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Simone Young/Hamburg Bruckner Recordings

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Posted on July 10, 2015 at 12:44:56
merlinus
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Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 I am wondering about these, having read a fair number of mixed reviews. She uses so-called original versions of the symphonies, before they were edited by Bruckner and others.

The sonics seem superb, however, and they are available as SACDs.

 

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She's a woman - and not a babe - so don't expect much on this distorted narrow forum, posted on July 10, 2015 at 14:20:08
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 And she's an Australian.

Her ouvre - the big romantic works - isn't one I deeply care about. Yet, when I hear her conducting on ABC Classic FM I like it. People here whose opinions I trust - in music I do care about - and also know this music well - hold Simone in very high regard.

Confirmation of that is that Germans who should and do deeply care about her field, also love her work.

The Germans are very conservative about working mums and she's survived that.

LBNL Some people thinks she's among the top ten conductors.


Some reviews all from Australia. One you can click on.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/arts/simone-young-is-taking-australias-best-young-musicians-on-a-thrilling-journey/story-fni0fcgk-1227013989104

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/review/simone-youngs-house-work-is-never-done/story-fn9n8gph-1226446093341

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/313166,live-review-simone-young-the-hamburg-philharmonic.aspx


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

I've heard 2 of them, posted on July 10, 2015 at 16:48:49
Amphissa
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Posts: 2717
Location: Zardoz
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 First, let's just be clear. There are many, many, many recordings of Bruckner's symphonies. For those who listen to a lot of Bruckner, just as for those who listen to a lot of Mahler or Brahms or Beethoven, they develop preferences for what they personally respond to. So some people may love certain recordings and others dislike them, just because of how well it fits their preferences.

Second, there are very few, maybe zero, Bruckner cycles that are great beginning to end. Conductors (and orchestras) are often better at some symphonies than other symphonies.

I have heard three of these SACD releases -- symphonies 7, 8 and 9. But actually, I have heard her conducting most of the Bruckner symphonies from live broadcast recordings with different orchestras. I'm actually not a great fan of Bruckner's early symphonies and only bother to buy the last three of his works. So I can't comment on the SACDs of the earlier symphonies.

Personally, I like her approach to Bruckner. I do not really care about version issues with the late symphonies. I've heard broadcast recordings of her conducting the 7th, my personal favorite of the Bruckner symphonies, with the Sydney Symphony and with the Bruckner Orchestra (Linz), and the 8th with the City of Birmingham Symphony.

I liked the broadcast recordings well enough to invest in the SACD recordings of these 3 symphonies. Do they blow everything else off the shelf? No. The Hamburgers are not going to compete for greatest orchestra in the world. And here is where those "preferences" come in. If what you want is the monstrous orchestral forces with thousands of musicians massed together to burst your eardrums, this is not the set of recordings for you. But these recordings are big enough, and the SACD audio is good enough, to offer a very good listening experience. So I can recommend them as an addition to a collection that includes other very good performances.

Beyond that, I guess the questions are -- how many Bruckner recordings do you already own? Are you looking for one definitive set that will make it unnecessary to buy any other recordings? Or are you really into Bruckner, looking for some different insights? Or are you looking for spectacular audio to show off your system?

Try her 7th. See how you like it before investing in others in the series.


"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

RE: I've heard 2 of them, posted on July 10, 2015 at 17:31:18
merlinus
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Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Thanks very much for your cogent responses, Tim and Amphissa -- much appreciated!

I am very much "into" Bruckner, have a number of different interpretations of his symphonies, and enjoy most of them. The only "complete" sets I have are Jochum/DG and EMI, and I have other recordings of his of 5, 7, 8 (four of them!), and 9.

I have Celibidache/EMI 3-9, and SACDs of 4, 6, 7, and 8. Also Wand/BPO 4, 8, and 9 on SACD and his Lubecks, and some of Tennstedt, Furtwangler, Boulez, and Blomstedt.

So I am not looking to get a "definitive" set by any means!

I certainly enjoy excellent performances and SQ, and will look into Young's 7 for starters. 8 and 9 are probably my favorites, but I listen to all of them from time-to-time.

 

Young/HPO Bruckner 7, posted on July 10, 2015 at 19:06:21
merlinus
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Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Found this at naxos music library, and just listened to the first movement. Wonderful performance with excellent sound.

 

RE: "And she's an Australian. ", posted on July 11, 2015 at 08:13:12
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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 Well, that sums it up! ;-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

"Australian" "Babe" - Darn those non-musical factors! [nt] ;-), posted on July 11, 2015 at 11:36:39
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26483
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Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: Simone Young Bruckner, posted on July 11, 2015 at 18:39:46
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Back to Simone Young/HPO. I just listened to the 8th on naxos. What a terrific performance, and again excellent SQ with headphones and PC audio.

I could discern differences between this edition and the others I have heard, but in no way did they lessen the impact.

Marvellous, in all respects!

 

This one?, posted on July 11, 2015 at 19:22:43
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

????





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I'm surprised there are as many recordings of that 1887 version as there are, posted on July 11, 2015 at 19:54:02
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 I used to have the Inbal/Frankfurt RSO performance of it on Teldec. I think Bruckner was right to give the work another go with the 1890 edition. That loud first-movement ending in the '87 version is not nearly as effective (or as moving!) as the one in the '90 version (at least IMHO). I have not yet heard Mrs. Young's recording (although I'm interested in it, not least because of its hi-rez multi-channel incarnation), so maybe she'll convince me of the worth of this '87 "Urfassung"! ;-)

 

I'm enjoying it on TIDAL at the moment.., posted on July 11, 2015 at 21:05:21
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Got it playing on the main system via AirPlay.

Finally, with help from a new Airport Express which is hard-wired via Ethernet cable to the Marantz NA-7004(which has no WiFi).

Still have no Ethernet running up to the listening room so the Airport Express may end up being the final solution.

So far not dropouts or gapless hassles. Yet. And the 'smart TV' likes the better WiFi signal that the AirPort Express provides so there is that.

Good recordings like this one certainly sound better than bad ones so the system must be working.

It's also on Spotify, if you can stand MP3.

I'd say it's worth a listen. Amazon has it for about $20 plus media mail shipping.





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: This one?, posted on July 11, 2015 at 21:31:11
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Yes, that's the one. I listened to a streaming version at Naxos Music Library.

 

RE: I'm surprised there are as many recordings of that 1887 version as there are, posted on July 11, 2015 at 22:00:13
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 I too have misgivings about the ending of the first movement, but in some ways it presages the finale.

Also, the ending of the symphony is a bit more dramatic in the revised version, but this one is quite excellent.

 

RE: I'm enjoying it on TIDAL at the moment.., posted on July 12, 2015 at 14:08:26
ahendler
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Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Another source for streaming of these recordings is Classicsonline.com.
I listened to #8 last night and thought it was well done. The recording is good and I thought the orchestra played very well. I will listen to #7 later today
Alan

 

RE: This one?, posted on July 12, 2015 at 14:12:11
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 When you say Naxos streaming library are you talking about Classicsonline?
I really like Classicsonline because they stream all the way up to 24/192 with a lot of 24/96. Also they have a lot of other labels besides Naxos. If you love Classical music this Naxos streamer and Tidal give you all you would ever want in excellent sonics
Alan

 

RE: I'm enjoying it on TIDAL at the moment.., posted on July 12, 2015 at 14:20:40
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Look forward to hearing about your experience with #7. I was very taken by it, except there seemed to be some flagging of the energy near the end.

Of course, that may be entirely me! Or perhaps the original version used in the recording.

 

RE: This one?, posted on July 12, 2015 at 14:26:50
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Naxos Music Library (http://naxosmusiclibrary.com/home.asp). Their CD quality is good enough for my setup -- Sony MDR-V6 headphones (about 2 decades old) and PC audio.

If I could, or wanted, to stream it to my system that would be a different piece of pie.

Also, the Toronto Symphony website makes the price of access well worth it -- zero dollars.

 

RE: I've heard 2 of them, posted on July 12, 2015 at 15:41:27
bruckner9
Audiophile

Posts: 1184
Location: So Cal
Joined: August 14, 2003
 "Beyond that, I guess the questions are -- how many Bruckner recordings do you already own?"

Close to 600 (spread amongst reel-to-reel tape, vinyl, cassette, and live broadcast airchecks).

"Are you looking for one definitive set that will make it unnecessary to buy any other recordings?"

Impossible to do. Doesn't exist.

"Or are you really into Bruckner, looking for some different insights?"

Sure. Certainly NOT going "stop" myself from learning of, listening to, or enjoying yet another approach. To do so would be utterly stupid.

"Or are you looking for spectacular audio to show off your system?"

No. Not the right kind of music to do so.

 

RE: I'm enjoying it on TIDAL at the moment.., posted on July 12, 2015 at 16:21:37
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Just listened to #7. I am not an expert on Bruckner symphonies but it seems to me that the last movement as performed here is really anti climatic to the rest of the symphony. It does seem to just peter out with no real climax. It could be the version. This may have been changed in Bruckners later versions. I will have to check this out. Otherwise I really think this is an excellent performance and sonics are good
Alan

 

"It could be the version", posted on July 12, 2015 at 18:47:14
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26483
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Joined: February 17, 2004
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 So now might be a good time to remind listeners and readers about John F. Berkey's "abruckner.com" site, which, once you start poking around in it, will amaze you. Evidently a true labor of love, this site is without a doubt a thing of wonder!

As this relates to which version of the Seventh is used on Mrs. Young's recording, the site states clearly that she uses the 1885 (original version), as edited by Leopold Nowak. It used to be that about half the conductors would use the (Robert) Haas version of the Seventh, while the other half would use Nowak's. It seems to me that I've been seeing Nowak a little more recently (maybe 60/40). Both the Haas and the Nowak editions are based on the original 1885 version - the main differences are that:
  • one of them (now I forget which one!) includes tempo changes within the movements (especially noticeable in the last movement) which some people consider suspect
  • at the climax of the second movement, one of them (again, I forget which one) includes parts for cymbal, bass drum and triangle, which are in the manuscript, but which are accompanied by a presumably later notation which says "gilt nicht" (not valid)
These differences rise to the level of moral equivalents of war for some listeners - I'm not kidding! I read one biography of Bruckner where the writer asserted that to include the bass drum, cymbal and triangle parts in the slow movement climax of the Seventh was a moral offense against Bruckner's music! (I guess the guy conveniently forgot that Bruckner DOES include bass drum and cymbal crashes - no doubt about it - at a similar spot in the slow movement of the Eighth!) ;-)

Ain't Bruckner fun? BTW, here's the link:

 

600 recordings of just Bruckner???, posted on July 12, 2015 at 19:03:44
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26483
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 I tip my hat - that is some real enthusiasm! ;-)

 

RE: I'm surprised there are as many recordings of that 1887 version as there are, posted on July 14, 2015 at 08:23:39
merlinus
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: Northern New Mexico
Joined: June 24, 2008
 Having just compared Simone Young's recording of the original version of Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez's Haas, the latter is clearly better, for me. The pianissimo ending to the first movement in the revision is far more moving than the triple forte of the original.

Also, the recapitulation and coda of the revision is a big improvement over the original. Much more frissons and emotions.

The different trio is not such a big deal, however.

 

The Haas version of the Eighth can be very satisfying, however. . . , posted on July 14, 2015 at 16:46:24
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 What he did was to take the 1890 version, which was an improvement overall from the 1887 version (but which contained cuts that Bruckner made, some say at the instigation of his "friends", to improve the work's "structure"), and add back some of the parts of the 1887 version which Bruckner had cut (e.g., an episode in the finale). So I think that the Haas version contains the most music of any of the versions (not entirely sure), but it also is really a kind of conflation of the 1887 and 1890 versions that Bruckner did not do himself (nor did he approve of it - obviously, since it was done well after his death). There are two Nowak versions for this symphony: one for the 1887 version (the one which Mrs. Young uses), and one for the 1890 edition, with the Haas version existing in a kind of no man's land in between the two versions. Speaking for myself, I like the Haas version AND the Nowak 1890 version.

Now here's an added wrinkle: the Haas editions are, if you will, tainted by their association with Nazi Germany. (They generally came out during the Hitler years, and Haas himself was evidently a party member.) The Wikipedia article sums it all up in a pretty succinct fashion:

 

RE: 600 recordings of just Bruckner???, posted on July 19, 2015 at 12:54:49
bruckner9
Audiophile

Posts: 1184
Location: So Cal
Joined: August 14, 2003
 yeah...of 'just' bruckner! LOL

i have over 50,000 LP's, and over 57,000 recordings (combined cassette, broadcast airchecks, reel tapes, CD's, vinyl, et al).

 

how do you store them and catalogued?, posted on July 19, 2015 at 17:04:46
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10274
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 I would love to see what 50K vinyl looks like in a residential application!

 

And you've listened to all your recordings (not just Bruckner)? Wow! [nt], posted on July 19, 2015 at 23:57:23
Chris from Lafayette
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Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: how do you store them and catalogued?, posted on July 20, 2015 at 00:03:27
bruckner9
Audiophile

Posts: 1184
Location: So Cal
Joined: August 14, 2003
 i have 28,000 in my house....spread around several rooms; my home office, the living room (all walls lined with LP's), a stretch of a hallway between two bedrooms/bathroom, a spare bedroom, and a family room.

i also have 22,000 in my garage (insulated, weather protected...keep in mind i'm here in Southern California...weather not really a problem).

the LP's in my house are all categorized...by genre, alphabetized by artist, by composer, etc, etc. one wall is just female pop/jazz vocal recordings....another wall is just male pop/jazz vocalists, one room is nuttin but 'oldies' (50's and 60's pop/rock), the living room is all classical, etc, etc. the records in the garage are still a work in progress...i'm sorting them out, alphabetizing, etc. might be a while before i get them done.

as far as cataloging....well....i don't. i just head to beethoven, then look within for string quartest, artist name (alphabetized), then specific work, etc. e.g.: head to the beethoven section, then look in the string quartet section, then look for Emerson, then look for Op 59 #3, etc, etc....or, head to the beethoven Symphony section, look for Reiner (way down the row...remember, "A-Z"...and all "Reiner" beethoven syms are filed together), then Sym #7, etc)....you get the idea.

Ditto on Sinatra: head to the male vocal wall...head to sinatra (in his case, also sorted by label within)....head to "Columbia", "Capitol", or "Reprise", depending on what LP i'm gonna play next, then grab it. i TRY to keep all pop records in sequence...so...all Sinatra Reprise records will be stored record 1001 through 1058 (or whatever his last Reprise record number was...don't remember off the top of my head), in numerical order.

but what to do when i get the garage 22,000 sorted and ready to assimilate into the other 28,000 inside the house? i dunno. i haven't gotten that far yet! lol they won't fit in the house unless i completely overhaul another room...and i dunno that i wanna do that. check back with me in 6 months to a year...no telling how it'll all play out! lol

 

RE: And you've listened to all your recordings (not just Bruckner)? Wow! [nt], posted on July 20, 2015 at 00:05:26
bruckner9
Audiophile

Posts: 1184
Location: So Cal
Joined: August 14, 2003
 No...not all. No way! (i DO have a life...also! lol)

 

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