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The Big Fugue - Brilliant or Blunder?

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Posted on March 26, 2015 at 10:07:44
krisjan
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By the "big fugue" I am, of course, referring to the original finale of Beethoven's Op.130 string quartet in B-flat which LvB himself stripped away from the quartet and had it published separately under the name Gosse Fugue as Op.133. For me, the quartets 13-15 are a miracle but I definitely prefer Op.130 with the Cavatina finale. The circumstances surrounding LvB's removal of that movement are well documented and it is not my intention to focus on the historical aspects of it but rather what YOU think about the big fugue, either as a stand-alone work or as the finale of Op.130.

For me, I don't think the music coheres - every performance I've heard (and this would be at least 12 world famous quartets as well as a couple recordings in its orchestrated version) has a disjointed sound that fails to convince me. Is it slight rhythmic differences between the players that destroy the coherence? I don't know. Or, is it just the music itself? Maybe what LvB heard in his head didn't quite make it to the staff? My conclusion - it was a blunder and LvB did the right thing in removing it from Op.130. And maybe, deep down, he knew it too. What say you?

 

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I enjoy it myself, but. . . , posted on March 26, 2015 at 10:32:47
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. . . I do know other people who feel as you do. I remember talking to one person who had never heard the Grosse Fuge until AFTER he had already gotten his doctoral degree in music (!). He finally bought a recording of it, and couldn't understand the high esteem with which the work was held by so many listeners, writers, and other musicians. So, for a while, he was asking other people (me included), "So what's the big deal with this piece?"

As to whether the Grosse Fuge should be the last movement of the Op. 130 Quartet, I agree with you that Beethoven did the right thing by removing it and making it a separate work with its own opus number. I also agree that Op. 130 does cohere better with the "substitute" finale, and I actually don't like it when some quartets "restore" the Grosse Fuge back as the finale of the Op. 130 quartet.

 

BTW - I think Op. 127 is pretty miraculous too! [nt] ;-), posted on March 26, 2015 at 11:41:53
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I had the Linsay Qt SACD of the Grosse fugue ,, posted on March 26, 2015 at 12:02:45
oldmkvi
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certainly the Worst Sounding Group I've heard on a Commercial Recording!
The Piece? Couldn't tell...

 

up yur dosage, posted on March 26, 2015 at 12:47:31
mbnx01
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Blunder? That's insane.











'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: I had the Linsay Qt SACD of the Grosse fugue ,, posted on March 26, 2015 at 13:11:26
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Yes - as may know, I'm not a fan of the Lindays myself. Sometimes I think their modus operandi might be that sheer enthusiasm can make up for a multitude of sins! ;-)

 

RE: The Big Fugue - Brilliant or Blunder?, posted on March 26, 2015 at 13:44:26
fstein
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re Linsay: I always thought they were out of tune, and their first violin had intonation problems: if they hadn't the xenophobic Gramaphone behind them....

 

RE: I enjoy it myself, but. . . , posted on March 26, 2015 at 14:15:35
Plenty of Beethoven's music was received with harsh criticism, and it didn't appear to faze him. From what I've read, he agreed to have the maligned Grosse Fuge published as a separate piece and compose something to replace it in his Op. 130 quartet only because his publisher paid him to do that. He was always happy to churn something out, even less-than-masterpiece caliber work in some cases, if there was money to be made, so it doesn't necessarily reflect his thinking on the subject, imo.

Most modern audiences are much less tolerant of marathon-length pieces or concerts than they were in Beethoven's day, so it's somewhat a moot point, but I agree with you that the shorter version of Op. 130 works better in performance.





 

RE: The Big Fugue - Brilliant or Blunder?, posted on March 26, 2015 at 16:47:05
TGR
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The Lindsay's did in fact play out of tune....their defenders claim that these audible intonation problems are actually an expressive device.....I think they just couldn't play in tune. It wasn't just Gramophone who defended them - Bernard Jacobsen was a huge fan as well. It must be like well-hung pheasant....you have to be English to appreciate it.

Fanfare reviewer Jerry Dubins is such a strong proponent of using the Gross Fugue as the final movement that he nixed a set of Beethoven quartets that he otherwise liked when they released the Gross Fugue in the set with the Middle Quartets instead of the Late Quartets.....kind of an overreaction in my mind.

 

Bernard Jacobsen, Fanfare's own "Mr. Repeat" - His ONLY claim to fame, posted on March 26, 2015 at 17:23:40
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I have no idea as to why he was so anal retentive about musicians needing to take every last, bleeding repeat. His opinions per se were certainly worthless - that's of course IMOHO. ;-)

 

RE: "I actually don't like it when some quartets "restore"...", posted on March 26, 2015 at 20:38:06
Ivan303
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Nice descriptor.

Perhaps we should begin to use the term Historically Restored Performance in place of Historically Informed Performance. :-)



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: I had the Linsay Qt SACD of the Grosse fugue ,, posted on March 26, 2015 at 21:17:02
Ivan303
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Yep, it's pretty awful, even at QOBUZ's 16/44.1 Lossless FLAC.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Great idea - I like it! [nt] ;-), posted on March 26, 2015 at 23:23:02
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It's funny. . . , posted on March 26, 2015 at 23:34:37
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. . . we seem to be more worried about proportionality in Beethoven's works. But when Mahler writes marathon length symphonies, we eat it up. And, for the most part, I don't mind the often unequal dimensions of the Mahler symphonies myself. (Or Bruckner for that matter - I always find it interesting that the first two movements of Bruckner's Eighth last about 15 minutes each, while the last two movements last about 25 minutes each - very unusual proportions for a symphony. And again, AFAIC, it's all good!)

 

His tastes were certainly different from mine, posted on March 27, 2015 at 07:50:34
TGR
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He made the rather astonishing comment, at least I found it so, that Elgar was a great composer than Mahler. This elicited to me my very first letter to Fanfare, asking what was the basis for that view - as much as someone might love Elgar, I don't think many would hold that opinion. I was disappointed by his response, which was vacuous. Ah well, he wrote well....

 

I have that Lindsay SACD - it is irritating. (nt), posted on March 27, 2015 at 08:43:37
krisjan
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.

 

I have a LOT of LVB St Qts by Tokyo Qt-, posted on March 27, 2015 at 10:07:25
oldmkvi
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Highly recommended.

 

I have their recent SACD set..., posted on March 27, 2015 at 15:05:03
krisjan
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...and it is indeed wonderful! BUT, their performance of the Grosse Fugue did not change my mind about that piece.

 

RE: The Big Fugue - Brilliant or Blunder?, posted on March 27, 2015 at 20:33:54
steve.ott@kctcs.edu
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I can't stand it and feel guilty about it (a little anyway). I love 127, 130, 131, 132, 135. They are probably my favorite classical pieces.

 

I'm still trying to make heads or tails of his Missa Solemnis, posted on March 28, 2015 at 10:23:41
I have the classic Klemperer but prefer the Collegium Aureum on DHS, for it's transparency.

Still, apart from the exquisite solo violin material in the Sanctus, I've not been able to grab hold of all the Choral fugues. I recall being mystified in a similar way by the 1st Mov't of the Mahler 8th but eventually everything clicked in a big way.

 

RE: The Big Fugue - Brilliant or Blunder?, posted on March 28, 2015 at 15:36:53
goldenthal
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Here goes: the Grosse Fugue is my favorite piece of music. I'd be grateful if after my death mourners listen to it. There; exposed!

I find the replacement movement a let-down at the end of the Op. 130.

My favorite performance is the Quartetto's.

I agree with Chris that the 0p. 127 is gorgeous.


Unburdened; thanks,

Jeremy

 

RE: I'm still trying to make heads or tails of his Missa Solemnis, posted on March 28, 2015 at 15:42:23
goldenthal
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Try Toscanini; for a more modern sound, try Eugen Jochum. Hearing different performances might illuminate the score.


Jeremy

 

So, I'll put you down for "brilliant" :-) (nt), posted on March 28, 2015 at 16:40:21
krisjan
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.

 

RE: I'm still trying to make heads or tails of his Missa Solemnis, posted on March 29, 2015 at 11:39:53
rws
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I have Levine with the Vienna phil, I like it




"Sometime I will have to give account of myself. How would the Father in heaven judge me if I followed others and not Him", Anton Bruckner

 

RE: "overreaction" - TGR, you have a gift for understatement! (nt), posted on April 19, 2015 at 13:39:48
goldenthal
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n

 

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