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Who does the best Sibelius?

69.137.5.160
Posted on January 12, 2015 at 02:38:25
Jack D II
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 I like his music but dont care to buy a lot of different conductors/orchestras to find the best. I have a box of the symphonies by Abravanel/Utah Symphony but dont have anything to measure it against. Is there a box of the symphonies that's better? What about the rest of his music?

 

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Stick to the Scandinavians - don't go South of those, posted on January 12, 2015 at 05:04:56
andy evans
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 Sibelius is Finnish. He lived in a cold climate in a house close to the woods, very much in the heart of nature. He was intensely nationalistic, and the culture and legends of Finland meant a lot to him. I lived in Norway myself for 6 years, and it's a very distinctive and different culture. It has a feel to it, and Sibelius is big on atmosphere. In my Sibelius I want to FEEL that Scandinavian atmosphere - the deep woods, the snowstorms, the darkness and also the joy of summer, flowers and daylight.

You will find a whole heap of conductors and orchestras who will play the music in the European symphonic tradition - Bermstein, Maazel, Szell, Karajan etc etc. They mostly ratchet up the excitement and play to the climaxes. I would give them a very wide berth.

For some real Scandinavian atmosphere, try the Scandinavians or the next best thing - Russians, Estonians and the like. I like Segestam for instance. I find Berglund rather bland, so not him, but plenty of others these days since there's a strong conducting tradition in Finland largely led by Jorma Panula.

 

Paavo Berglund and Osma Vanska are very good, posted on January 12, 2015 at 06:22:19
John Marks
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And Eugene Ormandy is historically important.

Arkivmusic.com has good editorial content.

JM

PS: Vanska was re-recording all the symphonies with the Minnesota Orchestra when it blew apart and sank. Those SACDs also are highly regarded but the consensus seems to be that his earlier Finnish set is overall better.

 

Second Vanska...., posted on January 12, 2015 at 07:23:52
Ivan303
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 Was lucky to hear him live, conducting Sibelius' Sixth with the San Francisco Symphony just a year ago this month.

A revelation, to say the least.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Third Vanska, posted on January 12, 2015 at 09:55:10
Bob Neill
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 Only one who can do magic with him w/o being romantic.

 

Fun Fact about Paavo Berglund, posted on January 12, 2015 at 10:36:45
Chris from Lafayette
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 He was a leftie! No, I don't mean on the political spectrum (although, who knows, maybe he was!). I mean he was left handed and conducted that way! Pace Andy below, I find Berglund's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies to be tremendous: talk about someone with a very DETAILED knowledge of the score (including the mistakes which have crept in to various printings), that would be Paavo for sure! He recorded three separate cycles over the years: one each with the Bournemouth Symphony, the Helsinki Philharmonic, and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. I think the earliest of these (the one with the Bournemouth Symphony) is the best: it has that "golden age" EMI sound quality - so satisfying and natural. The Helsinki recordings sound a bit more congested (except for one - the Seventh? can't remember right now - which was recorded in London, rather than Helsinki). And the COE recordings are a special case, which trade the tonal depth of a large string body (absolutely essential to the Sibelius sound world IMHO) for additional clarity of texture - very well recorded BTW, as was pointed out in Stereophile (I think by JM - John, is that right?).

I do like the Vänskä/Lahti recordings too and agree with the good notices from Ivan303 and Bob Neill below. I also find the Karajan/BPO recordings very attractive - either on DG or EMI (now Warner).

When you start getting away from complete sets, there are some truly outstanding recordings of the individual symphonies, such as the Mravinsky Seventh (one of the greatest recordings of anything IMHO), or the extremely powerful Levine/BPO recordings (which seem to be under the radar for many listeners) of the Fourth and Fifth.

EDIT: here's an embedded YT video showing Paavo's left-handed technique:

 

RE: Fun Fact about Paavo Berglund, posted on January 12, 2015 at 11:27:12
Jack D II
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 Thanks all.

 

Just saw over on SA-CD.net that Vänskä is resuming his Sibelius cycle. . . , posted on January 12, 2015 at 12:33:56
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . with the Minnesota Orchestra. Next sessions (Symphonies 3, 6 and 7) are set for the May/June time frame. I guess there's some question as to how the personnel of the orchestra may have changed since the protracted strike/lockout or whatever that mess was.

 

Yes, I love the COE recordings and they sound phenomenal, posted on January 12, 2015 at 13:19:26
John Marks
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 The late lamented Sam Tellig gave one of them (5 & 7 I think) an R2D4 a few years back.

john

PS: I urged Jerry Bruck to buy that CD and after he listened a bit he said "Damn that Tony Faulkner" I think obviously, that Faulkner made so few strings sound so rich.

 

RE: Just saw over on SA-CD.net that Vänskä is resuming his Sibelius cycle. . . , posted on January 12, 2015 at 13:41:22
Bob Neill
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 My comments refer to the Lahti Orchestral recordings.

 

RE: Who does the best Sibelius?, posted on January 12, 2015 at 14:19:03
amioutaline?
 Symphony #2 only but what a performance!

 

Sam Tellig - late, lamented?, posted on January 12, 2015 at 15:36:01
TGR
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 Has Sam (Tom) passed on?

 

From the masthead of SP, as far as I know that's all? /n, posted on January 12, 2015 at 15:43:21
Ivan303
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 n


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Fear not, he's alive and kicking, posted on January 12, 2015 at 16:12:26
John Marks
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 He emailed me today.

jm

 

He Loved Swans, posted on January 12, 2015 at 16:27:28
Mike Porper
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 He really did.

HIP's have gotten their distorting hands on Sibelius lately. So, in order to be historically informed and politically correct, you have to:

a] own a swan

b] have a swan near you when you listen to Sibelius

c] never attend any Sibelius concerts where there aren't any swans, cause those are corrupt, modern profanations of a true historically informed performance

d] lacking any of the above, at least claim to like swans, too, and keep a picture of some nearby

 

Colin Davis, posted on January 13, 2015 at 00:35:51
mbnx01
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.


'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

Blomstedt San Francisco, posted on January 13, 2015 at 03:23:26
pbarach
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 Excellent sound, fine performances.

 

RE: Just saw over on SA-CD.net that Vänskä is resuming his Sibelius cycle. . . , posted on January 13, 2015 at 06:51:32
Mel
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"lamented Sam Tellig"?, posted on January 13, 2015 at 09:15:07
Mike Porper
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 Lamented??

By whom?

More like Armour All Tellig. Crappy Musical Fidelity buffer stage Tellig. Migrane-inducing Audio Technical Headphones Tellig. "33 rpm slows the music down" Tellig. If musical instruments resonate - so should loudspeakers Tellig. Fake pen name and imaginary friends Tellig. And on and on and on and on and on...

 

Not Blomstedt San Francisco, posted on January 13, 2015 at 09:36:40
Mike Porper
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 I seen many remarks that the Blomstedt is nicely recorded, and so dull that he sucks all life out of the music. Just quoting. I haven't heard them for myself, but I've heard his Nielson, and he did just that to him.

 

A few classic cycles and some others, posted on January 13, 2015 at 11:10:11
TGR
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 Colin Davis' 70's BSO cycle is wonderful - you wouldn't go wrong. Maazel with the VPO (60's) is also good, even if a bit more Tchaikovskyian (what a word) and more muscular than Davis.

For individual symphonies I would not be without Szell in the 2nd (either the Concertgebouw or the Cleveland live versions - I have both), Ansermet in the 4th (he was not otherwise a major Sibelian, but this is a really good performance, and he uses tube bells and not the little glockenspiel.....), Karajan in the 6th (the old EMI mono- terrific, and coupled with a great 7th as well), and Vanska/Minnesota in the 5th - although the 2nd it is coupled with can only be described as a surprisingly personal reading. I have heard Vanska perform the 6th live - terrific performance.

 

Wow, Mike! You really on your way to becoming our resident curmedgeon!, posted on January 13, 2015 at 11:16:29
Chris from Lafayette
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 BTW, I was never a fan of Sam Tellig either! ;-)

 

From left field (as it were): Rozhdestvensky and Moscow Radio SO, posted on January 13, 2015 at 11:27:09
Poles Apart
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 It's the brash Russian approach, very exciting and enlightening.

Otherwise do not neglect Robert Kajanus and Anthony Collins, albeit in mono. The former is nearly definitive.

P.A.

 

RE: Stick to the Scandinavians - don't go South of those, posted on January 13, 2015 at 12:29:30
Chris from Lafayette
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 In keeping with the gist ("ethnicity breeds authenticy" or something like that?) of your post (which, BTW, I don't necessarily agree with), I forgot one excellent cycle by another Finnish conductor in my post above: Sakari Oramo with the CBSO on Erato/Warner. Just plain old CD SQ, but still very satisfying - to me at least! ;-)

 

Ha! I see that you have not drunk all the Holy Water from..., posted on January 13, 2015 at 14:12:35
John Marks
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 The Confraternity of Saint Thomas!!!

Keep up the good work, young man!

jm

 

RE: Blomstedt , posted on January 13, 2015 at 15:28:36
pbarach
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 Mr. Porper: You never listened to it and you're making negative comments about it based on some other recordings of this conductor that you didn't like?

With all due respect, I don't see why your opinion about these recordings would have any validity. Nothing personal, but at least listen to it before opining. I've heard the Sibelius set and like these recordings a lot. Oh, and BTW, I like his Nielsen symphonies as well. I have seen Blomstedt conduct the Cleveland Orchestra twice in the last three years, and he got well-deserved standing ovations both times (including for a Nielsen Symphony 3).

 

Yes Yes Yes, posted on January 13, 2015 at 15:50:36
Mike Porper
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The so-called HIP Sibelius conductors today are a complete joke with zero credibility. Particularly since we have the real thing in recordings. Who? How?

Precisely in the form of recordings of Robert Kajanus and Anthony Collins, as you've mentioned. The former was a close friend and ally of Sibelius. Both were alive and performing in Sibelius's world. Except where reductions of forces may've been necessary for primitive 78 rpm technology [very true for acoustic recordings], they used full sized, modern symphony orchestras whenever possible. The liberties that Kajanus took with the score would severly scandalize today's modernist HIP phonies, who'd never ever dare to play music the way it was actually performed in Sibelius's day [at least prior to the 1930s].

As for Rozhd, I enthusiastically posted about his cycle some years ago. Very straightforward, zero sentiment. The Russian orchestra isn't up to our standards, and their brass really does bray [or, at least it's recorded sounding that way]. But, it's bold, hard Sibelius.

For a totally opposite, but totally valid view point, I'd suggest Bernstein's NYPO cycle, and Colin Davis's final cycle with the LSO.

 

You're Right, posted on January 13, 2015 at 17:30:58
Mike Porper
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 I was out of place, speaking about performance I'd never heard. I hate it when people do that with recordings about which I'm enthusiastic.

Since I can't delete the post at this point, let me try to amend it by saying that I haven't heard the Blomstedt set, and that my only experience with it are comments others have made about it.

 

2nd the Maazel/VPO symphs. Ansermet's 4th is a knockout IMO........London LP's. nt, posted on January 13, 2015 at 17:32:55
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: You're Right, posted on January 13, 2015 at 17:40:30
pbarach
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 Thanks for your reasonable response. However, please include my enthusiastic thumbs up among the comments you have heard others make about the Blomstedt set.

Also there are these comments from David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com:


"Herbert Blomstedt was both lucky and unlucky on disc during his tenure in San Francisco. He was lucky in that he made no bad recordings, and wisely stuck to repertoire that he felt strongly about and conducted extremely well, such as Nielsen, Sibelius, Hindemith, Mendelssohn, Grieg, Schubert, Strauss, and Brahms. Even his rare forays into (for him) uncharted territory, such as his Mahler Second or Bartók Concerto for Orchestra, turned out surprisingly well thanks to his inherent musicality allied to fine orchestral playing...

"So it's great to welcome back his outstanding Sibelius cycle, one of the finest available, right up there with Davis (Philips), Vänskä (BIS), Segerstam (Ondine), Berglund (pick one), or any other of your personal favorites. There isn't a weak performance here. Granted, No. 2 doesn't offer Szell's combination of excitement and discipline, but then no one else does, and Blomstedt's performance at least culminates in a truly powerful account of the finale. Everything else is wonderful, from the vital and energetic First, to the seamlessly managed transitions in the Seventh.

"Particularly outstanding are the middle symphonies, Nos. 3-5, where Blomstedt's control of structure and knowledge of where the music is going produce extremely impressive results. This Third, for example, certainly is one of the finest ever recorded, a performance of real inevitability and dynamism, with no hint of an anticlimax at the very end. The Fourth is aptly dark and gaunt, but it never bogs down thanks to flowing tempos and acutely observed dynamics (chimes in the finale, by the way, instead of the more usual glockenspiel).

"In the Fifth, Blomstedt captures the music's heroic demeanor with total confidence. The brass and timpani play magnificently, and the strings sustain the music's tension through their acres of tremolo and ostinato as if they really believe in the cause. This is similar to the kind of commitment the Vienna Philharmonic routinely brings to Bruckner, and it's rare. Blomstedt doesn't, however, take Sibelius' very quick tempo marking seriously in the finale of the Sixth--but then aside from Bernstein, virtually no one does. The interpretation is nevertheless persuasive, nowhere more so than in the careful balances between strings and winds that Blomstedt maintains in the opening movement, allowing the melodies to "float" atop a strong underlying musical current. Beautifully detailed sound, a deliberate and atmospheric Tapiola, and a wistful Valse triste round out this desirable package. If you missed it the first time round, don't hesitate now.' "

 

Seasonal Affective Disorder, Or Hyper Hypo Glycemia, posted on January 13, 2015 at 18:09:35
Mike Porper
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 Or, bad days at work.

That's OK. I've got it out of my system, and returninng to civility.

 

RE: Blomstedt San Francisco, posted on January 13, 2015 at 21:27:14
learsfool
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 I will second pbarach on this - the SFSO performances with Blomstedt are very good.

 

Yes - agree, posted on January 14, 2015 at 01:59:17
andy evans
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 I have the original Melodya LPs, almost unplayed. They're doing nothing since I don't have a turntable any more.

 

RE: Who does the best Sibelius?, posted on January 14, 2015 at 07:51:24
jdaniel@jps.net
 I obsess over the 4th and 5th, never heard better than Karajan's mid-'60s, even having listened to some of the alternates kindly offered in here and at vinyl asylum.

4th: the tone painting--the 'coloring' of the string sound--in the 1st and 3rd mov'ts are unmatched, IMHO. Incredibly bleak.

5th: Perfect balance between clarity and weightiness gives Sibelius' fleeting but poignant chord suspensions their due. Too much weight, you get mush; too much clarity, you get a chamber symphony. Very hard to keep the "line" going in the finale but K manages to keep the intensity up 'till the very end.

PS, I'm one of the millions that like Barbirolli's 2nd on Chesky, and thankful K Wilkinson was around to record it.

Haven't found a 7th to match the spiritual grandeur of Colin Davis' LSO on RCA, I believe from the '90s.

Dorati's collection of tone poems on EMI: Luonnotar, Oceanides, Nightride, etc. Is a favorite. Was disappointed by Berglunds 5 disc set--too light-weight and variable recording quality. Many feel the Beecham's early Sibelius incidental music is the most vivid of all.

Berglund's first Kullervo is a stunner and delights the audiophile crowd as well.

 

Agreed! Very refreshing/illuminating. nt, posted on January 14, 2015 at 08:41:58
jdaniel@jps.net
 .

 

For me, Osmo Vanska & Minn Orch, posted on January 14, 2015 at 08:49:49
Bill Way
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 I hope they reinstate their annual New York visit - fingers crossed. They will record the rest of the Sibelius symphonies for BIS this spring.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

I agree about that Dorati EMI disc - wonderful! [nt], posted on January 14, 2015 at 09:40:50
Chris from Lafayette
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Agree With All of your Picks [nt], posted on January 15, 2015 at 08:23:37
Mike Porper
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 t

 

Thanks. Forgot to add Flagstad's Sibelius Songs on Decca. As usual, she "becomes." But..., posted on January 15, 2015 at 08:27:48
jdaniel@jps.net
 There's some microphone overload in a few passages.

 

RE: Who does the best Sibelius?, posted on January 16, 2015 at 07:46:50
peterapperup
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I really like Mariss Jansons version with the
Bayerischer Rundfunk Symphonieorchester,

 

Symphony No. 1 only? Or are there more? [nt], posted on January 17, 2015 at 23:53:04
Chris from Lafayette
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