Oh, NO! Monteux!

Was never too wowed by Monteux, but I remember that "Orfeo ed Euridice", posted on December 3, 2014 at 13:57:41
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26434 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Well, you see, I had a crush on Roberta Peters when I was growing up. (But later, she was replaced by Anna Moffo!)

A fantastic Fantastique, posted on December 3, 2014 at 15:11:51

rbolaw

The young Monteux was concertmaster and then assistant conductor for Edouard Colonne, who had known Berlioz personally and was regarded as his leading interpreter. (Monteux inherited Colonne's own marked up score, but it was lost in W.W. II.) His final (stereo) Fantastique for RCA may not have been his best version, but it's still outstanding, imo, much more so than his final Sacre du Printemps.
His RCA stereo Dvorak 7th is also very fine. But I guess most of his best work on record is way downtown in monoville. Not ideal for the audiophile crowd around here.

Love his Beethoven 4th and Siegfried Idyll, posted on December 3, 2014 at 16:15:31
andy evans Audiophile Posts: 4378 Joined: October 20, 2000	Love his Beethoven 4th and Siegfried Idyll - had them on an LP in very good Stereo. Both absolutely top performances.

RE: Love his Beethoven 4th and Siegfried Idyll, posted on December 3, 2014 at 16:25:43
pbarach Audiophile Posts: 3306 Location: Ohio Joined: June 22, 2008	There are plenty of great Monteux recordings on labels other than RCA. I was just listening to his Daphnis et Chloe recording on Decca with the LSO. Recorded 1958--still not bettered, and the recorded sound is wonderful.

Oddly, the stuff in the box set doesn't seem to be that great..., posted on December 3, 2014 at 16:33:26
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	as far as recording quality. Sounds like 20 year old CDs, not much is re-mastered and I have RCA Vinyl from that era that sounds much better. At least that's what I hear streaming it at 16/44.1 from QOBUZ which is usually a very good marker of recording quality. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

You're behind the times., posted on December 3, 2014 at 16:50:49

Rick W

Its now common to extoll the virtues of original mono LP's as well as reissues of 'em, and have a second arm with a mono cart on it and/or an entire second tt setup for mono - to say nothing about 78's. They'd probably sound better with a good mono cart, but I do have a number of mono jazz albums that sound pretty damn good to me even with my stereo cart. Jeez, rbolaw, try to keep abreast of current trends in audiophilia, will ya?

Anyway, Symphony Fantastique ain't all that fantastic IMO.

I ordered my copy already..., posted on December 3, 2014 at 16:57:48
Russell Audiophile Posts: 2831 Location: San Francisco, California Joined: February 24, 2001	from Amazon UK. Considerably cheaper than Amazon US. Should arrive tomorrow! Russell

RE: Oddly, the stuff in the box set doesn't seem to be that great..., posted on December 3, 2014 at 17:08:53
Russell Audiophile Posts: 2831 Location: San Francisco, California Joined: February 24, 2001	The SFS recordings were never very good, even for the era. I remember reading that the audio on many of the early recording sessions was relayed by RCA via telephone lines to a tape recorder in a studio in Los Angeles! Still, I love sets like this, especially with the original LP cover art; this will replace my older RCA Monteux box from 20 years ago. Russell

Rite of Spring, posted on December 3, 2014 at 17:15:58

Chris from Lafayette
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I had an experience similar to the one I had with Bang Bang playing Kinderszenen: I heard this awful broadcast of the Rite of Spring as I was driving, having tuned to the radio station in mid-performance. This performance was so bad that I thought, "This has to be some student orchestra trying to plow through a piece that's simply beyond the players' ability!". At the end, the announcer came on, "That was a historical performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, with the Grand Orchestre Symphonique conducted by Pierre Monteux." I assume this is the performance now available on the Pearl label (?). Good for a laugh, I guess.

Actually, I'm interested in that Dvorak Seventh you mentioned, because I heard it on the radio when I was in high school and I hated it. I had just obtained a copy of the Szell performance (which I loved - now I've grown much cooler about it), and the Monteux performance seemed unacceptably lax compared to Szell. I might be more OK with the Monteux performance now if I heard it again. (Maybe I've grown lax myself in my old age!)

Haven't heard any Berlioz from Monteux. The crazed performances of Munch and Paray (especially the latter) have been seared into my consciousness as the way the SF ought to go - even without the direct line of descent from Berlioz himself. ;-)

Russell - I agree about the original cover art, posted on December 3, 2014 at 17:29:48

Chris from Lafayette
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With VERY few exceptions, I'm a fetishist myself when it comes to original cover art. In fact, that's one of the reasons I'm re-buying (yet again!) the Reiner/Chicago performances re-issued (yet again!) on SACD - this time by Analogue Productions. They've reproduced those original covers even more faithfully than the previous series of Living Stereo SACD's (done by Soundmirror) - even down to the "Miracle Surface" verbiage. I love it!

RE: "This has to be some student orchestra....", posted on December 3, 2014 at 19:05:35

Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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And indeed this one is, San Francisco Conservatory Orchestra, and a great performance, at least to those of us in the small hall who were lucky enough to be in attendance.

This is clearly a young persons piece of music and these musicians were into it!

Hope it comes through in the YouTube performance as well as it did live.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Rite of Spring, posted on December 3, 2014 at 20:52:57

rbolaw

Obviously, Monteux conducted the famous world premier of Le Sacre in Paris in 1913, so safe to say he knew it pretty well. He did a very good mono version with the Boston Symphony for RCA that I haven't heard in a long time, no doubt it's in that box. But for me, his final and only stereo recording of it is a little disappointing, and perhaps some of the blame should be put on the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra -- maybe we can tell the difference between them and a "first rank" orchestra (don't tell Scott).
His stereo Fantastique with the Vienna Philharmonic may not be his best one either, but imo it's much better than the stereo Sacre. I also like his SFSO Firebird, which should be in that box too.
As I said, Monteux is really of the historic mono era, and maybe his final recordings get too much play merely because they are stereo.

OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 3, 2014 at 21:06:08
rbolaw	I know mono is considered better for many early jazz records and the Beatles, for example, but isn't that mainly because such a crappy job was done with the stereo versions? And the Fantastique isn't my favorite Berlioz piece, either. But it is interesting to hear Monteux do it as he's only one remove from the composer.

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 3, 2014 at 22:20:15
Rick W	Might be true for the Beatles, not for jazz LP's. Lottsa great older jazz recordings were mono and never released in stereo. Many of the ones I own have pretty good sound. Gotta admit, I don't own any mono recordings of symphonic music. One I had and loved - Lt. Kije/Scythian Suite w/Hermann Scherchen - got too beat up.

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 4, 2014 at 07:52:37

rbolaw

Funny, the mono LP you mention with Scherchen is on the Westminster label. They released many outstanding classical mono LPs in the 1950s, some of the best for both performance and sound, and not hard to find or expensive.

What I was trying to say about stereo is that it wasn't well executed in a lot of the earliest stereo LPs. Do you know But Not For Me by the Ahmad Jamal Trio live at the Pershing Lounge from 1958? (Of course you do.) I have the original stereo LP. Great record, terrible stereo.

Unfortunately, a lot af my favorite Monteux RCAs won't be included here, posted on December 4, 2014 at 08:12:40

vinyl phanatic
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because they were recorded by Decca, to whom the rights eventually reverted. From what I can see, this set appears to only include things that were actually recorded by RCA.

Beethoven 6th, Vienna
Symphonie Fantastique, Vienna
Firebird & Petrouchka, Paris CO (The Firebird is particularly interesting because the music is laid out as in the familiar 1919 Suite, but he uses the original, much larger orchestration. I don't know of any other recording that does this).
Rite of Spring, PCO (I don't think this is as bad as most people seem to think. It has problems, I know, but I find it interesting in a lot of ways, particularly in the first half. Sound is much better on the 2 track tape than on the disc)
Brahms 2nd Symphony, Vienna (a wonderful performance, only issued in stereo as a shaded dog as part of the impossibly rare set of Brahms Symphonies, LSC 6411)
Dvorak 2nd (7th) London Symphony

I'm probably forgetting some others.

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 4, 2014 at 08:48:37
Travis Audiophile Posts: 6170 Location: La Grange, Texas Joined: November 25, 2001	That was just a bad recording, stereo or not. "If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

I'm much more tolerant of bad jazz recordings than bad symphonic recordings., posted on December 4, 2014 at 09:31:10

Rick W

Actually the Jamal "But Not For Me" I have is on a double LP reissue, with some tunes live at the Pershing, some studio, and some live at the Blackhawk. BNFM is from the Blackhawk on this set. Sound varies cut to cut, but I love Jamal and his great playing/concept outweighs sound quality for me. Its a helluva lot easier for me to get past bad or mediocre sound with a piano trio than a symphony orchestra.

Sure, I have a number of early stereo jazz LP's with the hard left/right pan that are not really good recordings. But if the sound is not ridiculously bright/thin - as it is on some bad recordings - the music still comes thru.

From what I've heard (and I certainly don't claim to be an expert) either the equipment or the engineers in the mono era did not do a good job with massed strings and brass sections - both usually sound bright/pinched. I've yet to hear a mono symphonic recording that had what I'd call good sound. Part of the reason I loved that Scherchen was because it was a record given to me by an uncle who introduced me to "classical" music in general, that piece in particular, and hifi.

I do like Scherchen. But Jeez, the sound on the stereo Classic Records reissue of Reiner/CSO playing Lt. Kije and Strav's Song Of The Nightingale that I own is worlds better (in fact its fantastic), and the performance is absolutely great IMO.

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 4, 2014 at 11:01:11

bald2
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My understanding is that many jazz and classical recordings from the mid 50 by small companies were cut in mono as a result of costs, marketing and related logistical factors. Some engineers, like Rudy Van Gelder (who recorded jazz for Prestige AND many classical LPs for Vox etc...) were set up with mono equipment and did location recording. In addition, I'm guessing that many if not most consumers didn't jump on the stereo bandwagon right away and had hifi setups with one speaker, one mono integrated amp and a turntable wired for mono, with a mono cartridge. Pretty expensive back them to buy whole new sets of equipment to accommodate newfangled technolgy. Moreover, mono stuff can sound better than stereo, especially early jazz and small group classical recordings (ie... the great Blue Note and Westminster classical LPs), just as good master tape still beats most other formats the majority of the time, all things being equal, provided that the hardware is working properly and the stars are aligned just so:)

Having been an audio enthusiast for 30+ years, my experience-- for what it's worth-- is that each generation and change in both recordings and hardward brings advancements AND setbacks. To wit, triode tubes can sound more unto the real thing than pentodes, and again with modern, state of the art solid state. Likewise the best early horns, high efficiency drivers and early electrostatic speakers-- despite their size and technical limitations-- are quite remarkable and satisfying.

It seems to me that the same is true for pressings of recordings. While SACDs and high rez digital can sound marvelous, each generation of stereo LPs and tapes is usually inferior to the originals (whereas the reverse is usually the norm for CD). First pressing Deccas, Blue Notes, RCAs, Mercurys, Westminsters and Everests (among others) are usually better sounding than later pressings, and the market reflects this.

Harry

classical mono, posted on December 4, 2014 at 11:20:11

rbolaw

Right you are. Most of the best sounding 50s classical mono LPs are chamber music or solo instrumental imho. There are a few pretty decent sounding orchestral ones, mainly from Mercury and London/Decca. Also, Leopold Stokowski did some great stuff with "his" symphony orchestra (mainly a combination of top NY Philharmonic and NBC Symphony players) on RCA, but the sq will not thrill you.

Agree re Ahmad Jamal. Brilliant guy.

There's one that's included..., posted on December 4, 2014 at 18:20:58
Russell Audiophile Posts: 2831 Location: San Francisco, California Joined: February 24, 2001	...and that's the Brahms Violin Concerto with Szeryng and the LSO, recorded in 1958. Originally produced by James Walker and engineered by the great Kenneth Wilkinson, so I'm presuming it was a Decca recording. As for others NOT included in the set, there's also the LSO Scheherazade. Russell

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 4, 2014 at 18:38:13
Utley1 Audiophile Posts: 1609 Location: NYC Joined: July 30, 2010	Good observations..RVG was technical genius and have many of his Blue Note recordings.....Have not heard the WESTMINSTER CD box . The pressings in old red covers bought at Sam Goody's in the bargain bins ,had many flaws(copies from the English pressings). some magnificent performances ,however.

RE: There's one that's included..., posted on December 4, 2014 at 20:26:57

Ivan303
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From the QOBUZ streaming site:

"Concerto for Violin and Orchestra in D Major, Op. 77
Interpr�tes
Pierre Monteux, Conductor, Main Artist - Johannes Brahms, Composer - Henryk Szeryng, Violin - London Symphony Orchestra, Associated Performer - Hiromichi Takiguchi, Mastering Engineer - James Walker, Producer - Kenneth Wilkinson, Recording Engineer"

Notice anything odd here in the credits above?

What's Hiromichi Takiguchi doing in there?

He's the mastering engineer with JVC responsible for their XRCDs. Could this be the multi-$$$ JVC mastered version of this piece?

Sounds pretty darn good! WAY better than most of the stuff on this set.

And it's my favorite version of the Brahms.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

That's one Monteux recording I DO have!, posted on December 5, 2014 at 00:39:22
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26434 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Gotta have that K2 processing! ;-)

That one and the Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 4 ..., posted on December 5, 2014 at 06:53:36

Ivan303
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that are in this box set list Hiromichi Takiguchi in the credits on QOBUZ and sound great.

What a surprise that whomever put together this box set ended up including these particular masterings?

ANd are those the ones that are on the CDs?

What I am reading on QOBUZ is the data from the track that is streaming. Have not idea how it got there but it seems that the is an information packet sent to the streaming application with each track streamed in QOBUZ and for the Tchaikovsky:

"Classique - Paru le 27 novembre 2014 chez RCA Red Seal

Symphony No. 4 in F Minor, Op. 36
Pierre Monteux, Conductor, Main Artist - Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Composer - Boston Symphony Orchestra, Associated Performer - John Pfeiffer, Producer - John Crawford, Recording Engineer - Hiromichi Takiguchi, Mastering Engineer"

Hope for those buying this box set that this is the version they get. See no reason not.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

"Found" a record I didn't remember I had, Scherchen, posted on December 5, 2014 at 11:07:42
mwhitmore Audiophile Posts: 1720 Location: San Francisco Joined: September 17, 2008	Plays The Russians yesterday. Westminster, cover says Mono/Stereo but the records say stereo. All the usual suspects: Polovtsian Dances, Scheherazade. Couldn't stop listening til I had gone through all six sides. I would swear I had never listened to it before, but it had rice paper innersleeves.

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 6, 2014 at 20:02:11
David Smith	I have a number of mono classical LPs. Many sound narrow and band-limited, but some sound great. I have the Reiner/CSO Scheherezade for example and it sounds fantastic in mono. While we're talking about Westminster, I have some good Mono's but their earliest stereos are among my best sounding LPs, notably (this time of year) The Nutcracker. Dave

Please let us know after you receive it..., posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:57:52
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Would like to hear your comments on the quality of both the Szeryng/Brahms and the Boston/Tchaikovsky No.4. Do they sound like they are the JVC/XRCD mastering to you? TIA First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Please let us know after you receive it..., posted on December 9, 2014 at 23:28:40

Russell
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Will do, Ivan, though I haven't heard either of those in their XRCD incarnations. If it helps at all, I do recall seeing some Japanese names in the engineering/mastering credits for several of the albums. My box set arrived last Thursday (the 4th), but I haven't had a chance to listen to any of it yet. I'm actually on a week-long vacation at the moment, so I expect to do do some serious listening when I return at the end of the week.

Russell

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 14, 2014 at 08:31:20
bald2 Audiophile Posts: 338 Location: Oregon Joined: January 21, 2006	Is that the old Rodzinski performance? If so, I am with you entirely. A magnificent recording! Harry

RE: OK, I'll try harder., posted on December 15, 2014 at 07:15:00
bald2 Audiophile Posts: 338 Location: Oregon Joined: January 21, 2006	Is that the old Rodzinski performance? If so, I am with you entirely. A magnificent recording! Harry

Music Lane

Oh, NO! Monteux!

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