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Can't get away from Bruckner!

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Posted on April 28, 2015 at 12:42:07
mrjdub33@aol.com
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Joined: June 8, 2008
 One of Life's great companions (music) and due to recent times, has me spending more time with the Composer As I'm finding his work soothing for the soul. I have three fantastic recordings 7th & 9th from Paavo Jarvi sacd RCA label and also a 7th by Marek Janowski Pentatone sacd .All are wonderful with more of a preference for Paavo's interpetaion but find Marek's worth of having in the collection. This brings me to my post, after the reading the May issue of Stereophile the "recording of the month" happens to be Bruckners 8th (Remy Ballot, Upper Austrian Youth sympohny) Gramola 2 sacd. In addition to this purchase, I also ordered the 4th. Looking forward to these as its hard to get away rigth now. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Jqi6d9PCL._SX522_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/612l46GtHBL.jpg

 

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RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 12:50:12
mrjdub33@aol.com
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Images!

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 12:51:47
mrjdub33@aol.com
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Images of the 4th, sorry kinda forgot how in original post!

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 15:17:14
zako
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 I never thought he was that great.... Wagner met him,,Remarked,,He thought he was an IDIOT...I wouldn't go that far..

 

I am still coming to terms with his music, but have recommendations, posted on April 28, 2015 at 15:30:15
TGR
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 A couple of performances which might not be on your radar screen - Szell conducting the 3rd and Klemperer conducting the 6th. I have always liked the 4th, 7th and 8th, but have had some issues with the others. But I find that these performances shed important light on these works. For the 9th I believe that the 4th movement is required to truly demonstrate the composers intentions - over the years quite a lot of it has emerged. I suppose that the Rattle recording (I have an SACD of it) would be the choice.

I have yet to find a 5th that works for me.....

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 15:38:53
Todd Krieger
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 "Wagner met him,,Remarked,,He thought he was an IDIOT..."

I was told that Wagner spoke highly of Bruckner..... I guess sources can conflict......

 

Great recording, IMNSHO...., posted on April 28, 2015 at 16:53:25
Ivan303
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Don't have the SACD but am streaming it right now at 16/44.1 via QOBUZ and can at least tell it's well recorded.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Great recording, IMNSHO...., posted on April 28, 2015 at 17:03:26
mrjdub33@aol.com
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 That's good to hear!

 

Well he certainly was an odd duck..., posted on April 28, 2015 at 17:13:57
Ivan303
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but he sure wrote some powerful stuff.

In the hands of a sympathetic conductor like Blomstedt, only live performance I can recall attending, Bruckner can be magical.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 17:15:23
mrjdub33@aol.com
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 Nonetheless! I find his work tried and true, as for his contemporaries could just be hearsay but who knows!

 

Wow! - those are some SLOW timings!, posted on April 28, 2015 at 20:32:37
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'd read some reviews indicating the tempos were slow in this new performance, but I just re-checked my Celibidache/Munich (EMI) recording and Ballot even manages to out-slow Celibidache in two of the four movements (second and fourth, although just by a few seconds in the fourth) - I would never have thought this kind of accomplishment would even be possible! ;-)

I've also read that the echo-ey acoustics of St. Florian influenced Ballot's tempo choices. In a previous discussion, we noted that this is a minimally microphoned recording (one omni for each of the five channels), so that's pretty exciting for me and I do plan to acquire this release soon. (I've been so busy getting my CD's onto computer - it's taking almost all of my free time because of all the meta info acquisition and listening checks involved.) Also, I can't listen on Spotify right now since my Facebook/Spotify account was hacked and I'm giving it some time before I re-enroll.

It's too bad that a blu-ray was not made of this performance - from the looks of that still photo on the back, it appears as if the Oberösterreichisches Jugendsinfonieorchester (the "OÖ JSO", as some folks fondly call it!) has some babes within its ranks. Babes and Bruckner - does it get any better than that? ;-) In fact, let's post another pic of them:

 

I just recently got that Honeck recording of the Fourth myself, posted on April 28, 2015 at 20:36:55
Chris from Lafayette
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 I's a VERY imaginative performance - I like his re-thinking of some of the balances and dynamic levels at some key points. He mentions a couple of these in his booklet notes and IMHO they're VERY effective. The microphones are slightly close for my taste, but overall, this is a real ear-opener of a recording!

 

I think Szell kind of had it right, posted on April 28, 2015 at 21:05:58
Chris from Lafayette
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 I've read that Szell considered Bruckner a "great but imperfect" composer. For years, I considered Bruckner my favorite composer, but although I still like his music a lot, his over-spinning of sequences and his rhetorically weak conclusions to many of his movements (many of which sound as if they just stop without enough preparation) have come to bother me a bit more now than they used to.

 

RE: I think Szell kind of had it right, posted on April 28, 2015 at 21:22:27
mrjdub33@aol.com
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 I'm not sure I've heard an ending I liked!Probably why we tend to favor things that fade out slowly or end in splendor but given some of the crucial nature of Bruckner's work the ending seem to loom with the question of pending.

 

RE: I think Szell kind of had it right, posted on April 29, 2015 at 02:33:34
Todd Krieger
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 "I've read that Szell considered Bruckner a 'great but imperfect' composer. For years, I considered Bruckner my favorite composer, but although I still like his music a lot, his over-spinning of sequences and his rhetorically weak conclusions to many of his movements (many of which sound as if they just stop without enough preparation) have come to bother me a bit more now than they used to."

This is why so few conductors really "get it" with Bruckner.... (Szell is one of many who don't.) I had a similar opinion to yours of Bruckner's 5th Symphony, for example..... Until I heard Herbert Blomstedt conduct it.... The piece transformed from a bland exercise in music into an epic and monumental experience.... In this performance, even Blomstedt himself couldn't hold it back, after the piece ended.

It took me YEARS to realize what Bruckner was about, by the way. I was once not a fan.... (I've even bashed this composer at times, getting into heated arguments with Bruckner fans. On this very board.) But give it to a conductor who understands the composer, the composer becomes top-tier.

 

RE: Wow! - those are some SLOW timings!, posted on April 29, 2015 at 02:48:56
Todd Krieger
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 Sergiu Celibidache was oft criticized for doing Bruckner "slow".... But if you listen, you'll realize he maybe understood the composer most of all.

 

And as it's a live performance...., posted on April 29, 2015 at 07:13:48
Ivan303
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 you'll hear some clinking and clanking in the background. But no snoring, thankfully.

Amazon sellers are now offering it for less that $20 and for a 5 channel double SACD, that ain't bad.

That said, the only 5 channel systems I can recall hearing were 'home theater' systems and not very 'audiophile' sounding as most of my friends can only afford TWO good speakers! =:-0


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: SLOW!, posted on April 29, 2015 at 07:28:59
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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"This may not be the best performance of Bruckner's Eighth, but it has become the one I most cherish, because it is the one that most cherishes the music. More than any other, it takes me where I want to go when I listen to Bruckner. If music so rich needs to be listened to as slowly as possible, well, with this recording, it can be. — Richard Lehnert"


Stereophile review is below: Hard to disagree.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 29, 2015 at 08:42:52
John N
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Posts: 1325
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 I'm a big fan (BTW - anyone get to hear the CSO Bruckner 8th from last weekend?)

A few random recs

The Bruckner 6th by Furtwangler (missing the first movement!) is phenomenal even as a stump.

Schuricht's Bruckner, especially the 8th, is outstanding.

Mravinsky had a fabulous 8th as well, and a quite awful 9th.

Klemperer's eighth is great through the first 3 movements, but then he decided to do his own edits for the last movement. In my opinion, his cuts were disfiguring.

I have yet to hear a completely convincing 5th. Definitely the problem child in Bruckner's work.

Unlike a lot of recs, I am not at all sold on Gunter Wand's Bruckner (OTOH, I really like Wand's Beethoven)

I wonder whether Bruckner's great weakness may be his lack of interest in compositions for solo instruments/chamber pieces.

I have always felt that one of Bruckner's great influences was Schubert, and conductors who get that are more likely to transmit the conductors intentions.

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 29, 2015 at 10:09:11
mrjdub33@aol.com
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 Very insightful post guys!

 

Really interesting list, posted on April 29, 2015 at 10:27:42
TGR
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 I have an EMI set of the Klemperer Bruckners - recommendable 4th and 6th. He had me for the first 3 movements of the 7th, then he loses focus and continuity in the last movement - completely episodic. Haven't heard the 5th, 8th or 9th yet.

I have heard the 5th conducted live by Blomstedt and in recordings by Haitink, Harnoncourt, Jochum, and van Beinum and for me your assessment of that symphony as a problem child is right on.

 

Yes - I have Blomstedt's recent complete SACD set with the LGO, posted on April 29, 2015 at 10:38:25
Chris from Lafayette
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 It's one of my recommendations for complete sets (along with Skrowaczewski on plain old CD). However, for me, even Blomstedt can't overcome the weaknesses I mentioned in Bruckner's symphonies in my post above. (BTW, I've always liked the Fifth, which remains one of my favorites, along with the Eighth and Ninth.) Actually, I can't tell you how many recordings I have of the Bruckner symphonies - it's a lot, even though I don't know the Furtwängler and Jochum (either set) recordings well at all.

 

RE: I think Szell kind of had it right, posted on April 29, 2015 at 10:54:43
merlinus
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 Todd, the link you gave to the Blomstedt/Bruckner 5 does not work for me. Which recording is this?

 

Yes - I have all the commercially issued Celi recordings, posted on April 29, 2015 at 10:56:02
Chris from Lafayette
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 (by which I mean the complete DG and EMI sets). Like Steve Jobs, Celi had a kind of "reality distortion field" which, while you were in its presence, could convince you that the way he did things (no matter how slow the tempo in Celibidache's case) was the only possible right way to do them! Part of the reason for this is that he usually got more time than other conductors did for rehearsals, and this shows in the unity of approach from every member of the orchestra. I saw Celibidache and the Munich Phil live doing their (in)famous 85-minute rendition of the Bruckner Fourth, and it was this unanimity in thinking from every member of the orchestra which was so impressive - they really were all on the same page to a much greater extent than I've heard from almost any other orchestral performance. Of course, that doesn't mean that that's the only way to do Bruckner - as I mention above, the recent Honeck/Pittsburgh recording of Bruckner's Fourth is also magnificent IMHO, and also features impressively unified playing on the part of the orhcestra.

 

OK - Just ordered it! [nt] ;-), posted on April 29, 2015 at 11:21:09
Chris from Lafayette
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BTW, it's good to see that Lehnert caught himself with his purple prose! [nt] ;-), posted on April 29, 2015 at 11:28:14
Chris from Lafayette
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It's not a commercial recording, posted on April 29, 2015 at 11:31:35
Chris from Lafayette
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 It's a live performance with one of Todd's beloved Japanese bands! ;-)

 

Invite us all over when you get it ;-) /nt, posted on April 29, 2015 at 14:09:52
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 t


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 29, 2015 at 16:38:15
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 ".... is great through the first 3 movements, but then he decided to do his own edits for the last movement. In my opinion, his cuts were disfiguring."

Sounds like a description of George Szell's Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra"........

 

RE: Saw Blomstedt conduct Bruckner once.., posted on April 29, 2015 at 19:42:36
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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 Was at least 4 years ago, and yes, he gets it.

One thing to keep in mind. Bruckner was a VERY religious guy and it is said that most or perhaps all of his compositions were religious in nature. Blomstedt is a very devout Seventh Day Adventist so there may well be a connection there between Bruckner and Blomstedt. Who knows? I sure enjoy his work and try not to miss him when he comes to town.

Also enjoying Todd's link, worth the effort to register as long as I didn't download a virus in the process.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Saw Blomstedt conduct Bruckner once.., posted on April 29, 2015 at 22:26:06
Todd Krieger
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Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 The "religious" thing is an interesting angle..... A theme in the middle of the last movement sounded like a church organ (depicted by the brass), followed by a hushed reverberant echo (depicted by muted strings), as if to create the effect of a huge cathedral...... The entire movement had the effect of peaceful refuge inside a church in the midst of a violent war battle going on outside.....

 

RE: Saw Blomstedt conduct Bruckner once.., posted on April 30, 2015 at 00:47:15
mrjdub33@aol.com
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 This is why I'm finding it hard to get away from his work as I've come to understand it a bit better and believe its largely due him being a religious man! At times you can pick up on a deep internal struggle while at others hope! Glad to hear another conductor got it! Paavo did an excellent job with the 7th & especially his 9th conveying this with a great tempo that encompassed both.

 

Heard the CSO do the 8th in Symphony Center last Sunday., posted on April 30, 2015 at 05:58:05
Tadlo
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 It was a spectacular performance, a truly memorable experience.

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 30, 2015 at 07:44:48
Mel
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 Good price for the Ballot from MDT in the UK.

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on April 30, 2015 at 18:47:51
merlinus
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 Just finished listening to an SACD of Celibidache conducting Bruckner 4, recorded 5 & 6 February 1989 at the Musikverein. It may be the greatest symphony recording I have ever heard.

This is not the concert in the Celi EMI box, which is also excellent, but both the SQ and interpretation are even superior to that one.

 

Sony, I assume?, posted on May 1, 2015 at 00:16:29
Chris from Lafayette
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I don't believe I've heard this one. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that some of these performances appeared on LaserDisc previously? I had a couple of those, but not the Fourth.

 

RE: Sony, I assume?, posted on May 1, 2015 at 00:36:51
merlinus
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 Yes, Chris, this is in the Sony box. The two concerts at Suntory Hall in Japan (7 and 8) have been issued on LaserDisc previously, indicated in a DVD review at amazon.

 

I enjoyed Bychkov/CSO Bruckner 8, too..., posted on May 1, 2015 at 00:55:10
kuma
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 Thought it was well paced, well organised and well played.
In a long Adagio, whilst I was almost in tears, for a friend of mine who was with me, the finale could not come soon enough.

He's deeply in the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms and does not think much of Mahler, Bruckner or Wagner.


 

I've never had any difficulty, it only took one listen., posted on May 2, 2015 at 04:32:32
Timbo in Oz
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 Just once.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on May 18, 2015 at 01:06:44
mrjdub33@aol.com
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Posts: 381
Joined: June 8, 2008

Due to not being able to get the 8th I planed I went ahead searched only to find Gunter Wand's 8th (RCA Red Seal Esoteric Sacd) and absolutely love the performance and recording. I found Honecks 4th good as well with a shocker being the 5.1 sacd mix sounded better than the stereo.

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on May 18, 2015 at 10:30:49
merlinus
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 I saw the Wand SACD at amazon. Very pricey! Probably best to order direct from Japan.

IIRC there are a few more in this format -- nos. 4, 5, 7, and 9. Have you heard any of those?

 

RE: Can't get away from Bruckner!, posted on May 18, 2015 at 11:27:31
mrjdub33@aol.com
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Joined: June 8, 2008
 Haven't heard any of the others but after enjoying the 8th looks like I'll have to pony up for a few more!

 

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