LA Phil best paid!

Whoah! $308,000 base for the principal bassoon?, posted on July 21, 2015 at 18:58:12
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26432 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	And that's not even including overtime or "extra services" - it's feast or famine if you're a musician. Actually, I think I'd heard about the LA Phil players being the highest paid in other years too. No question, they've got it good! ;-)

Whoa is right. But then..., posted on July 21, 2015 at 19:44:28

hesson11
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This prompted me to do some searching. The latest figures I found for the base salary of musicians in our local orchestra here in Jacksonville (a very fine regional orchestra) is just under $40,000 per year (37-week season vs. 52 weeks for the LA Phil).

Another interesting note: The Jacksonville musicians' website listed the average cost of a members instruments as $41,000. I'll never complain about the cost of my guitars again!
-Bob

Average instrument cost is $41k???, posted on July 21, 2015 at 20:01:53
Mike K Audiophile Posts: 13973 Location: 97701 Joined: September 23, 1999	I find that extremely hard to believe. How does a trumpet cost $41k? Granted, that's an average figure, but still ... Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

Base Pay is around $150,000, Principals and Concert Master Negotiate., posted on July 21, 2015 at 20:12:47
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	CM is certainly highest paid. MTT makes couple of Million at least. Considering how much they work, have to play ANYTHING at any time, lots of pressure, seems fine for the Symphonic Industry. SFS, Chicago, NYP all competitive.

That is one of the many reasons they have gone from being a third rate orchestra to one of the best, posted on July 21, 2015 at 20:28:14
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9933 Joined: January 8, 2002	But there are other reasons too. It's great time to be in L.A. if you love classical music

RE: Whoa is right. But then..., posted on July 21, 2015 at 20:40:52

unclestu
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U attended an audition by the LF company for their double reeds. The principle bassoonist exclaimed how cheap they were : only 25K Euro! I was shocked and asked now much a Heckel costs. His reply was 50K Euro..... and this was back ten years ago...

Try pricing a Monet trumpet, any of a number of custom flutes, particularly if you want them made of gold instead of silver.....
Right now there are number of "boutique" makers custom making instruments and with prices to suit.

RE: Whoah! $308,000 base for the principal bassoon?, posted on July 21, 2015 at 21:25:13
docw Audiophile Posts: 8115 Location: So. California Joined: July 23, 2004 Contributor Since: November 29, 2004	We heard Chalifour play the Beethoven--controlled, flawless but a bit lifeless. Beethoven Egmont and Pastoral were very well done but again had a bit of drag. Bassoon and associate concertmaster Wang played the winter concertos at CYMO the last two yrs.

A new hall and 'The Dude' doesn't heart either..., posted on July 21, 2015 at 21:42:43
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	although some are beginning to claim the 'new' may be wearing thin on said 'Dude'. Me? I'd just like to see the new hall at least once before I go. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

The story was that the LA locals always had a pool of talent however, posted on July 22, 2015 at 00:06:50
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26432 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	So many jobs in the Hollywood film industry (I'm talking 40's, 50's, 60's). But I agree they're better than ever these days.

RE: The story was that the LA locals always had a pool of talent however, posted on July 22, 2015 at 02:25:48
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9933 Joined: January 8, 2002	They hit rock bottom in the 80s. I remember it well. Crap orchestra in an even crappier hall.

RE: A new hall and 'The Dude' doesn't heart either..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 02:29:05

Analog Scott
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It's an extraordinary hall to say the least and had a lot to do with the transformation of the orchestra.

I give more credit to Salonen than anyone or anything. He really changed everything including the culture of mediocrity that hung over the L.A. Phil when he first got there. Rumor has it that he stepped on a lot of toes in the process. I say good for him. Toes obviously needed smashing back then.

Well, there are what, 4 trumpets? Versus 24 violins, 8 violas, 8 celli, 8 basses..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 07:05:46

John Marks
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Or whatever the actual counts are in a given orchestra.

One assumes that the Concertmaster plays a fine Cremonese instrument with a market value over $1 million, at least. Most of the violinists will have Italian instruments over $100,000. If there is an outlier it might be someone who paid $50,000 for a Curtin & Alf modern violin some time ago--but that instrument is worth more today.

A high-quality violin for an advanced student is usually over $10,000.

Harps are not cheap. Neither are bass tubas.

So, the numerical superiority of the string players skews the average, IMHO.

JM

Could be...., posted on July 22, 2015 at 07:17:06

Ivan303
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Heard/saw him conduct here (SFS) recently and he'd be hard for me to like on a regular basis.

Even MTT can be a bit tiring at times. But the orchestra has been in fine form these last few years.

But at the end of the day, it's all about money. If you've got the financial support and that support isn't coming from a bunch of loonies, there's hope.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: The story was that the LA locals always had a pool of talent however, posted on July 22, 2015 at 07:22:43
srl1 Audiophile Posts: 1339 Location: Florida Panhandle Joined: September 2, 2003	So was the "rock bottom" under Giulini or Previn (both there in the 80s)?

Yeah, but at least you only need one pricey violin..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 08:12:10
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	How many trumpets does a symphony musician need? B flat? E flat/D? C? B flat Piccolo trumpet? Plus a Cornet? Or two? First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

A good bow could cost more than a trumpet. nt, posted on July 22, 2015 at 08:12:29
briggs Audiophile Posts: 1674 Location: Connecticut Joined: April 16, 2002	nt

RE: Well, there are what, 4 trumpets? Versus 24 violins, 8 violas, 8 celli, 8 basses..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 08:16:40

rbolaw

Traditionally the bassoon was the most expensive wind instrument, and they still ain't cheap. But now professional caliber flutes are more often made of solid gold and/or platinum rather than merely silver (or wood), that can push their price from $13,000 or $14,000 (at the moment) to well above $30,000. The clarinet remains a bargain at around $12,000 or $13,000.

And wind players likely own at least two top quality instruments.

The New Hall is over 10 years old..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 08:35:43
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	It is worth seeing, very different.

RE: Average instrument cost is $41k???, posted on July 22, 2015 at 08:49:45
jec01 Audiophile Posts: 1462 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Joined: September 22, 2004	In reaching that average number, I wonder how they factored in the percussionists. Percussion instruments are, AFAIK, owned by the orchestra, not the musicians. You can buy a lot of sticks and mallets for $41k. Happy listening, Jim "The passage of my life is measured out in shirts." - Brian Eno

I remember reading a letter in the Gramophone about Giulini and the LAPO, posted on July 22, 2015 at 10:39:40

Chris from Lafayette
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The writer seemed to be having a crisis of confidence at that time, now that high-quality conductors "such as Giulini" were "choosing to record with the LA Philharmonic" (I think that was his phrase) rather than with British or European orchestras, and concluded that standards must be falling in London!

The one time I saw Giulini and the LA Phil live (on tour in San Jose - Schubert Unfinished and Beethoven Eroica), they were fabulous! I thought the Eroica was better than their highly regarded (albeit singularly slow-mo and not at all well recorded!) DG recording from that time. OTOH, I remember some of those Previn/LAPO/Telarc recordings from just a few years later put me to sleep - and how can Alexander Nevsky put you to sleep!? ;-)

RE: Yeah, but at least you only need one pricey violin..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 11:13:00
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	Hmmmm....most players I know have multiple instruments, just in case one breaks or an accident occurs. I know of bassoon players with up to eight (!) instruments, three of which were the highest caliber. AS for violin bows, I've seen prices in the $100K range...

True., posted on July 22, 2015 at 11:43:46

rbolaw

Many top violinists, orchestral or otherwise, will use a good quality modern replica that can cost under $10,000 for outdoor concerts and travel or whenever they don't want to risk using their most expensive violin. And many top violinists are also turning to modern instruments from today's top makers even for their primary instruments.

Flutist Jean-Pierre Rampal famously played the only all solid gold flute ever made by the legendary French flutemaker Louis Lot (nearly all modern professional flutes are close copies of Lot's final model, with some slight changes in recent years). But midway through his career he put that flute in a bank vault and started using a modern copy.

RE: Average instrument cost is $41k???, posted on July 22, 2015 at 12:51:07
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	Maybe but I know of percussionists who own even their own set of tymps....not to mention xylophones, an assortment (large) of drums and miscellaneous instruments....

Makes sense, posted on July 22, 2015 at 13:10:21
jec01 Audiophile Posts: 1462 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Joined: September 22, 2004	For practice and for giving private lessons. My understanding is that a mid-grade set of 4 copper bowl tympani costs around $15k new. Happy listening, Jim "The passage of my life is measured out in shirts." - Brian Eno

Zubin and then Concertmaster David Frisina spent several weeks..., posted on July 22, 2015 at 13:50:55

bruckner9
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over in Europe in the late 60's, using a lot of the money raised during his first few years here, to buy 'all italian' violins. most of the stringed instruments used in the Phil are owned by the Orchestra...not by the individual players.

and keep in mind...with regard to musicians income here...most of the Phil members get a TON of 'side jobs' to supplement their pockets. TONS of tv commercials, movie and tv soundtracks, vocal recording sessions, et al, garner them another extremely lucrative payout. i'm friends with the assistant personnel manager of the Phil, the principal bassist, and both trumpeters in the L.A. Chamber Orchestra, and have heard a bazillion stories of hiring practices, instrument purchases, scheduling situations, et al. needless to say, there's a LOT more going on with regard to running an orchestra than a person might think. in some instances, members of the Phil make up to 4-5 times more than their Phil salary with session work. imagine, practicing your own instrument for a few hours in the morning...then heading to disney hall for a Phil rehearsal, then off to a recording studio (or two) for freelance work filling the afternoon, then performing that night's Phil subscription concert, then off again to another studio for more freelance session work till well past midnight, etc, etc. not hard to see how that can add up to some serious income, well above their Phil 'salary'.

RE: The story was that the LA locals always had a pool of talent however, posted on July 22, 2015 at 15:11:31
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9933 Joined: January 8, 2002	Previn

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 22, 2015 at 15:38:49

learsfool
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Hi all - a couple of comments on some things mentioned in this thread. First, believe it or not, the LA Phil, despite being the highest paying symphony orchestra in the country, still often loses players to the recording industry, as the very top studio recording musicians in LA make FAR more than $150,000 a year. Just to give you an idea, in 1990, the top studio horn player, Jim Thatcher, told a group of students I was part of that he was going to make $300,000 that year, and that figure is undoubtedly much higher now, as that was 25 years ago, perhaps even to the day, now that I think about it. Even the concertmaster of the LA Phil may not have been making $300,000 25 years ago. Certainly no wind principal anywhere in the country was getting anywhere near that figure back then. Breaking into the best paying recording work in LA is the absolute most money a symphonic player can make anywhere in the world. But there are only about 300 musicians total that we are talking about that make that kind of money. They are some of the very best musicians on the planet, especially with regards to sight-reading, as you might imagine. Unless they are having to record something truly difficult, they generally only read something once, twice at most before the red light goes on....

Second, on the average price of the instruments. The trumpet is indeed probably the least expensive wind instrument in the orchestra; however each trumpet player will own at least four or five different instruments at a minimum. Also, the price of brass instruments in general has jumped dramatically in the last 10 to 15 years. When I bought my world class horn in 1997, I paid a little under $7000 for it (this is for a new one). At the time, this was the most expensive of it's type in the world. Now, however, the most expensive horns of the same type cost $15,000. Now I am a rarity in that I only own one instrument - most players have at least two.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 22, 2015 at 17:33:14

rbolaw

Very true. Jim Walker, former LA Phil principal flutist and one of the very best players in the world, left the orchestra early on, mainly to do studio work. Another outstanding player, Paul Fried, played 2nd flute in the Boston Symphony and also left for LA to do studio work when he was very young and has been there ever since. Both nice guys.

In the golden age the movie industry employed fulltime orchestras and they were at least the equal of the LA Phil. The famous Hollywood String Quartet was composed of members of those orchestras.

Edit: We should also mention Louis Kaufman. A great violinist who played with Casals, Heifetz, etc., he could have had a major concert career but chose a very well-paid, comfortable existence as the Hollywood studio's leading violinist. Probably the most recorded violinist of all time, you've heard his playing if you've seen Gone With The Wind, Psycho, and a whole lot of movies in between.

Didn't Paul Fried also sub/play with the LAPO while he was doing studio work? [nt], posted on July 22, 2015 at 18:13:35
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26432 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Didn't Paul Fried also sub/play with the LAPO while he was doing studio work? [nt], posted on July 22, 2015 at 19:02:09

rbolaw

He may have subbed with the LA Phil, especially in earlier years, but he never took a full time position with that orchestra. He left the assistant principal position in Boston (apparently Ozawa was never very supportive of him) to be co-principal in Pittsburgh 1982-85, and has been in LA ever since. He's had a very busy career in the movies, and as learsfool discusses, has no doubt made much more money than he would have in the LA Phil full time.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 22, 2015 at 22:24:58

docw
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Some of you read the review of this past Thu Beethoven concert. And some of you said LA Phil was a great band. But it's not a great orchestra.
Not as good as Cleveland in the late 80s with Dohnanyi (personal experience.
It improving under the Dude.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 22, 2015 at 22:57:43
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	I met trumpeter Jerry Hey in university, His goal was always to be a studio musician. Fewer hours, great pay, much less stress. After his gig with Seawind, that's exactly what he did rising to being first call in LA. Pulled in $100K easily and could have a family, working basically only days....

Well. . . since your link didn't work (for me anyway). . . , posted on July 23, 2015 at 00:08:00
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26432 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	. . . perhaps you would like to elaborate on your assertion? (Plenty of critics seem to consider LA a great orchestra these days.) Don't get me wrong, I like Cleveland too, but, for me, Cleveland never has had, for instance, the tonal allure of some other great orchestras - and I have plenty of Dohnanyi/Cleveland recordings.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 23, 2015 at 09:26:04

ahendler
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When I worked at Universal Recording studio in Chicago during the 60's and 70' we did a ton of national tv commercials. We used the same group of studio musicians all the time because they were talented and fast. Bonnie Herman was the lead singer on many national commercials and for quite a few years with recording fees and residuals was making one million dollars a year. Many of the others were making $250,000 to $500,000. Unfortunately the engineers were never given residuals although our union fought to get them
Alan

RE: Well. . . since your link didn't work (for me anyway). . . , posted on July 23, 2015 at 13:20:11

docw
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Sorry, deleted my response twice by mistake. No real link.

LA Phil may be very good, but sometimes I wish for better. Dudamel is good and can motivate an orchestra. When I attended live concerts of Cleveland under Dohnanyi, we had a sense of unity, power without straining and beauty of intonation (at Severance in the later 80's). CD's are fine, but often don't capture all that.

Again, we (CYMO) had a chance to sit under Gustavo and rehearse recently! Engaging and inspirational leader. And we've had the likes of Bing Wang, Whitney Crockett, Carrie Dennis and V Gupta, Andrew Bain and James Miller come and play the solo for our winter concerts!

Thinking of you, spending so much time for young people, it's great.

The one time I heard the Cleveland Orchestra live. . . , posted on July 23, 2015 at 17:40:08
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26432 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	. . . I was very struck by how pure their intonation was, just as you suggest. This may have been during the Dohnanyi years, but it was actually Eschenbach whom I heard conducting them.

RE: The one time I heard the Cleveland Orchestra live. . . , posted on July 23, 2015 at 18:20:26
docw Audiophile Posts: 8115 Location: So. California Joined: July 23, 2004 Contributor Since: November 29, 2004	Christoph v D V Ashkenazy Jahja Ling Michael Stern Robert Page choral plus That's who I heard as a conducting staff Even Franz Welser Moest has intonation but different ode of clean

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 23, 2015 at 18:58:58

Todd Krieger
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I personally think the LAPO hit its virtuosic peak when Carlo Maria Giulini was music director..... It occasionally put out world class performances during that time, often with Schumann, Beethoven, and modern Russian works..... (Of the current American orchestras, I'd put only Muti/Chicago above Giulini/LAPO.) But it was downhill after Giulini left.

I think Gustavo Dudamel's drawing power and Los Angeles as a major media hub are mainly responsible for the high pay. I don't see Dudamel as an "orchestra builder", but give it a few more years. The few recent performances I've seen the LAPO in video broadcast (regardless of conductor) haven't inspired me that much. (I've been impressed with Dudamel conducting other orchestras, most notably Berlin.) The Disney Hall audiences have been Gawd-awful in how they applaud between movements. The Dudamel Beethoven Ninth on YouTube is merely an example. I've seen this in other concerts. It seems like the rule there, rather than the exception.

I think the LAPO's biggest issue, as what others have mentioned, has been personnel turnover..... It's hard for any orchestra to get a cohesiveness and "sound" with players constantly bolting elsewhere.

RE: Well. . . since your link didn't work (for me anyway). . . , posted on July 23, 2015 at 19:17:54

Todd Krieger
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"Don't get me wrong, I like Cleveland too, but, for me, Cleveland never has had, for instance, the tonal allure of some other great orchestras - and I have plenty of Dohnanyi/Cleveland recordings."

I think until recently, Cleveland has been victimized by some awful recordings. Save for the Telarc/Soundstream recordings late in Lorin Maazel's tenure. The Szell Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra" was one of only few recordings of the Cleveland Orchestra that I thought was at least decent. Yet Szell totally butchered (literally) the ending of the piece. The best of the rest was maybe the Lorin Maazel recording Rimsky Korsakov's "Scheherazade" (link). But you still need tubes to fully appreciate the recording. (I think this is the best "Scheherazade" to make recording.)

I only say this because in my opinion, the Cleveland Orchestra between 1965 and 1985 had the greatest sound (or "tone") I've ever experienced in a symphony orchestra. A sound that stood out where I'd be able to pick this orchestra out from a bunch of performances. (I can maybe do this with Solti/Chicago too, due to the overpowering brass.) A sound that can even be listened through bad recordings.

The "Cleveland Sound" is present in spades with the "Scheherazade" recording.... Although a lot is lost relative to the vinyl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwvP7Zb35es

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 23, 2015 at 19:22:09
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9933 Joined: January 8, 2002	No, it is the exception. But when it happens it is usually a bit annoying.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 23, 2015 at 19:56:13
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	I've noticed this with trumpets.... Half the major orchestras will use "rotary" instruments form certain composers (Beethoven, Bruckner), use B-flat instruments, or C instruments..... And cornets for Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique"...... (Although I've never seen the LAPO use rotary trumpets. Even the Dudamel B-9, the players were using standard piston instruments.)

Most own their own., posted on July 24, 2015 at 05:36:06

D Harvey
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Most, if not all of the instruments in a professional percussion section are owned by the players themselves. An infinite array of things could be brought in, and sometimes players even build their own (try to buy a set of the massive chimes called for in Symphonie Fantastique, for example). A top-quality set of timps with calf heads (no serious pro uses plastic) will run you in the neighborhood of $50,000. The hunt for more instruments never ends for a percussionist.

Top quality string instruments are usually 100 years old or more. Prices routinely go into six figures. The wind players probably have it the easiest. They generally need only own a handful of horns, the best of which are generally modern instruments. Not cheap, but not the budget blasting world of strings and percussion, either.

dh

RE: A new hall and 'The Dude' doesn't heart either..., posted on July 26, 2015 at 04:50:24

eppis1
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I was sorry to see Salonen exit. And I've been dubious about Dudamel being more about personality than substance. The hall is fairly easy to access, sounds great (to me), and they try hard to put on a classy show. The pre-show lectures are informative, the restaurants nearby are good. Actually the Dorothy Chandler has a better atmosphere, but the sounds is not so good. My favorite nights there start with a dinner at the Pacific Dining Car, then get to see a guest conductor put on an old war horse.

RE: LA Phil best paid!, posted on July 26, 2015 at 08:34:47
learsfool Audiophile Posts: 1001 Joined: August 4, 2008	Hi Todd - yes, most major orchestras own a set of rotary trumpets. However, these are usually purchased by the orchestra itself - so I wasn't even counting the rotaries!

Music Lane

LA Phil best paid!

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