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Oistrakh/Szell/Cleveland Brahms Violin Concerto, 1970 EMI Vinyl....

68.104.246.173
Posted on September 25, 2015 at 18:09:22
Todd Krieger
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 The copyright date is printed on the label.

With the turntable calibrated to 33 1/3 RPM, the pitch is noticeably sharper than the 2003 CD remaster.....

I don't know if what I got was maybe a later release.... It's EMI, with "His Master's Voice" on the label. And the year "1970". But I can confirm the pitch issue John Marks brought up is for real.

 

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Interesting....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 18:32:10
Todd Krieger
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Location: SW United States
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 My suspicion of the pitch on the CD being fixed in software turns out to be false. The CD is definitely slower than the vinyl, from a time perspective.

Now the interesting part..... The pitch of the vinyl doesn't stay consistent throughout the A side. It begins noticeably sharp, gradually decreases to being indistinguishable from the CD pitch-wise about the 7 to 9 minute mark, but then gradually increases again, it's noticeably sharp again at the cadenza......

I played quick "snippets" on the LP, to be sure it wasn't my turntable doing this.

The problem seems to be a "master tape drift" issue. What gets me is how the speed was made consistent when the CD was remastered. Unless the problem was a speed variance between when the master was played while the vinyl was being cut. (The bad part is the vinyl playback cannot be fixed by adjusting the pitch control. It would then be "flat" in pitch in the middle of the opening movement.)

I don't ever recall another recording having a problem like this. Although I never really paid much attention.

From a sonic standpoint, I prefer the vinyl, by a good margin. It's actually a good recording, for a Szell/Cleveland release.

 

Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 18:54:54
Todd Krieger
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 I spot played Side 2..... Apparently, the copy I got was played to death on Side 2, for some inexplicable reason. (Side 1 looked pristine by comparison.)

Side 2 of the vinyl had a similar problem..... The 2nd movement was noticeably sharp throughout the movement (although it seemed closer to correct pitch toward the end). The third movement also started out sharp, gradually decreased in pitch again, the pitch was very close to correct at the very end.

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 19:18:05
David Smith
 Can you give stamper info and timing for the first movement?

Dave

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 19:49:52
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
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 Side 1 says "2YEA 3809-5". There is also a "1" with a "3" underneath.

Side 2 says "2YEA 3810-6". There is also a "2" with a "6" underneath.

I'm not familiar with stamper codes at all, by the way.

I did not see any times listed on the vinyl copy. I'd have to put a watch on it. (I'd only do Side 1, Side 2 of my copy is trashed.) If I had to guess, based on what I heard initially with the opening movement, I estimate the CD being roughly 8 to 10 seconds slower than the vinyl.

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 20:00:17
David Smith
 Thanks Todd, if you get a chance to check out the timing that would be great too.

Dave

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 20:08:23
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
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 I edited the post. My vinyl copy had no time info, I started the recordings together, the CD finished roughly 8 to 10 seconds behind the vinyl. The CD had 22:35 as its time for the opening movement. I don't know how much of it was "dead time", I'd say the vinyl time was between 22:20 and 22:25.

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 20:17:36
David Smith
 Ok, the exact time from first note to the start of the last chord in the first movement would make for apples-to-apples in relation to the discussion below. It would be interesting to know whether it's the same as the 22:06 timing of the SACD or somewhere in between that and the 22:20 timing of the 03 EMI CD and early Angel LP.

Dave

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 20:34:26
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
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 The CD starts just past 3 seconds, finishes at "22:31"..... So the actual play time is 22:28. If I had a quartz-locked direct drive turntable, I'd clock the vinyl, but my turntables are belt driven, the result might not be accurate. (I can get it very close to 33 1/3, but not exactly 33 1/3.)

 

RE: Interesting....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 22:25:34
ahendler
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 Maybe the master tape was stretch in places
By the way back in the 60's in the studio we had a device that could raise or lower pitch without changing the total time. It used a rotating tape head that sampled the tape and by changing the speed of the rotation pitch could be altered
Alan

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 25, 2015 at 22:27:57
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I clocked the vinyl, Side 1, from the start of the opening note to the end of the closing chord. It clocked at 22.07. (Which is consistent with the SACD speed.) I verified the strobe speed both before and after..... I enjoyed Oistrakh's playing, but the music kept gnawing inside my head that the playback speed was too fast.

Once again, this was the 1970 EMI British pressing.... Maybe the American Angel pressing is OK.

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 26, 2015 at 05:29:35
David Smith
 Thanks Todd. Yes the Angel LP is 22:20. I believe the 1970 year is the publishing date for the sound recording and not an indication of the year of the pressing, FWIW.

Dave

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 26, 2015 at 21:44:03
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I have an Angel copy coming..... I was disappointed how mangled Side 2 was on my EMI copy, it was unplayable. (Side 1 looked and sounded like it wasn't played at all. I guess maybe a violinist played portions of Side 2 over and over again, preparing for a performance.)

The Angel copy does have times stated for the three movements, which happens to be between the SACD/EMI LP time and the CD time, which in itself seems kind of odd.......

 

RE: Interesting....., posted on September 26, 2015 at 22:14:49
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Maybe the master tape was stretch in places"

I discounted this, only because the EMI CD remaster shows no sign of it. It would be difficult to get the speed "back to normal" if this occurred.

 

RE: Interesting....., posted on September 26, 2015 at 23:00:21
ahendler
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Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I would think it could be done with digital technology but you may be right
Alan

 

RE: Side 2....., posted on September 26, 2015 at 23:04:06
David Smith
 "The Angel copy does have times stated for the three movements, which happens to be between the SACD/EMI LP time and the CD time, which in itself seems kind of odd......."

I don't think CD and LP track timings are comparable that way, LP timings will not include any dead time while CD timings will. My LP says 22;24 on the jacket, the CD says 22:35, but they are identical at 22:20 from the first note to the start of the last chord.

Do keep in mind that John said his later Angel LP was fast.

Dave

 

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