, and you hear everything. Despite the heaviness, you don't feel pulled down by it, but rather you get the sense of the music being compelling.

However, in the slow movement, the heavy dragging tempo feels as if the music will be submerged. The tempo is also heavy in the scherzo, altho with the return of the scherzo [after the trio] the tempo is a bit faster. No repeats. The finale is animated and grand, altho still heavy. However, Furtwangler creates a sense of scale. The playing of the VPO is marvelous, and their strings have that recognizable VPO sweetness.

Kocsis/NFZ
In concert recording on youtube

Right off the bat, the sound of the orchestra has a vacant, desolate, hard sound. I listened to this thing without looking at the screen so that my opinion wouldn't be influenced by the conductor's antics or facial expressions, or the site of the musicians mugging for the camera. Then, I went back a second time and watched. This performance demonstrates everything wrong with HIP-inspired, me-too, copycat performances, where the [alleged] conductor doesn't really understand the music, and hasn't really thought it through.

What Kocsis does is to have the first and second violins play with minimal or no vibrato, while the celli and bases mostly play normally. WHAT???? Who the **** came up with that goofy idea? Is some self-appointed HIP dude conductor now claiming that that's the way orchestras played back in Beethoven's day? Even if they did, does it serve the music?

Anyway, the tempo's just short of being too fast, meaning that it's pretty fast. But, the phrasing, feeling , and playing are totally blank. There's no affection, no joy, no sense of discovering Beethoven or conveying his ideas. Absolutely no insights at all. Moving into the second movement, Kocsis takes an allegro tempo so that the slow movement becomes a minuet. It sounds backward, silly, and worse of all - trivial.

Somehow, he hits the scherzo just right. He takes the first scherzo repeat. Zero pause for the trio. No time - were rushing. The trio's taken a a way too fast tempo and badly phrased, so that there's zero contrast to the scherzo. That pretty much wastes it. It's pointless to ask about the charm it's supposed to have. There it goes, straight into the trash can.

By the finale, the wan, vibrato-free type sound has really worn on my nerves, to the point that I have to force myself to keep listening. Beethoven shouldn't be an exercise in self-inflicted torture, such as some weird medieval religious ritual, or listening to the Serialists. Kocsis launches an absurdly fast tempo, with absolutely no flexibility, feeling, warmth, or any thought other than the go as fast as possible. Amazingly, the orchestra plays cleanly.

Kegel/Dresden Phil

Back in the mid-80s, the Kegel Beethoven cycle was praised to the skies. Fanfare reviewers seemed to regard it as the new standard. Then, in the tide of HIPs, it just fell away, and it's hardly even remembered nowadays.

The introduction has gorgeous, silky strings. Kegel is too emphatic on the downbeat, bring some heaviness to the phrasing. The tempo's just a bit too heavy; nothing like Monteux's lightness. However, every section of the orchestra's ideally balanced, so that you get a nice, open, and clear sound. Only the basses are too light, which makes a difference since Beethoven gives them some exposed passages, which fail to be heard well.

Kegel misses the second movement, taking it at a minuet tempo and playing it like a backward looking, rather than forward, piece. He also screws up the scherzo. It's slow, with heavy articulation. Clumsy sounding. The trio is also taken too slowly. The opening of the finale's pretty good. He takes the exposition repeat. The allegro's almost approaching the right tempo, but the articulation's so heavy. What Monteux achieved so effortlessly and naturally seems to be out of grasp for some many conductors.

Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

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    ...
You need to learn to appreciate differences., posted on April 22, 2016 at 07:55:00
oldmkvi
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Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 And write something vaguely interesting...

 

Well. . . at least he's providing some context. . . , posted on April 22, 2016 at 08:19:57
Chris from Lafayette
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Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 . . . for his opinions, rather than merely stating "I like this" (or not). Of course, we all (myself included) resort to a kind of "I like" or "I don't like" shorthand on occasion, but I don't think someone should be criticized for adding additional detail, even if you find the details uninteresting, or you don't agree with the observations - and if you don't agree, feel free to point out where he's gone astray! ;-)

 

He makes his opinions into fact- A is good, B is bad. , posted on April 22, 2016 at 09:06:20
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Too many uneducated , non musicians judging what people who have spent their entire lives studying, listening, composing and performing are doing.
There is NO ONE WAY in music.
He takes himself so seriously, like he is doing us a favor to post his opinions,
probably thinks he is Educating us.
He annoys me no end!
5 long posts on Beeth Sym #1.
Fascinating...

 

I used to forbid my students. ..., posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:11:18
D Harvey
Manufacturer

Posts: 5563
Location: SE Michigan
Joined: May 30, 2001
 ...from badmouthing any player whose stuff they couldn't execute as well or better themselves. Nothing more annoying than a verbose "expert" who doesn't even know how to hold an instrument. ..or a baton for that matter. Put up or shut up when it comes to calling out who you think sucks at this stuff.
dh

 

5 long posts ----, posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:15:55
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 and still more to come.

Oy yoy yoy

yoy yoy

[as my grandma would say].

This one's only part 4 of 5, and there's a possibility that the next one may become 5 of 7.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

LOL. Guess you weren't around for his first batch of musical wisdom dispensed years ago., posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:31:07
Rick W
 So far his recent posts are restrained compared to the Severius of old. Better get used to it. Judging from his previous iteration he'll be posting for quite a while.

If you're gonna continue to respond I suggest keeping a bottle of Prilosec handy.

 

As If, posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:32:56
Newey
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Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 Yeah, right.

Put up or shut up? Ha Ha Ha. Yeah, that's one step away from Putin's KGB-styled Russia, where it's "Put up AND shut up". Or, get shot like a dog in the streets, even steps away from the Kremlin. No worries - the Chechen's did it!

I didn't see any of these sour, pissed off responses to JDaniels's Beethoven One post, where he mercilessly panned Solti [and he was completely off-base - you want "joyless" and "hard driven"? Kocsis, Morris, Bruggen, and most of the HIPs are the very embodiment of that; I'll have more detail in my next post in this series [5 of 6, or 5 of 7, or who knows?].

I know what your problem is here. You and the other guy. If I'd had nothing but praise for HIPs, you guys would be pleased as punch; thigh-slapping happy, sagely head-nodding agreement solid. Solid, bro.

Even worse, it not just that I didn't like the HIP-styled Kocsis performance - that's bad enough. But - it WHAT I SPECIFICALLY said about it and the HIPs that really twisted the knife - didn't it?

THAT was the stinger. And, why? Why? Cause what I said was so stingingly true. Among HIP listeners, HIP acquired "truths" and conclusions are unquestionable. That's exactly the way cults and various political movements operate. Am I suggesting the the HIP movement's a cult? Oooooo. Is that offensive? Will you demand that I be banned?

Besides forbidding independent thought among your students with your 'put up - shut up" dictum, did you also punish diverse opinions? Diversity is the keyword of the day, you know.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

Expressing his opinions with actual reasons -- more than most people around here do [nt], posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:33:47
Amphissa
Audiophile

Posts: 2717
Location: Zardoz
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 .

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

first batch of musical wisdom, posted on April 22, 2016 at 10:49:14
Newey
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Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 I was 100% correct almost every time. Even when I erred - as I said back then - my errors were more correct and valuable as music teaching than the 'correct' ideas of others.

BUT - there was a huge difference. The crowd frequenting this site back then were musically uneducated and illiterate. They knew almost nothing about music. I had long, endless battles just trying to prove the value of learning music theory and music history. Almost everyone back then was extremely hostile to the very suggestion of that.

The guys around here back then would form the most erroneous conclusions about music on the basis of their lack of knowledge, fortified by their attempt to understand what they were reading in liner notes. That's why I would call them 'musically ignorant, with a CD player and a boatload of opinions'.

That problem's almost disappeared around here now. Many of the guys here know way, way more about music than I do. I no longer have to BATTLE ignorance as I did back then. Heck, the moderator - Chris - is a professional pianist!

We have guys who can read scores and who - and this's absolutely key - understand harmony and therefore can - and do - therefore analyze scores. One such guy's an enemy and a pest - but I'd hands-down rather deal with him every time than with some guys who knows zero - but who defends to the death some massively erroneous conclusion based on lack of training.

But, life on earth's never easy. No garden of Eden - ever. You git that after you die [tho probably not in the form you're expecting]. That's why certain politicians promising a sudden "golden tomorrow" make me laugh. I've seen it all before.

So, problems here remain - and I MUST FIGHT THEM. What problems? Hah. Well, let's jest start with the legitimacy of HIPs, for openers.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

Actually, that was his second batch, posted on April 22, 2016 at 11:33:16
jec01
Audiophile

Posts: 1462
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Joined: September 22, 2004
 In his first incarnation, he used the moniker SPL. Do a little search and see what his posts looked like then. His manners have (marginally) improved since then.

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

If you can't read music, how can you even begin to understand music theory? That said..., posted on April 22, 2016 at 11:36:11
jdaniel@jps.net
 Your posts have been less offensive lately.

 

Thanks Rick and jec01 for the Context!, posted on April 22, 2016 at 11:44:16
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I guess I'll just have to let him be him.
He.
Whatever...

 

I Read Music, posted on April 22, 2016 at 11:50:36
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 My reading is just slow.

I learned violin in 4th grade, and [obviously], that's when music reading began. But, I had no talent for playing. None.

In college, I almost minored in music. Coursework included harmony & counterpoint, solfege, history, and piano. But, playing was horrible. I had to quit after a year.


Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters, posted on April 22, 2016 at 12:38:24
Diogenes
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Joined: February 17, 2014
 Bitter old men

 

Well, I look forward to your thoughts on Scherchen's Beethoven. Nt, posted on April 22, 2016 at 12:43:42
jdaniel@jps.net
 N

 

I'm Flattered That I've Affected Your Life, posted on April 22, 2016 at 12:58:39
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 And, that you've followed my writing over these [now] decades, even going as far back as my SPL days.

I hope that you've benefited from my posts.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: I Read Music, posted on April 22, 2016 at 13:12:31
briggs
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Connecticut
Joined: April 16, 2002
 You have my sympathy when it comes to lack of talent. Music has long been one of the most important and enjoyable things in my life, but, after years of piano lessons and some modest success playing the double bass, it became obvious that my best instrument would be the record player.

As for Beethoven's First Symphony, I don't have all the readings you have reviewed, but I do have several and am in general agreement with your comments.

 

RE: Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters, posted on April 22, 2016 at 19:02:36
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 Hi Newey - I would like, as a professional brass player, to make a comment on something you posted, to clear up a misunderstanding that many audiophiles still have.

You wrote: "Toscanini gives the trumpet a touch of emphasis in the development climax [which Furtwangler doesn't do] giving it more urgency; very nice."

What you are writing of here has absolutely nothing to to with either Toscanini or Furtwangler. Too many people still attribute WAY too much of what they hear to the influence of the conductor, and not the musicians themselves. What you are hearing here is simply the difference between not only the trumpet players in question, but the actual instruments they are using. In Vienna, they use to this day simpler, rotary valve trumpets, that have a much warmer and darker tone than most more modern instruments (same with the horns, by the way). The American players in the NBC Symphony, on the other hand, are using much brighter instruments - hence the difference you hear, which you do perceive correctly - you have merely attributed it to the conductor instead of to the players. Neither set of players is playing any louder than the other here - what you are hearing is the difference in the timbre of their trumpets, and their own personal sounds - which conductors almost NEVER mess with in any significant way, particularly in orchestras of that caliber. It is quite possible that neither conductor ever said a word to the trumpet section in the making of these recordings - the trumpets have just about the easiest parts in that particular symphony, and both those orchestras know how to play Beethoven, it is needless to say.

 

Ah - Interesting - Gracias [nt], posted on April 22, 2016 at 19:23:42
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 g
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

Thanks , posted on April 22, 2016 at 19:26:01
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 BTW - I didn't review the music. Hardly qualified to do so. That's for professionals.

However, I did engage in what we all love to do - compare different recordings. Well, at least it seems that you enjoy doing. I love it.

Glad we have common ground in this piece.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters, posted on April 22, 2016 at 21:25:28
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 It is so significant that it has made the VPO,sound notable and distinct from other fine orchestra's and the Heckel style instrument has such a warm sound.

 

RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound, posted on April 23, 2016 at 05:43:22
kitch29
 From Trombone Forum

 

RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound, posted on April 23, 2016 at 07:10:13
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Thank you so much for sending me this link. Fascinating and provocative. I will now have to look at every trombone each time I go to a concert. Do orchestra members have a choice in cho0sing their instrument in each brass section?

 

RE: Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters, posted on April 23, 2016 at 08:06:25
genungo
 Ah, so the Viennese are *semi-HIP*?

 

Like hiding spinach in a sausage. : ) nt, posted on April 23, 2016 at 08:16:46
jdaniel@jps.net
 N

 

Well, here are mine., posted on April 23, 2016 at 08:17:40
rbolaw
 I just listened to Scherchen's Beethoven 1st, and alas, I suspect it isn't for Mr. Newey, if nothing else due to the reduced-size orchestra, though I suspect that was due to recording studio requirements and not Scherchen's artistic decision. You might say that gives it a bit of a HIP feel, though this is no HIP performance in terms of instruments, tuning, etc.
What I like about Scherchen is his ability to produce rhythmic energy without rushing the tempos. Elsewhere in this thread some orchestral players talk about how many of the details one hears are in the control of the players, not the conductor. But I think the conductor contributes a lot to the overall shape and feel, even when he didn't personally hand pick the players, as Toscanini and Szell did. Anyway, I've always been a Scherchen fan. His is a style I don't often hear today.

 

RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound, posted on April 23, 2016 at 22:39:49
learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008
 One thing that I want to point out about the discussion linked here is the fact that the German made trombones were only in common use here in the US up until about 1950. That was over sixty years ago! However, it is true, as they say on there, that American brass players in general were heavily influenced back then by German playing styles - many of the great players and teachers that came over to the US in the 20s through the 40s were German, and American brass playing grew out of their styles. Both of my major teachers came from schools of playing that were originally German or Austrian, though their teachers were born in the US.

To answer the question below, yes, players choose their own instruments. Sometimes a section will choose to all play the exact same make of instrument, sometimes not. At one point, my section did for a few years, but mostly it has not. There are four of us in our horn section at the moment, with one open position, and only two of us play the same make of horn. The days of it being mandatory to play the same type of horn as the rest of the section are almost completely over in the US. This is one reason why regional styles are dying out, and brass sections are sounding more and more the same everywhere. It is much harder to tell different sections apart now than it was fifty years ago, that's for sure!

 

RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound, posted on April 24, 2016 at 07:34:40
kitch29
 Don't bother too much with scrutinizing the trombones. Likely, they'll all be Edwards. Only Dinosaurs like some of the NYPO and Chicago players still use the once ubiquitous Conn 88H or Bach 36s and 42s. Now that UMI owns, like the Politburo, all the means of production, the resultant shoddy workmanship has bred a few small custom manufacturers, dominated by the Edwards Co.

 

RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound, posted on April 24, 2016 at 08:10:29
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Appreciative. It is still intriguing to identify the 'brass sound' of a specific orchestra. NYPO has many deficiencies ,(mainly the strings,never thought it was just the hall.) but the brass section has always been its strength, at least to me. You offered a reason that makes sense. Thanks again.

 

Thanks and couldn't agree more. I'm sorry Scherchen wasn't recorded more. , posted on April 24, 2016 at 09:21:39
jdaniel@jps.net
 Still looking forward to his Berlioz and Rimsky. Can you imagine his Schererazade? Can't wait.

 

NYPO Strings, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:24:44
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 Could you elaborate on the weakness of the NYPO strings? That's all I used read in the press back in the day.

But, as I listen to the Bernstein/NYPO Symphonies Box, so far all I've heard is an superb, confident, rich string section.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: NYPO Strings, posted on April 26, 2016 at 20:02:15
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Newey: First, I have not heard the NYPO outside of Geffen Hall (which will close in a few weeks for about two years.) expect in several outdoor concerts. Friends have actually heard them play in Tanglewood(outdoors) and felt as I did. But as for the Columbia recordings that you own. I had stack of Bernstein performances, on that record label and he entire sound on those LP's is very restricted, as much as their orchestral recording was. their epic label always sounded much better. My point being: the sound stinks with little reverb depth or the ability to place sections. What you are hearing is not what I am hearing on my records. I can specifically recall the Mahler 2 and 3, the latter of which i think is one of the great Mahler 3's in the catalogue.I played these records on electrostatics or planers.
Now for the live stuff, all at Lincoln Center. I do not trust my memory of the Bernstein performances live. But from Boulez on I felt there is "hard flat, hardly robust, but loud and harsh as the volume increases. The cellos which is supposed to be the foundation of the section never achieves that sweeping, ocean like bellow vibrato sound(coming from the belly that might hear from Cleveland, BPO VPO etc.The viols and violins are segmented on top of cellos and basses, sound like a poor mid range on and inexpensive hi-fi. No bloom. I heard a Mahler 8 with Maazel,and he had the orchestra in balance with the huge chorus. A full evening of German romantic music can be grating.I have listened in all sections of the hall and the sound softens little. It is and has always been since Bernstein an unhappy orchestra.Again I do not know how you can make a judgement even from the remaster Sony Bernstein recordings, as the limitations remain. Maybe the Hall has forced the strings to play in an unnatural way.(By the way there has been a major turnover in that section with Julliard infusion but it is still the same to my ears. (As you know Hall and orchestra has been measured a million time and the conclusion-REBUILD THE HALL.

 

RE: NYPO Strings, posted on April 26, 2016 at 20:11:34
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 There were Berstein performances recorded at City Center, which sound better, but are still dumbed down by the Columbia engineers. The engineers also screwed up a lot of Miles Davis,, other jazz and the Marloboro festival performances. a great loss.

 

"their epic label always sounded much better", posted on April 27, 2016 at 07:59:15
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26434
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 Whose Epic label (recordings)? Did you mean the Cleveland Orchestra, rather than the NYPO? (BTW, as you may know, I very much agree if you're talking about the Cleveland Orchestra, but AFAIK, the NYPO never recorded for Epic.)

 

RE: "their epic label always sounded much better", posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:30:36
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Just meant that Epic was owned by Columbia. NYPO never recorded on that label . But there were studio recordings in the old City Center which did sound better, gthan Geffen Hall.. To me Cleve. was one of the great orchestra ever with or without Szell. Love their sound and to me preferable to even the great European orchestras of the 1960's and 70's. ASn open and creative group .

 

you didn't KNOW that?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 00:55:54
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 LOL!


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

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