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Stereo piano music

4.30.163.10
Posted on November 10, 2015 at 15:27:04
newvinyl
 I do not like recorded piano music where the low notes are recorded in the left channel and the high notes are recorded in the right channel (or visa versa). It does not sound like a real piano. Sometimes l'll convert the digital file to mono, and I enjoy that much more.

Is there something wrong with my system - I'm thinking mostly room treatments. Is stereo separated piano music suppose to meld into a whole when played back?

 

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It's even worse in some multi-channel recordings, posted on November 10, 2015 at 15:47:11
Chris from Lafayette
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 There's a recording of Koroliov playing the Debussy Preludes on a Tacet DVD-Audio (probably on a blu-ray audio now), where they intentionally recorded in such a way that the keyboard is surrounding you, 270 degrees. So I say, count your blessings! ;-)



Tacet is a big believer in active rear channels, and most other companies don't make their multi-channel recordings in this way. There's a wonderful Chandos multi-channel download available of Bavouzet playing some solo works by Massenet, where the piano image in front is very centered. (The center channel helps.)

 

RE: Stereo piano music, posted on November 10, 2015 at 16:15:01
PAR
 Some examples may help us to know what you are referring to. I haven't come across anything like this since (perhaps) Roger Woodward in Opus III in the 70s on RCA. But my recollection may be mistaken.

 

There are two approaches to recording solo piano music..., posted on November 10, 2015 at 17:06:34
John Marks
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There are two approaches to recording solo piano music...

The "classical" approach is to record what a person sitting in row 5 of the recital hall would hear, at right angles to the keyboard--a blended sound, but ntl with some low to hi spatial differentation.

The "pop" or "modern" approach is to suspend the mics left and right over the soundboard and behind the hammers, in parallel with the keyboard.

That can be more immediate, but it also can deliver the artificial sound of a piano 11 feet wide, and bring on listener fatigue.

The piano recording in the past few years that has most impressed me for its naturalness is Alan Feinberg's "Basically Bull," which has the added benefits of unique programming and truly inspired playing.

Well worth buying.

Miss it at your peril.

John Marks
The Former and Future, That Is

 

No it's an effect, posted on November 10, 2015 at 19:26:13
David Smith
 Like a lot of things in recording, painting not photographing. I'm not a fan of it either with respect to the piano.

Dave

 

RE: Stereo piano music, posted on November 10, 2015 at 20:11:06
k-k-k-kenny
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 No piano of woman born sounds strictly bass-left treble-right from any perspective, for the lower strings cross over those of the middle register and, in any event, much of the sound of the entire instrument comes from the whole of the sounding board beneath the frame, just as the sound of a fiddle comes from the whole of the body and that of the banjo comes from the bottom of the well.
Recordings such as those made by Pro Piano are taken from a player's perspective, with mics behind or alongside the performer, and do tend a bit towards left-right; those done for 5th-row perspective just have bass and treble swirling together; those done close-miced to the strings CAN tend left-right to the extent that they are badly positioned and pick up (too much) string noise rather than sounding board richness.
Some older or cheaper electronic instruments have a strict left-right "stereo" thing going that's kinda bleagh. To be avoided.
If you are hearing major separation my guess is that it's bad recording technique.

 

I Agree Completely, posted on November 10, 2015 at 21:30:37
Newey
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Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 I hate it when record companies record pianos that way.

Also, way up close violins, sounding like Hulk violins.

Also, sticking all of the winds over on the left, rather than in the center.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: Stereo piano music, posted on November 11, 2015 at 03:32:53
Bill the K
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Posts: 8383
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Maybe it will sound right if both speakers are placed in the center side by side for piano and certain violin music. I dont know how enjoyable that would be, like mono.

Cheers
Bill

 

There are times when I embrace mono [nt], posted on November 11, 2015 at 17:19:09
Amphissa
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Posts: 2717
Location: Zardoz
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 .

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Just the other day.........................., posted on November 12, 2015 at 08:21:38
Kal Rubinson
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Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 or evening, I attended a demo in NYC where Frederic Chiu played 4-5 pieces on a superb piano in the Yamaha showroom. I sat about 12 feet from him, on a line from the keyboard. The room was fairly lively.

The performance was recorded with 4 microphones. Two were no more than a foot or two apart, inserted into the piano case. The other two were about 3 feet apart, about 3 feet away and aimed at the first two from outside the case. Afterwards, we were treated to hearing the recording, made at 24/96, in the recording booth and to comparing it to MP3 (256kbps) tracks made at another time in another (much larger) venue by Mr. Chiu and derived from its commercial release.

The purpose, it seems, was to prove that the 24/96 was superior to the MP3 and, certainly in regard to clarity, impact and detail, the point was made. However, I found it more striking that neither bore any resemblance to spatial representation that I had heard only minutes before. I could hear all the notes/sounds but there was no impression that the piano was a physical entity in a real space. Somehow, the MP3 was a tiny bit better in that aspect.

At home the next day, I played the commercial CD (44.1khz) and, although it was well-balanced, it was lacking in the same ways as the playback in the sound booth. The accompanying DVD showed a similar arrangement for the first microphone pair was the same as above but any additional mics were more distant in what appeared to be a converted church in Nashville.

Nonetheless, the only times that sight matched sound was shots from over Mr. Chiu's shoulders or head where the left-to-right distribution of bass-to-treble was matched to the keyboard. One might say this recording gives you the performer's perspective and not the concert listener's perspective. This is all too common.

FWIW, the otherwise lovely recording is Frederic Chiu: Distant Voices (Piano Music by Claude Debussy and Gao Ping), Yamaha Entertainment Group of America YEG-011

 

RE: Just the other day.........................., posted on November 12, 2015 at 08:47:11
rbolaw
 Thank you Kal, for that information. I'm a big admirer of Mr. Chiu's playing, as I've said in other posts here, and I'll look into that CD.

To me, the problem you describe is not limited to piano recording. In recent years I've had at least three chances to hear the same musicians perform the same music, not featuring a piano, both live in a concert hall and in a commercial recording. (One featured a full symphony orchestra, another a string quartet, and a third a wind quintet.)

Though each had very different recorded sound qualities in many ways, all three exhibit the problem you discuss -- you could call it a lack of spatial realism or coherence -- to some degree. Oddly, this is one area where many of those 1950s mono LPs really excel, and some of the early stereo ones, too. I'm sure you look for it in the multi-channel recordings you write about.

 

RE: Stereo piano music, posted on November 12, 2015 at 09:00:54
newvinyl
 I've heard this problem on a number of recordings. The one I was recently listening to, which prompted this post, was "Billy Strayhorn: Lush Life". The first track is a solo piano with Bill Charlap.

This forum seems to be mostly about classical music. Sorry if I've posted inappropriately about jazz.

 

and binaural done at the pianist's position, posted on November 12, 2015 at 09:29:16
Bill Way
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 The Zenph/Sony recreation of the 1955 Gould recording of the Goldberg Variations, which is a stunningly good recording btw, also suffers from that.

For this, they played back the 1955 tape into digital files that captured pitch, harmonics, attack, decay, etc. in extreme detail. That digital file fed software that created instructions for the Yamaha Disklavier system. They "played" the piece on a nine-foot Yamaha Disklavier grand that was voided to sound like Gould's Steinway. Their goal was to get that piano to closely replicate Gould's original performance. They played it before an audience that included some who knew Gould, and reportedly many in the audience were in tears.

After that, they recorded that piano playing the piece in a studio, with binaural and stereo micing. The binaural mics were at the pianist's position, which somewhat exaggerates the lows-on-the-left, highs-on-the-right. Still, for anyone with headphones who loves the 1955 performance, this is a recording to have. The stereo version is quite good, but the binaural works best, despite the micing. (Both versions come with the piece from hdtracks.)

For close piano micing, I've gotten best results from a spaced pair of small-diaphram condensers about 18" apart, pointed down, about 4-6" above the strings and 5" from the dampers, though X-Y comes close and doesn't run the risk of phase cancelation.

I've only done micing for classical piano a couple times, and that was in a live room, not a concert hall or church. I got the best results with a pair of U87s tipped in near the the lid opening, an X-Y pair of KM84s over the strings which I'd mix in if it needed more of an "in your face" quality, and a pair of widely spaced vintage 414s about six feet away to bring in some of the room. I'd love to have the chance to practice with this more; some day I'll get to it, and maybe some day I'll get a pair of Schoeps mics to do it with.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Stereo piano music, posted on November 12, 2015 at 09:48:09
PAR
 Don't worry. There is nothing inappropriate about jazz. Keep it up!

NB: Yes, I now know what you mean. I have a few odd jazz recordings of piano like that. It goes alongside the thirty foot wide drum kits :-)

 

Those kinds of demos are very difficult, posted on November 12, 2015 at 11:31:06
Chris from Lafayette
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 And I know this from experience, having participated in a few of Brian Cheney's "live vs. recorded" demos of his VMPS speakers at THE Show in Las Vegas a few years ago. The problem is that you HAVE to record the performers very closely for these demos. Otherwise (if the microphones are further away to produce a more "natural" sound perspective), the microphones will pick up too much of the room or the hall, and when the recording is played back for comparison to the live performance, the recorded performance will have too much room sound in comparison - because you've got the room sound from the recording and then the room sound AGAIN from the playback in the same hall. IOW, the room sound becomes additive on playback - and you don't want that on a live vs. recorded comparison. And so, ironically, you have to record in a less natural manner in these situations.

Regarding Chiu, I have some of his recordings myself (the Schubert-Liszt transcriptions, and another disc of transcriptions) and I like them a lot. I'll be on the look out for the new Distant Voices recording you mention.

 

Granted but..........................., posted on November 12, 2015 at 12:12:43
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

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 the playback that night was not in the performance space but in a rather well-damped control room. Similarly, my experience with the disc playback was in my room which is well-treated and with my system using Dirac to minimize gross room contributions.

While the effects you mention are impossible to eliminate entirely, most of the concerns are with matters of perspective.

 

The Chiu is available on Tidal, Applie Music and Spotify, posted on November 12, 2015 at 13:42:47
srl1
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Location: Florida Panhandle
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 I have always been a Chiu fan. He played in Tallahassee many years ago (right near the end of his Prokofiev cycle for HM). I find his Prokofiev clear, passionate, and exciting.

 

Thanks - I've got Classicsonline, but I'm just about to jettison it, posted on November 12, 2015 at 14:12:25
Chris from Lafayette
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 Their app recently started breaking down (or not playing nicely with OSX - I don't know which). I'll probably give it a vacation and try again in a few months. No use paying the $15/month if it's not behaving. ;-)

 

RE: and binaural done at the pianist's position, posted on November 12, 2015 at 14:13:03
ahendler
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Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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 Of course what is missing on the Zenph recording is Goulds humming (just kidding) I much prefer his 1980 recording. Three mikes several feet out from the piano and several feet up. You can see the mike setup on the wonderful DVD of this recording. In our studio for rock the mikes 2 or 3 were stuck down into the sound holes. For classical recordings I used 3 U47 or U 67 setup like I described for the Gould recording. We also for rock removed the lid and covered the piano with a custom made cover to minimize leakage into other open mikes while recording
Alan

 

RE: Thanks - I've got Classicsonline, but I'm just about to jettison it, posted on November 12, 2015 at 14:17:16
ahendler
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Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I've got Classicsonline running off a MacBook Pro with Yosemite. Once in a great while it has problems but no more than once a month. They have gotten much better than when they first started. My favorite is Tidal. I run Ammaro for Tidal. Always works and sounds terrific.
Alan

 

RE: Thanks - I've got Classicsonline, but I'm just about to jettison it, posted on November 12, 2015 at 16:56:58
srl1
Audiophile

Posts: 1339
Location: Florida Panhandle
Joined: September 2, 2003
 Have you worked with their Customer Support on your problems? They are very good and responsive.

I've had a lot of trouble with their app off and on. When I upgraded my iPod Touch to 9 their app quit working. It took them a few weeks to fix it, and they still had a problem after they thought it was fixed. But they squashed that bug in a day or two.

At about the same time they upgraded their Android app, and it quit working, too, because of a bug in their login process. That took a few days, too.

What they need more than anything is a good set of beta testers. I worked in IT until my recent retirement, and I'm amazed how these problems they had made it into the production environment.

I like their service because it is gapless, it supports HD, and it has a lot of the fringe labels that Tidal doesn't have. So I cut them some slack.

 

RE: Thanks - I've got Classicsonline, but I'm just about to jettison it, posted on November 12, 2015 at 18:45:57
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Me too
Some problems occur with home wifi networks. You need an up to date high quality router if you are streaming over wifi. Also using my Lenova laptop I had hugh problems. When I switch to a MacBook Pro all problems ended
Alan

 

Thanks for the comment - The problem I have. . . , posted on November 12, 2015 at 19:20:20
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . is that the app will not start up - it just sits there and spins. It had been working very well for me for about 2-3 months, but the problem may have something to do with the fact that I'm now running El Capitan rather than Yosemite like you are. I tried removing the app and downloading a new copy - that procedure worked, but only for one session. After I logged out and quit yesterday, the app went back to spinning around on start-up when I tried to open it today. I could still play Classicsonline through a browser, but then the data rate slows way down compared to what I was getting with the separate app.

Anyway, I cancelled Classicsonline a few hours ago. I may try Tidal at some point, but I think all these outfits may be having teething difficulties at this time, with the frequency of operating system upgrades and other changes. It's a brave new world! ;-)

 

Thanks - see my comment to Alan below, posted on November 12, 2015 at 19:30:00
Chris from Lafayette
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 I hear you about bugs in the code. I just retired from my IT job too (the better to devote my semi-retirement to music!), and it's sometimes a wonder that all this stuff comes out right (even in the financial industry where I worked). It's partially because of my music obligations that I feel that I don't always have time to work with customer support, and it's just easier right now for me to "take a vacation" from Classicsonline and check back with them in a few months.

 

RE: Thanks for the comment - The problem I have. . . , posted on November 12, 2015 at 20:48:29
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Tidal has very few problems. I am using a program called Amarra for Tidal. It bypasses everything your computer might do that effects music streaming. Again I am running on a MacBook Pro. Do not know how the pc version works. Tidal is really good but to get 16/44 you must open it in Chrome. There is tons of classical on tidal plus almost any other kinds of music. It is currently my major source of music
Alan

 

Forgot to mention Qobuz - which may not be long for this world, posted on November 13, 2015 at 00:25:05
Chris from Lafayette
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 I see they're in receivership and need a white knight buyer BY MONDAY. I'd say, pretty unlikely.

 

Ivan is suicidal!, posted on November 13, 2015 at 07:21:58
Ivan303
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 A ton of stuff is on QOBUZ that never shows up on TIDAL or other services.

Just might have to end it all if they go under. :-(


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Yeah, it's too bad (if they go under AND if you end it all as a result! - please don't!) [nt] ;-), posted on November 13, 2015 at 09:13:34
Chris from Lafayette
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Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: Stereo piano music . . . I agree absolutely, and . . ., posted on November 14, 2015 at 22:20:13
goldenthal
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Posts: 1001
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 28, 2003
 when I first heard such engineering decades ago, I rolled on the floor laughing and invited my friends in to hear.


Jeremy

 

RE: Stereo piano music . . . I agree absolutely, and . . . P.S. --, posted on November 14, 2015 at 22:23:12
goldenthal
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 28, 2003
 I think that your system, your ears, and your instincts are all just fine!


Jeremy

 

Just signed up for the 28 day free trial..., posted on November 15, 2015 at 08:34:05
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 We'll see how it works.

Liking the advanced search function.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Unlike QOBUZ at least ClassicsOnlineHD..., posted on November 15, 2015 at 14:31:00
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

seems to be paying their bills to CHANDOS.

A lot of my favorites on QOBUZ, especially those that are on the Chandos label, no longer play.

In fact they haven't for quite some time.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Whew! I'm glad you're still among us! [nt] ;-), posted on November 15, 2015 at 14:39:15
Chris from Lafayette
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Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

As is QOBUZ..., posted on November 15, 2015 at 15:33:57
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 At least for the moment.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

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