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Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning....

67.161.182.178

Posted on January 18, 2015 at 11:29:16
I'm tired of the Mahler 2nd.

Live, recorded, hi-rez, low-rez, Lp, CD, mono, stereo, quad, historical; even Boulez' reduced chamber version for two harmoniums, tenor and string bass.

Too bad. Back in the day, the Finale was the next best thing to....

 

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Stay away for a year and then try again. nt, posted on January 18, 2015 at 11:39:43
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nt

 

RE: Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning...., posted on January 18, 2015 at 12:54:33
Amphissa
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I too used to love the 2nd and 3rd. But I burned out on Mahler a few years ago. For me, it was all the marching. Every symphony -- march, march, left, right, march, march. In 2014, I literally listened to a Mahler symphony only once. It did not re-inspire me. Maybe someday I'll feel like marching again. haha


"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

An extremely important early milestone in Mahler's personal development, posted on January 18, 2015 at 13:06:59
John Marks
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Was when as a tyke he was allowed to leave the house and wander around the public square. When (as it appears happened regularly), a military brass band went marching by, little Gustav would fall in behind them and--march.

BTW, Mahler's first musical instrument was--the "piano accordion," which is perhaps why there are no works for solo piano among Mahler's mature works.

BTW2, I believe that John Williams is indebted to one of more of Mahler's march movements, perhaps most likely from the Sixth symphony, for the Star Wars musical cue of the white-suited storm troupers marching in.

Yes, I am pretty burned out on the numbered symphonies except 5, 6, 9, and maybe 10, but the song cycles still grab me, and I am just knocked over by the recently unearthed 1964 live Vienna DLvdE with Fritz Wunderlich and believe it or not Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. It is a white-hot revelation.

ATB,

JM

 

RE: An extremely important early milestone in Mahler's personal development, posted on January 18, 2015 at 14:16:11
Amphissa
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Whatever the excuse for all that marching, it just became tiresome for me. I've (seriously) thought about playing the symphonies without the march movements, but I've never been much motivated. I've got a very large hoard of CDs, SACDs, LPs and DVDs of Mahler, if I ever get the urge to return. For now, he's not on my play list.

Yes, DLvdE. Some parts are very fine indeed. I haven't listened to it in awhile. I do enjoy voice with orchestra, but I most often turn to other composers -- Chausson's "Poème de l'amour et de la mer", Martucci's "La canzone dei ricordi", Rachmaninoff's "The Bells" and "Spring" cantata, Ravel's "Shéhérazade", Strauss' "Vier letzte Lieder", etc. I suppose I should unearth my recordings of DLvdE.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Just as Wagner's writing music was the continuation of political revolution by other means..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 14:21:15
John Marks
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Just as Wagner's writing music was the continuation of political revolution by other means, Mahler's writing of music was the continuation of a spiritual quest (or a continuation of psychotherapy) by other means.

That's why you get "Frère Jacques," Klezmerim, and marching band music--like them or not.

IMHO.

JM

 

And here I am just starting and transfixed by the 4th, posted on January 18, 2015 at 14:21:47
Sibelius
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Currently Chailly/Bonney/RCO as well as Fischer/Persson/BFO.

 

RE: Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning...., posted on January 18, 2015 at 14:40:05
John N
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Ironically, I had a harder time getting into the second then any of the other Mahler symphonies. For me it remains my least loved Mahler.

By contrast, I still can't get enough of the 3rd, and am continuing my appreciation (slow in coming) of 7

 

Sorry you discovered Mahler way too early.., posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:24:24
Ivan303
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OTOH, I lacked the emotional maturity to appreciate Mahler until late in life.

Lucky me.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: And here I am just starting and transfixed by the 4th, posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:33:07
goldenthal
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Sibelius:

I don't think burn-out is unique to Mahler. Brian Cheney (may he rest in peace) once mentioned burning himself out on Beethoven Op. 132 (seems almost impossible to me) when he was a young man. Now in my declining years, I have tried all my life to avoid over-exposure to those pieces I love the best; I hold them in my heart and play them when I am (almost) desperate for a fix, which can even so be somewhat often.

Among my favourite pieces are Mahler's 2d and 4th, the last movement of the 3d, the songs (especially Ruekert lieder), and Das Lied von der Erde. Mahler's 4th, to me, is one of the most naturally flowing, "inevitable" from 1st note to last, pieces I know. Its slow movement is extraordinary! May I commend to your attention performances by Levine, Kletzky and Kubelik.


Enjoy!


Jeremy

 

RE: Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning...., posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:35:44
fantja
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Burned-out perhaps? Take a year off then return to it.

 

RE: An extremely important early milestone in Mahler's personal development, posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:36:35
goldenthal
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Wow! what a combination of voices!

John: how do you feel about the conducting?


Jeremy

 

I think that given the circumstances (live radio from a summer but indoor festival) it's suprisingly good, posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:44:49
John Marks
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I surmise or assume that FW wanted (a) to banish or at least add nuance to his image of a pretty boy who sang Mozart and sentimental German semi-pop songs of the Talkies movie era and (b) put all the chips down, in view of whom he was sharing the stage with.

Mission accomplished. Zo, the conducting is almost beside the point.

But I think that it is very good.

More info at the link.

jm

 

Sad? I'm tired of Mozart. Look on the bright side. , posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:51:53
andy evans
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I can't take Mozart any more.

Trying to explore Berg so it's not all bad......

 

RE: I think that given the circumstances (live radio from a summer but indoor festival) it's suprisingly good, posted on January 18, 2015 at 15:53:48
goldenthal
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Thank you, John -- I just ordered it. I'll let you know!


Jeremy

 

Although I like the 2nd. . . , posted on January 18, 2015 at 16:12:55
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. . . I've always been slightly ambivalent about it. Maybe it has something to do with Mahler's reach exceeding his grasp in this work (similar to his problem in the 8th)? Or maybe it's all my fault - I'm not worthy! (Or maybe I'm hearing too much Hans Rott in it! LOL!) My favorite performance is now the recent Chailly/LGO blu-ray. (I know you used to love the Bernstein recordings.) But overall, my favorite Mahler symphonies are 3, 5, 6 and 7 - my patience for all the marching has not yet been exhausted! ;-)

 

DUUH! Sorry I forgot to mention, but these should be no surprise, posted on January 18, 2015 at 17:51:11
John Marks
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Hi-

I mentioned that it was a radio tape. While it is NOT an off-the-air tape, back then, AFAIK there was no stereo radio broadcasting in Europe. So the radio archival tape, long since lost and forgotten, was a recording of the same mono mix that was broadcast.

In the run-up to the Centenary of Mahler's death, somehow the dubbed copy made for the conductor that was in the Krips family archives came to the attention of DG, hence this CD release.

Now, seeing as it was a ref for the conductor (who perhaps never actually listened to it) I am rather confident it was duped at 2X running speed, my guess would be 7.5 ips, duped at 15 ips.

So, it required restoration that DG claims to be quite proud of. I am listening via a streaming service, and it sounds good enough to me--for what it is and how important it is to me.

It appears that the only tape running was for the Austrian radio service, IOW, the Vienna Philharmonic did not archive it--perhaps their crew had the summer off... . So there was no VPO archive tape, which I assume by 1964 would have been stereo.

I think it was Aquinas who paraphrased Aristotle to the effect that the slenderest knowledge of divine things was preferable to certainty about mundane things.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

jm

 

IMO, Mahler's Best Symphony Was....., posted on January 18, 2015 at 18:07:52
Todd Krieger
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....his first one..... By a mile.........

 

RE: Sad? I'm tired of Mozart. Look on the bright side. , posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:02:12
josh358
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Dude, that violates a law of nature!

 

RE: IMO, Mahler's Best Symphony Was....., posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:02:56
josh358
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Glad to know it isn't just me. :-)

 

You don't get it. There are indeed finer things in life, but tiring of the Mahler 2nd is like tiring of..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:49:55
deep-fried meat, Brian De Palma films, and erections.

One knows that life is over. : )

 

I don't get Mozart yet, so maybe there's hope. (Though I'm transfixed by Karajan's mono Cosi, posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:51:07
I finally understand why R Strauss idolized Mozart.

 

Discovered Mahler's 2nd in College; my first taste. Solti's CSO lp set marked down to $6.99 at Wherehouse. nt, posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:52:35
/

 

Do you know Adler's? Picked it up on Harmonia Mundi and was blown away~, posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:55:30
OMG, when Mahler finally lets loose with the chorale in the 4th mov't, it's absolute ecstasy.

I don't know of a more vivid 1st mov't either. Esp before the little creatures arrive.

Every dept of the orchestra is on their collective toes, and the sense of discovery is a wonder to behold.

 

That's a big find! I wonder if there are any bootleg lp's of this! nt, posted on January 18, 2015 at 19:58:28
.

 

Always loved the exquisite climax of the 3rd mov't and only now getting into the other mov'ts listening to , posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:04:00
Walter's 41 (?) with the NY Phil on Columbia.

Not to sound like an old fart--nothing but the latest digital recordings would do it for me--but earlier conductors seem much more in tune with Mahler's "woodsy," un-varnished sound world, which makes everything before and after the "good parts" more interesting.

You ought to hear what Walter does with the 4th's 2nd mov't!

 

RE: Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning...., posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:38:32
Logan
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I endorse the "stay away for a while" recommendation. The first Mahler work I ever heard was the Kindertoten Lieder (Songs on the Death of Children) in live concert with Gerard Souzay singing, and I was hooked on Mahler's music forever.

But for some 16 years sfter 1972 - the year my first child was born - I could not listen to this cycle. The words and music resonated so personally that the agony was unbearable. So I put it aside. When my offspring were no longer children I returned to it with no difficulty and now I listen to it as often as I listen to the other Mahler works, which is often. The power of the expression is still there, but the message is no longer personal and the anguish not so vivid.

My favorite Mahler work is the one I am listening to at the time, although I do have twice as many versions of Das Lied as anything else - perhaps because the perfect performance has yet to be performed. Several come close. (And nothing surprising about DFD doing the lower-voice part - he recorded it at least twice, for Kletski and Bernstein). It does please me though that more and more listeners are coming to appreciate the 7th Symphony, a work that was once regarded as the turkey in the Mahler collection. I adored it the first time I heard it and continue to do so. No burn-out there. And I can still handle all the marching.

 

No it does not, posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:50:30
Penguin
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Mozart is that teacher's pet little S.H.I.T. you always hated in school because he pointed out every single one of your inadequacies. You recognize he is way smarter than you are, and he is just toying with you all the time. There is only one piece from Mozart i can listen to without feeling that way. The rest just makes me mad.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

The 7th is a favorite of mine as well. Very glad I enjoyed it before reading that I should have., posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:53:54
Sorry, before reading that I should have...*not.* I never thought about compositional "unity" when I was 15. Just give me some good trumpet chorales, a vivid bass drum and some deep pipe organ notes.

The "moonlight" music 3/4's of the way thru the first mov't is so gorgeous and evocative.

So many conductors blast right through this stretch, including Kubelik which is sad, as he's so good with the rest.

I went through a 7th obsession awhile back. The Bernstein 1 really gets the end of the 1st mov't right, but--if I dare say--the NY Phil's strings are a little ragged in the lovelier parts.

I know it's not healthy, but I'm still mesmerized by Sinopoli's with the Philharmonia.

Just recently I sat down and listened to Haitink's 2nd go, a very early digital recording which was surprising in two way: the sound is gorgeous, as is the playing; and I have to say--Haitink seems to really get the pacing right in the first mov't.

 

Interesting, before hearing Kubelik's '79, I always likened Mahler's first symphony to the 1812 Overture. nt, posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:59:18
.

 

RE: You don't get it. There are indeed finer things in life, but tiring of the Mahler 2nd is like tiring of..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 22:06:22
Analog Scott
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I am glad that hasn't happened to me. Hope you get over it.

 

Thank., posted on January 18, 2015 at 23:54:01
kavakidd
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YOO! Luv it! Perfect!
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

Me, posted on January 18, 2015 at 23:54:39
kavakidd
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too
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

Anything is possible, but... I think that very unlikely, posted on January 19, 2015 at 07:08:02
John Marks
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I assume that when you say bootleg you mean an unauthorized and surreptitious recording made in the hall on portable amateur or home recording equipment. In 1964 that would mean a small Japanese reel to reel recorder, or, perhaps with very lax security or a blind eye on the part of some hall employee, a NAGRA portable broadcast recorder.

I think that if there was a tape and if someone had gone to the trouble of pressing LPs (rather than just cutting a few acetates for friends) then that performance would have been known to the worldwide Mahler community as a very rare but existing document.

The perhaps more-likely scenario that did not come to pass, in view of the disappearance of the first-generation Austrian radio broadcast tape, is that an employee or someone with access to the vaults "borrowed" the first-generation tape, used it to cut acetates to make LP stampers, and then forgot to return the tape. But that obviously never happened.

I take DG at their word that this is in effect a totally new discovery, that, but for the Krips family's holding on to everything from Maestro Krips' career, would have been lost forever.

Of course, I would have wanted the tapes processed with Plangent Processing, but, you can't have everything.

jm

 

That's been my reaction too., posted on January 19, 2015 at 08:47:23
Paul_A
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It struck me a training piece for what was to follow. I'll check out the Kubelik.

 

RE: Came to a profoundly sad realization this morning...., posted on January 19, 2015 at 08:50:19
It happens. If you played in mediocre high school (or younger) orchestras and bands, you have a list of pieces it is hard to listen to without wincing, starting with Elgar's first Pomp and Circumstance march. You need to give your ears a rest from this music.

I even made up lyrics to some of these overplayed warhorses, in the manner of "This is the symphony that Schubert wrote but never finished ..."

See if you can recognize the rhythm of this well known piece (hint: it's chamber music): "Please play that Brahms no more, I cannot stomach it."

 

The nice thing about aging is wait a few years and it'll be fresh, all over again! nt, posted on January 19, 2015 at 09:09:36
tinear
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fds

 

RE: I don't get Mozart yet, so maybe there's hope. (Though I'm transfixed by Karajan's mono Cosi, posted on January 19, 2015 at 09:16:16
josh358
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If you do one thing in life, learn to appreciate Mozart! You'll wonder how anyone could exist without having done so.

 

Or you'll be dead and won't give a &$%# [nt], posted on January 19, 2015 at 10:58:39
Amphissa
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.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

He should shoot for two: the first is easy, the Second, well...N/T, posted on January 19, 2015 at 11:28:32
musetap
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N/T
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: DUUH! Sorry I forgot to mention, but these should be no surprise, posted on January 19, 2015 at 13:58:58
goldenthal
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Fair enough, JM! Besides, I agree with you and Aquinas. Furthermore, mono doesn't bother me -- in fact, in the early 60s a mono version often sounded better than a stereo release of the same performance.

Thanks for your information. I eagerly await hearing the disc when it arrives.


Jeremy

 

You mean like becoming a connoisseur of Pont l’Eveque? , posted on January 19, 2015 at 18:40:32
Penguin
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First you have to get over the smell the rest is easy? Surely there is a better way to enjoy things.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Well, in the meantime, I suppose I could listen to Naxos' 27 Volumes of the Dittersdorf Recorder Concerti. : ) nt, posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:13:30
.

 

RE: You mean like becoming a connoisseur of Pont l’Eveque? , posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:17:53
josh358
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I wouldn't know, since I'm told I loved Mozart before I could walk.

 

RE: No it does not, posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:20:30
josh358
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Dude, just listen to the music.

 

I've always found the back end of the 2nd to be a hard slog., posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:23:06
Daverz
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I've always found the back end of the 2nd to be a hard slog. I don't have a problem with the even longer 3rd until about halfway into the last movement, which seems interminable.

 

Used to be my favorite part: the ffffff gong-thwack heralds it in, then the opening of the graves...., posted on January 20, 2015 at 07:21:10
the funeral march that follows gets a bit tedious and headache inducing, (Klemp takes it slow), then the Final Destruction, then those great off-stage trumpet fanfares (Mahler said he worked so hard to get the right effect), then the two heavenly chorales with the soprano breaking away, and so on.

I have to admit: the first entry of organ peddle in the last pages still gets me--Bernstein (or his DGG engineer) makes sure it's earth-shaking. So surprised others blend it in.

Mahler said he wanted to use it elsewhere in the symphony but didn't; in order to blow people away at the end.

 

ah there lies the issue, posted on January 20, 2015 at 20:53:35
Penguin
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we were introduces way after i learned to like other kinds of music. My old friend Mihaly Virizlay of the BSO ,when he was still alive tried to get me to like Mozart, he failed. Since he is gone, every once in a while in his memory, i try to like Mozart...just cannot get over the attitude.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thats what does it :), posted on January 20, 2015 at 20:55:13
Penguin
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It comes through all the time. He is just snarky. I am beyond hope when it comes to liking his music. I recognize the greatness of it, just do not like it.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: ah there lies the issue, posted on January 21, 2015 at 05:50:45
josh358
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Well, Mozart wanted to be loved for his talent. Can you blame him? His father famously wept when he played the second violin part in a string quartet without ever having played the violin. Think about what it means to have such a talent as a child, and to be exhibited and fawned over as a result. I'm just grateful that he had that talent, and that in his tragically brief life he wrote so many great works. I think it would be a poor world indeed if no one were a better musician than I am, or brain surgeon or bricklayer!

And don't forget too that according to contemporary accounts, he studied and practiced very hard to accomplish what he did -- without that, mere talent goes nowhere. The notion that he created music without thought and revision, as if by magic, was partly marketing on his part, and partly fabrication by others.

 

RE: Thats what does it :), posted on January 21, 2015 at 05:57:30
josh358
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Well, yes, it's true, but think of it this way: If a beautiful women were showing you the amazing things she could do with her tongue, would you worry about whether she was showing off or just go along for the ride?

Another way to think about it: One day, when Mozart was improvising sublimely for a group of friends, he broke off, jumped up on a table, and started meowing. They say he and Haydn were like children together. He really was a wonderful man.

 

I just can't take the endless resolutions to the tonic, posted on January 21, 2015 at 06:32:17
andy evans
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It comes through all the time. He is just snarky. I am beyond hope when it comes to liking his music. I recognize the greatness of it, just do not like it.>>

I just can't take the endless resolutions to the tonic.

Off we go on some nice exploration of a theme, and then By George, there's a trill and a 5-1 cadence. Back home again.

When I go out I want to STAY out - like go to the park, look around, have a beer, go on holiday.

Mozart is like being housebound. Whoa! That's me again folks, coming back up the drive again.

 

Interesting analogy, posted on January 21, 2015 at 10:22:37
Penguin
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but i need to be able to make a connection with the person through the interaction, and Mozart's music prevents me from that, too much of a technologist, i have to be constantly on the edge to keep up with him, i feel being pushed along as opposed to be drawn in. I had a friend who was a sublime mathematician, he could marvel at the beauty of an equation, to me it was scribbles, or i had to work hard for a day to solve it, never got any enjoyment out of it. Like in your analogy, that tongue sometimes gets in the way :).

As far as Amadeus as a person, he might have been totally detached from what is projected in his music. We will not know it for certain.

dee
;-D


True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

This is one of the downsides we have to easy access, posted on January 21, 2015 at 16:22:16
TGR
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Before the LP era, hearing something like the Mahler 2 was an event - it had to be experienced live (not an everyday event) or there might have been a 78 set or two, but those would have been a nightmare to play.

Now we can access just about anything we want anytime we want. The advantage is that we have gotten to know music really well and a wide variety of it as well - we have all heard Mahler's symphonies more time than he ever did.

The bad news is that we become jaded. I remember reading an interview with Bonyngne a number of years ago, where he said he hadn't heard Beethoven's 5th in something like 30 years (clearly it was not a piece in his repertoire) and he was bowled over by it....that's the impact it should have, not an everyday thing.

A number of years ago I heard MTT give the 2nd live, in one of the concerts that formed a basis for his recording. It brought tears to my eyes, something that doesn't happen to me often.

 

RE: Interesting analogy, posted on January 21, 2015 at 17:24:43
josh358
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Mozart is a difficult composer, but his music wouldn't be so great if he weren't! Anyway, in my experience, the key to appreciating a difficult composer is to listen to lots of his work (and music in a similar style). At some point it all clicks, and then you're in nirvana.

That being said, most experienced Mozart listeners will say that one of the remarkable things about Mozart is that his music *doesn't* seem forced or difficult, but seems to proceed naturally. It's artifice, of course, but he was the great master of it, as well as having a special affinity for the human voice, and probably the greatest melodist of all time (no accident that Tchaikovsky worshipped him). Maybe you're listening too analytically, trying too hard?

I think we know a lot about his character, his life was well documented and his letters are very revealing. He was ("Amadeus" notwithstanding) a serious man, with however a fun side. Sociable, somewhat childish, brilliant and witty, irresponsible, expressive and emotional, somewhat show-offish (think Leonard Bernstein), with an unfortunate tendency to badmouth rival composers but by the same token expressing enthusiasm and admiration for great ones like Haydn and Bach. He would gladly play for hours for those who wanted to listen. Contemporaries say that you had to hear him work out his ideas at the keyboard to appreciate the depth of his genius. And of course, through most of the career we know, he was young. He starts to mature as well all do at 30 and that of course can be heard in his music.

All in all, a wonderful man.

 

That is cool, posted on January 21, 2015 at 21:12:03
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And I knew most of that, I read his biography, have tons of his music, and the only piece i actually enjoy from him is the Requiem, because it is so different. And i really have to be in the mood for even thatt, The rest, i could sell and never miss it. Just like you will never make me lament about the inner beauty of tensor math or the glory of the Maxwell equation. Good riddance i was so happy when i finally passed all the exams 30+ years ago, and was even happier when i learned that there is software for all that stuff.

Mozart is like that for me, I know his genius is towering over his generation, but for me it is hard work, just like math was in college, i practiced it enough i got it, passed the exam, with an A mind you, then had a drunken night with all my fellow sufferers and promptly forgot it all.

You kinda sound like my electrical science professor way back then, getting almost teary eyed when he explained to us that the Maxwell equations can describe any wave form! Not just electricity!.Ha!... and then he promptly started into optical phenomena, and how the lights of distant starts can be described around things and how the Maxwell equations explained some esoteric fringe aspect of the whole thing, while I was busy scribbling all his hap hazard equations down and wondering if the second line had div as opposed rot. He was frenetic...Then he just turned to us and asked "isn't this magnificent?" we all looked at him in disbelief, he threw the chalk on the desk and ran out mumbling that we were just cattle, and he should not be subjected to morons like us. Guess what was one of the exam questions...explain the phenomena on the surface of an optical flat using the Maxwell equations. 50% of the class never knew that an optical flat is used for surface flatness measurements using interference patterns. I was lucky. Back in the eighties i was still reluctant to buy cassettes with Maxwell printed on them, but they sounded better than most.

Me disliking Mozart does not make hime any lesser of a musical giant, just as me disliking Maxwell does not make him any less important in engineering, heck without him we would not be able to have this exchange, but i still shudder when i have to write his name.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thanks, posted on January 21, 2015 at 21:15:35
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You made me laugh

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Uh. . . comparing Mozart's manuscripts with Beethoven's. . . , posted on January 21, 2015 at 21:31:53
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. . . the Mozart manuscripts show relatively little editing or revision, with some exceptions, such as the C-minor Piano Concerto, K. 491, which shows struggle amidst his "dark thoughts". I must say that although I do like many of Mozart's works, there are others which just sound (to me at least) facile.

 

I was there for MTT's Mahler 2nd, 7th and 8th as well as RCA's recording of Stravinsky's Rite, posted on January 21, 2015 at 23:45:32
Isn't hard to believe? Mahler never heard his 9th, 10th or Das Lied?

 

You see?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 07:06:29
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I can barely make a three line asylum post without a few major edits, he wrote whole operas without a single one, my mind just does not work that way, and his music forces me into that precise tedium that i abhor :). I marvel at his ability to do work like that,but still cannot like it :).


dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

MTT Mahler live, posted on January 22, 2015 at 08:17:42
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I was in the audience for the sessions that resulted in the recordings of 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, DLVDE, and the Adagio from the 10th. I have seen MTT conduct 1 and 6 as well, but after the recordings were made. He split his violins left and right for the recordings but not for non-recorded performances -interesting choice. I have also seen him perform the Rite but was not present at the recording.

The time I saw him perform the 1st he was also supposed to do a movement from Rott's Symphony; unfortunately this was replaced with Mahler lieder. While I enjoy Mahler lieder, performances of the Rott symphony (a work I highly recommend) are rare.

 

RE: That is cool, posted on January 22, 2015 at 08:29:08
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I loved tensors. And Maxwell's equations do have a remarkable elegance to them! But I was never really interested in the working out of problems of the kind you mentioned. Tended to snooze through those parts of the lecture. OTOH, while my formal musical training is limited to childhood piano lessons, I find music theory fascinating and could learn it endlessly. Perhaps because it connects to something that I love?

Which I guess brings me to the disconnect I'm sensing here. As intriguing as I find tensors, I experience them as mathematical abstractions, brain teasers of a kind. Music of course is equally mathematical, and can be approached as math. But as a non-musician I experience it intuitively and emotionally. They miracle of music -- that broken symmetries can make us soar and cry!

Sure, if I look at the notes on the page I see thirds and fifths and tonics and subdominants, and time signatures and keys and leading tones. But those are usually the last things on my mind when I listen.

So maybe I'm misreading this, I almost get the sense that you're struggling to listen analytically, rather than letting your intuition do the lifting. In my experience with difficult works or difficult composers with whom I'm not particularly familiar, the best thing to do is just to listen repeatedly until it clicks. I had to do that with Brahms, to whom I had little exposure growing up; his works sounded like noise to me when I first listened to them. And I also had to do it with unusually difficult works by composers with whom I was familiar, like the Missa Solemnis. For me, the learning process had nothing to do with conscious analysis, or a struggle to understand.

Certainly, for someone who mastered E&M (even if he then forgot it (not that it isn't there in cold storage, ready to be resurrected if you ever need it), this isn't a question of adequate brain power! I think you may be applying the wrong part of your brain, or perhaps being too frustrated by the fact that the works won't yield their riches right away, as the works of lesser composers do.

 

RE: Uh. . . comparing Mozart's manuscripts with Beethoven's. . . , posted on January 22, 2015 at 08:46:03
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Yeah, but I've read that Mozart destroyed his sketches to bolster his image.

None of this is to discount his astounding musical gifts, to which there is much attestation. But the belief that many have, owing in part to a letter from Mozart that's now known to be a fabrication in which he supposedly claimed that his works came to him in a flash of inspiration, that he saw everything in his head and just wrote it down is an exaggeration.

I think the facile works are basically either works written when he was young, which unfortunately is most of what we have from Mozart -- there was enormous emotional and musical growth after he turned 30 -- or pleasant works that he churned out in vast quantities to pay the rent an that have nuggets of genius that he didn't have time to work out. Really, if you look at the youthful works of most great composers, you'll see a similar pattern -- flashes of genius along with musical immaturity and a style that's still heavily dependent on that of established composers. When you get to the great period you're hearing another Mozart altogether, and this Mozart is anything but facile, even in lighthearted works like The Magic Flute or Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.

 

Didn't Constanze receive notification. . . , posted on January 22, 2015 at 11:47:12
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. . . just a couple of days after Mozart died, that he had finally gotten the position at St. Stephen's? To me, this is one of the biggest disasters in the history of music. We can only imagine what he would have composed in such a position! How many more works of the quality of the C-minor Mass or the Requiem? Unbelievable!

OTOH, I do cringe at some of that Papageno/Papagena stuff in The Magic Flute. ;-)

 

RE: Didn't Constanze receive notification. . . , posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:07:07
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Really. The loss is incalculable. Who knows what heights he would have reached had his development continued?

Hey, I like the Papageno/Papagena stuff. :-)

 

Instructions For You, posted on January 22, 2015 at 14:00:56
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1. Keep listening to music all the time. Don't hold off for a special time of week, set aside specifically for exclusive music listening, as a celebration of music, and even a quasi-religious experience [such as the Sabbath once a week - not ever minute of every day]. In that way, you'll use up your interest in music rapidly. You may then move on to EDM, rap, etc. Get with it.

2. Don't stop. Keep listening to the rest of Mahler over and over and over. That way, you can get sick of all of him, as the other poster here's suggested.

3. Make sure you've got earbud implanted to your skull 24/7/365, with music playing. It doesn't matter if you actually attend to every bar. Just keep it blasting into your brain.

4. If you follow these instruction, you'll get sick of actual music eventually, and then you may become a real person and go 100% for EDM/rap/etc., as noted above.

Keep up the good work.

 

Profound?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 14:06:27
Mike Porper
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I havent' listened to the Mahler 2nd in decades. Not it, nor a bunch of other pieces.

Why?

Because I consider it, and some other pieces, the greatest music every created. Listening to it is something...SPECIAL.

I don't cheapen, trivialize, and ultimately debase and profane the music and my experience of it by hearing it all of the time.

 

: ) Will do. nt, posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:02:56
.

 

We're you there the night the poor "posthorn" soloist (M7) flubbed so many notes??, posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:07:26
I felt SO bad for the guy. Absolutely destroyed the opening of the 1st mov't.

MTT didn't miss a beat, but the audience got dead quiet.

At least something made the cough drop brigade shush up.

 

Never had issues with complex music, posted on January 22, 2015 at 20:07:02
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Take for example the Bartok String quartets, I cannot think anything much more complex than that, and that music just grabs me drags me along for the jagged ride beats me up messes up my brain and spits me out on the other end exhausted from the experience, and i did not once stop to think about the complexity because i connect with the soul of the music on an emotional level. I never managed to get to Mozart that way, just when i get close to it he gets into some snarky crap that drags me out of the emotional experience and makes me concentrate on the sudden WTF or some other crap. Like being taken for a tango, just to be kicked in the groin. :). I cannot explain why. I am not trying to follow scores, i suck at it anyway, or analyze the structure of his music, he shoves his stuff in my face when i least expect it, and i hate that.

That is why he and i never will get along :) But that is cool, i do not have to like him for him to be great, Don't even ask me what i think of Tchaikovsky :).

edit: One more analogy. I know how much skill and design and ingenuity goes making a a Louis VIX curved side commode it is mind boggling, and i know what it takes to make a George Nakashima or James Krenov piece or the rocker of Sam Malouf. The later pieces may look simpler, but could not have been made in the time of Louis VIX, furniture making had to evolve to that point. And you know what I would never want to own a Louis VIX piece, i cannot stand the way they look :).Gladly would have any of the mid century masterpieces.

dee
;-D



True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: Never had issues with complex music, posted on January 23, 2015 at 07:56:09
josh358
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Well, actually, I don't much like Tchaikovsky either. Great melodist but his understanding of structure was rudimentary, to say the least. I think he's at is best in relatively unstructured works like the Nutcracker.

I think Mozart's work is far more complex than Bartok's. It's the complexity of genius -- maybe profundity or intellectual depth would be a better word. Or what a professor of mine once referred to as the "density of ideas." A superficially simple work can contain far more information than a superficially complex one.

The curious thing is that you seem to be reacting to some of the very features of Mozart's music that I most love about it! Those rabbit-out-of-the-hat moments seem to me the essence of great music. Anyone can write music that's predictable. To do something that's new and clever and works so brilliantly that you can't imagine how it could have been done differently is a very rare gift. When I hit one of those moments in Mozart, I get chills down my spine. With someone like Wagner, you wait maybe 15 minutes for a great idea. With Mozart, particularly the late Mozart, the flow of ideas is constant. By the time he's reached his peak with Don Giovanni, the flow of genius is so overwhelming that you're held in some kind of trance or rapture for hours. It's hard to imagine what would have happened had he lived, it almost feels like the human mind couldn't survive anything greater. The only other composer who has that effect on me is Bach.

 

hmm, posted on January 23, 2015 at 17:33:19
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We are not comparing apples to orangutans :). To me complexity in Mozart's music is like interior of a rococo church there is all this stuff everywhere and Bartok is more like a building architected by Frank Ghery. But there is 200 years of evolution in music that took place between the two of them.

It would be a better brain teaser to imagine that a genius like Mozart was born around the turn of the 20th century and had the clarified ideas and the diversity to draw on like Bartok and Stravinsky had, what kind of music would that be?

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: hmm, posted on January 24, 2015 at 11:41:12
Jack D II
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I have Bersteins box of the Mahler symphonies. The sound seems acceptable and the music also, but I'm not knowledgible at all about the preferred version(s). Help?

 

Well, as they said in "Vertigo", "Mozart's the boy for you!", posted on January 25, 2015 at 16:04:23
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But I think many would disagree with you that Tchaikovsky's understanding of structure was "rudimentary". Speaking for myself, I would rather hear just about any Tchaikovsky symphony than any Mozart symphony. Can you summarize your understanding of structure? (BTW, this is not a trick question - just trying to understand your assertions.)

I agree with you that anyone can write music that's predictable - and Mozart himself wrote a lot of it!

 

ugh, posted on January 25, 2015 at 19:00:43
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I am not the guy to ask. never claimed to be a Mahler aficionado :).

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: Well, as they said in "Vertigo", "Mozart's the boy for you!", posted on January 25, 2015 at 19:13:07
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Hi Chris,

That's a tall order, for two reasons. One is that this is primarily something that I hear, not something that I intellectualize. The other is that even with my very limited knowledge of musicology, a summary of my understanding would be pretty darn long! But see this colorful analysis of the finale of the Jupiter Symphony to see a clear example of the kind of thing I'm talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._41_%28Mozart%29

And also Grove's very perceptive comments. Tchaikovsky was a master of melody and harmony, but as I believe we've discussed before, Brahms mystified him and he couldn't hear the genius in Bach. I think that sophisticated structure was the forte of the Germans, after the Renaissance, at any rate. Tchaikovsky's peculiar genius lay elsewhere.

 

RE: hmm, posted on January 25, 2015 at 19:26:18
josh358
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That's a very interesting question and one I've asked myself many times. I tend to think that a 20th century Mozart would have wasted his genius as Schoenberg did. Genius never exists apart from culture, and the culture of the early 20th century wasn't conducive to writing great music. The modernist idiom was too limiting, consisting as it does essentially of a thoughtless rejectionism that reduces ultimately to the freedom to do anything that hasn't been shown to work. Which, unfortunately, omits everything that has been shown to! Since music isn't arbitrary, but is heavily constrained by physics, mathematics, and human perception and psychology, the freedom to screech, moan, and wail wasn't freedom at all.

 

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