Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!

He's a nice young man who has worked hard and obviously loves music, but he obviously has no clue about the words or the music or the harmonic structure of "Lush Life," a song he has no more right to play in public, than he has the right to recite Hamlet's "Soliloquy" in public for money.

And if anyone doesn't already know the reasons why, I am not only not being paid to teach you; if you don't know by now, I doubt that Gustav Mahler could teach you--or rather Anton Bruckner, who actually taught for a living and was rather successful at it.

Perhaps if Joey spends the next 15 years listening to the Hartman/Coltrane version at least once a day, he might eventually get it.

And some real ear training and music theory, and a little respect for the composer's wishes as clearly shown in the sheet music might help.

The last phrase is on 8 different chords with almost no overlap--that's why "Lush Life" is often called "the only 12-tone 'Great American Songbook' song."

And at this point I truly don't care whatever anyone else thinks.

But everybody should refresh their memories about this:

Get your own valid XHTML YouTube embed code

RE: Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!, posted on May 13, 2015 at 20:03:55
Bill the K Audiophile Posts: 8383 Joined: June 3, 2006	Wonderful. Thanks. It sounded so great on my little Tivoli. Must be so much better and live on Vandersteen and Vivid. The little guy has a great future. Cheers Bill

Well, since John Marks already bursted the bubble..., posted on May 13, 2015 at 21:21:58
kuma Audiophile Posts: 10272 Location: IN Joined: July 8, 2001	That kid isn't that good. So he plays notes and chords but like a robot.

No you don't!, posted on May 13, 2015 at 23:55:58

kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004

The kid is 11!!! I have the Coltrane Hartman & love it as well as Ella's version on Pablo (wonderful)--- Damned impossible to sing as you well know but - give the kid a break willya.

Plus - you can dispense with the gratuitous insults - doesn't accomplish anything and pisses me off. I have never pretended to have your musical acumen nor will I ever. Beside the point tho.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

RE: Well, since John Marks already bursted the bubble..., posted on May 13, 2015 at 23:57:04
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	As I said to John - he's freakin' 11!! "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

RE: Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!, posted on May 14, 2015 at 03:59:23
genungo	Amazing, I'd be interested in hearing Joey try this again a few years down the road. The prodigy that "survives" puberty is the exception rather than the rule, I think.

I don't think I made any gratuitous insults... It was not I who mentioned pubic hair., posted on May 14, 2015 at 05:12:51

John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000

I did not mean to offend, and to the extent I did, I apologize.

# # #

My own kids had enviable musical educations and while I was enthusiastic, I never lost my perspective.

My daughter sang well--FOR A KID!

Her musical training was in the Anglican tradition, so, guess what? No matter what she sang, it all sounded like a little pre-pubescent English boy, singing in a Cathedral.

I played her audition recording of Canteloube's "La Delaissado" for a record-producer friend, and we both cracked up at the cognitive dissonance of a ballad of lost love in the Auvergnat dialect coming out sounding like a pre-pubescent English boy singing A Ceremony of Carols.

Young Joey demonstrated the upside and the downside of being child prodigy.

I would not have been so grumpy if he had done what he did to "I've Got Rhythm." That kind of over-arranged non-stop embellishment is OK with me on "I've Got Rhythm." Bring it on, Joey! Embellish your embellishments!

But there should be a "Golden Fence" around the sheet music of "Lush Life."

IMHO.

jm

RE: Hate to be a party-pooper, but,, posted on May 14, 2015 at 06:30:47

David Smith

"The last phrase is on 8 different chords with almost no overlap--that's why "Lush Life" is often called "the only 12-tone 'Great American Songbook' song."

I think that probably has more to do with the melody, which has every note in it except G, so we'll call it "11-tone". That is relatively unusual in the American Songbook.

Chromatic chords are not really unusual though, especially if you start including folks like Strayhorn and Ellington, but even Hoagy Carmichael did that a fair amount.

I can only get so excited about young phenoms, especially when they're going the sideshow route putting records out as kids, but I can't help but wonder if the reaction here would have been different with the audio but without video showing an 11 year-old Asian kid, and without the cheesy electric piano.

Dave

Public hair?!? what the... nt, posted on May 14, 2015 at 07:00:23
David Smith

RE: Hate to be a party-pooper, but,, posted on May 14, 2015 at 07:34:40
rbolaw	I enjoy hearing whiz kids like this, while at the same time conceding John Marks' point that he still has a way to go. Funny you mention Hoagy Charmichael, Lush Life reminds me of Star Dust in some ways.

RE: Hate to be a party-pooper, but,, posted on May 14, 2015 at 07:41:23
David Smith	Sure, and Skylark too. Dave

RE: Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!, posted on May 14, 2015 at 07:45:34
Old SteveA Audiophile Posts: 648 Joined: March 27, 2011	Is it just the camera angle,or does this kid have large hands ? I only watched a short bit of it,but his hands looked like the kind of hands a Classical Guitarist would just die to have;& he's only 11 !!

RE: No you don't!, posted on May 14, 2015 at 08:02:15
Old SteveA Audiophile Posts: 648 Joined: March 27, 2011	I don't think anyone is really debating how talented the kid is !!! The simple truth the world has always seen it's share of these wonderfully talented kids that unfortunately never reached the "Musical" maturity they could/should have as they didn't have the right guidance to progress to that point !

GMAFB, posted on May 14, 2015 at 09:45:35
Paul_A Audiophile Posts: 2553 Location: New York City Joined: April 3, 2000	Words fail me.

I noticed that as well - nt, posted on May 14, 2015 at 11:27:06
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	- "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

You will just have to take my word for it, posted on May 14, 2015 at 15:31:12

John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000

You will just have to take my word for it that had the pianist been 17 and a young woman from Norway and had she been playing a Fazioli and she had similarly refused to let the composer have the last word that the composer intended to be the last word, I would have similarly shared my lack of enthusiasm.

The last 8 chords (I have the sheet in a folder somewhere but I apparently never scanned it, and old age is making me lazy) are so lacking in centeredness and confidence and resolution. That is what the song and the music is about. Being adrift because of having been rejected. It not only doesn't need "jazzing up," it suffers from it. The 8 last syllables and 8 last chords (from memory, I don't have the sheet in front of me) just have to end without resolution and hang there.

There was a great story about 30 years ago about a young pianist playing pastiches in an Italian restaurant in NYC and he was going to town improvising and adding octaves and running up the keyboard and spreading embellishments as thickly as was the sauce on the calamari, and he had lapsed into his own little reverie, which was ended by pain and immobility in both his hands.

He opened his eyes to find this very large guy who would not have looked out of place in an episode of "The Sopranos," leaning forcefully on both the pianist's hands.

The big guy then very evenly said,

"ENOUGH WITH THE 'DIMAGGIOS.' JUST PLAY THE TUNES."

Too good to fact-check, I say!

ATB,

jm

RE: Hate to be a party-pooper, but,, posted on May 14, 2015 at 16:04:24
Awe-d-o-file Dealer Posts: 21037 Location: 50 miles west of DC Joined: January 10, 2004	He is talented but not oh my God talented. Is that a goof at 3:32? I pretty much stopped after that, not my cup of tea. E T ET "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

well, this one is 8 years old..., posted on May 14, 2015 at 17:01:42
kuma Audiophile Posts: 10272 Location: IN Joined: July 8, 2001	I am not nuts about this one either. There are so many wunderkind from the Orient where music study has been pushed by parents for ages. Wonder if one of them is going to become next Horowitz or Bud Powell.

Sorry Mr. Marks, I think you ENJOY being a party-pooper..., posted on May 14, 2015 at 17:17:12
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	In fact, you're just an all around poopy guy. Poop here, poop there, poop everywhere. Poop! First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: You will just have to take my word for it, posted on May 14, 2015 at 18:50:54

David Smith

"The last 8 chords (I have the sheet in a folder somewhere but I apparently never scanned it, and old age is making me lazy) are so lacking in centeredness and confidence and resolution. That is what the song and the music is about. Being adrift because of having been rejected. It not only doesn't need "jazzing up," it suffers from it. The 8 last syllables and 8 last chords (from memory, I don't have the sheet in front of me) just have to end without resolution and hang there."

Well, it ends on the tonic chord. It's a series of chords that leads to and ends on the tonic chord. I imagine you know that those last chords on the Coltrane/Hartman version are not Strayhorn's, they removed the contrary motion in the bass and made them parallel ascending chords. In other words they changed them just as you accuse Alexander of.

Dave

Not the same thing. IMHO, posted on May 14, 2015 at 20:26:03

John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000

I actually think that the Coltrane/Hartman version ends up on a "bridge too far," and I don't know what temperament Hartman's last note is in, but, it sounds strained/forced/unnatural. Not what it should be.

But given Rudy van Gelder's weird production methods and the fact that Coltrane and Strayhorn were never in the studio at the same time, it's the best we have of that.

The sheet music is for an art song. Coltrane/Hartman/van Gelder/Whoever might have adjusted some harmonies, but the vocal phrase is essentially as in the copyright deposit copy--is it not??? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 syllables?

What Joey does is noodle here and noodle there and give us a lot of DiMaggios that were not on the menu. I don't like having cheap spaghetti sauce thrown at me, no matter how much fun the thrower are having at my expense.

Now here's a true artist that all of Joey's idolators must bow before, because, "He who says 'A' then must say 'B'":

Get your own valid XHTML YouTube embed code

Rubinstein and Horowitz, kill yourselves!

By definition, the largest number of the most meaningless notes wins!

jm

immer essen

PS: SAM TELLIG HAS HACKED MY EMAIL ACCOUNT AND I AM IN A LANDFILL IN JOHNSTON RI. LOVE TO MOTHER.

So now there should not be a golden fence around the sheet music?, posted on May 14, 2015 at 20:57:15

David Smith

then there's letting "the composer have the last word that the composer intended to be the last word"

"Coltrane/Hartman/van Gelder/Whoever [not van Gelder!!!] might have adjusted some harmonies, but the vocal phrase is essentially as in the copyright deposit copy--is it not??? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 syllables?"

Well, Hartman pauses before the last note and then sings a C instead of an F, a fifth away from the note in the copyright deposit copy. Alexander pauses similarly on the second-last chord, repeats it once up an octave and then ends on F, the note in the copyright deposit copy.

It's easy to dismiss embellishment and call it "DiMaggios", again I'm not sure you use that language if you don't see an 11 year-old Asian boy that looks easy to dismiss. You might not like the way he played it, ok, but "he obviously has no clue about the words or the music or the harmonic structure of "Lush Life," a song he has no more right to play in public, than he has the right to recite Hamlet's "Soliloquy" in public for money." Based on what? Would you say the same for the young man in the video below?

Dave

Lush Life

Interesting point, posted on May 14, 2015 at 23:55:52
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	thanks "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

Should I have said "for a KID", posted on May 14, 2015 at 23:57:52
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	suppose so. Can't help but admire a youngster who would take on such a challenge. Should he have chosen Malaguena? "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

Disagree Here.........., posted on May 15, 2015 at 00:23:37

Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000

"He's a nice young man who has worked hard and obviously loves music, but he obviously has no clue about the words or the music or the harmonic structure of 'Lush Life,' a song he has no more right to play in public, than he has the right to recite Hamlet's 'Soliloquy' in public for money."

Who determines who has the right to perform anything, in front of anyone? .... As one who "poops on a lot of parties", I had no problem with this particular performance. No problem whatsoever.

"And if anyone doesn't already know the reasons why, I am not only not being paid to teach you; if you don't know by now, I doubt that Gustav Mahler could teach you--or rather Anton Bruckner, who actually taught for a living and was rather successful at it."

Not sure what your point is here........

"Perhaps if Joey spends the next 15 years listening to the Hartman/Coltrane version at least once a day, he might eventually get it."

This wasn't a Brahms piece he was performing.... Jazz has a lot of leeway..... There's no "proper" or "improper" way to perform it, as long as the spirit of the composer comes through. I thought the young chap did capture it.

"And some real ear training and music theory, and a little respect for the composer's wishes as clearly shown in the sheet music might help."

Once again, this is jazz.... If a jazz performer sounds exactly like Coltrane, he'd probably be better off performing classical works.

"The last phrase is on 8 different chords with almost no overlap--that's why 'Lush Life' is often called 'the only 12-tone Great American Songbook song.'"

You'd have to provide an example regarding what to listen for.....

"And at this point I truly don't care whatever anyone else thinks."

That's fine....

"But everybody should refresh their memories about this:"

Comparing an 11-year-old to Coltrane.... Kind of unfair to the 11-year-old.... Isn't it? Not to mention a totally different rendition.

RE: You will just have to take my word for it, posted on May 15, 2015 at 00:36:19
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	This is like rebuking a little league baseball player for not understanding the nuances of hitting like Ted Williams........

RE: Hate to be a party-pooper, but,, posted on May 15, 2015 at 07:05:00

Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: well, this one is 8 years old..., posted on May 15, 2015 at 08:04:23
Hornlover Manufacturer Posts: 2529 Joined: March 8, 2002	'There are so many wunderkind from the Orient where music study has been pushed by parents for ages'...and when they get to be teenagers or young adults, finally crack and shoot everyone within eyesight...I'm joking, of course, but you would think that kind of constant pushing will take its toll somewhere down the line. Let kids evolve naturally. Its a proven formula.

The kid is stiff, but Coltrane changed, posted on May 15, 2015 at 11:49:18
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	the melody in one place to accomadate His Chord progession, not uncommon Jazz practice. Doing it Your way is at the Heart of Jazz. I think Wunderkinds have a knack for Mimicry, which is separate from real understanding. It's weird to watch him, he is really concentrating, trying to remember all he has worked up. And that Bass, all pickup, no actual tone.

There are plenty of other videos of him, posted on May 15, 2015 at 12:37:58
David Smith	That's a lot of stuff to "work up", not to mention his record. Interesting social experiment, this thread. Funny as I'm not that interested or impressed by child phenoms, but the reactions from others are interesting. Dave

"....the reactions from others are interesting." LOL! That's one way to put it :-) nt, posted on May 15, 2015 at 13:33:02
Rick W	nt

My reaction to child prodigies, posted on May 16, 2015 at 06:07:34

rbolaw

I've had a chance to hear and see a number of them close up, as well as meet them. What's disappointing when you take a close look is how most of them are already consumed in the business and professional aspects of music. It's already a serious job, and for the ordinary childhood fun they desperately need, they look to anything but music.
That may be a reasonable price to pay for the small fraction of prodigies who achieve true long term fame and stardom. For the rest, it seems too much.
And as impressive and improbable-seeming as it is that an 11-year old can steam through Lush Life, or the Mendelssohn violin concerto, it turns out there are more children who can do things like that than the casual observer might think.

RE: Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!, posted on May 16, 2015 at 07:44:57
bjh Audiophile Posts: 18614 Location: Ontario Joined: November 22, 2003	Let's hope the continues on with encouragement and doesn't suffer encountering a mean spirited invective such as the inane one below. Myself I was mostly surprised by his urge to always lean to dissonance notes, perhaps too much so. Obviously precocious ... that alone has always been an issue for some.

I've never run across a prodigy as young as this kid in person., posted on May 16, 2015 at 08:22:08

Rick W

I've met some guys who were fantastic players at a fairly young age - like alto players Loren Stillman when he was 19 and Miguel Zenon at age 20 - but I never heard where they were at when they were as young as 11.

I don't see any reason to think this 11 year old is involved in the biz end of music at all - I'd bet his parents and/or manager handle all that. From what I heard, I'd guess the kid spends most of his time shedding his axe and learning scales/chord progressions/tunes, playing in groups rather than dealing with business decisions. I mean c'mon, how much involvement in things like setting up gigs at jazz venues like Dizzy's Club Coca-Cola could an 11 year old have?

In this 11 year old's case the truth is that none of us have any idea what his life is like. His parents may be doing a wonderful job of raising him. For all we know the kid could be doing great at school and having lots of fun. He seems pretty happy and well adjusted in the video I linked. Don't forget, though it is a business and certainly has attendant negative aspects, the jazz scene is mostly a lot looser atmosphere than a kid would encounter playing a Beethoven concerto at Carnegie Hall with the NYP.

Hey, all I can say with any degree of certainty is that its blatantly obvious that this kid could potentially become a helluva jazz musician. Dunno if that will actually happen - after all, he's only 11, ain't exactly Herbie Hancock yet, and one never knows what life has in store. But man, what an amazing head start!

http://www.today.com/popculture/11-year-old-jazz-musician-do

All that may be true., posted on May 16, 2015 at 09:48:36
rbolaw	One never knows, do one? Supportive parents are no doubt a big plus, but the road to stardom is still a high-pressure one for most young kids (TV talk shows, major venues, etc.) And you're right, I know nothing about this 11-year old, though I've seen others. We'll see where he is in 10 years.

RE: Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!, posted on May 19, 2015 at 08:52:05

RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

I sense a lot of opinions might shift greatly when blind listening is involved. Girl has weird make-up and hair she has to suck - Jazz created by poor weathered individuals beaten by alcohol, drugs etc can't be good played by a rich kid because they don't have the maturity to "get it" so all they do is note playing. See page - see time and note - push key at the right time at the right speed. It's why musicians are often likened to mathematicians - some old geezer at a piano pounding the keys and grimacing and sweating and having a bunch of tormented facial expressions - that's emotion - someone else sits stone faced plays the exact same thing but has no emotion because it's the visual taking the lead.

Personally, I don't see all the fuss over Lush Life. I've listened to the original to the Gaga and I'm not a big fan of this song on any level. Maybe you need to be in the state of Lush or plain old hammered to love it.

sounds like some jazz standard with weeping sentimentality thrown in [n.t.a.], posted on May 22, 2015 at 08:03:58
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

Music Lane

Joey Alexander - Age 11 - Wow!

74.70.168.166