Doping in the world of music

174.92.183.202

Posted on September 23, 2014 at 08:43:10

Just heard on the CBC that professional musicians in many orchestras have used beta-blockers for decades to be able to maintain their performance level, the idea being to lower their heart rate.

Strangely enough, the three musicians who have spoken out and were interviewed by the Radio-Canada journalists are all trumpeters.

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My wife used beta blockers for one performance

Chris from Lafayette

20:13:47 09/23/14

"I just don't get that nervous anymore."

tinear

08:08:56 09/28/14

You're coming down here from Oregon?

Chris from Lafayette

11:59:18 09/28/14

...

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My wife used beta blockers for one performance

Chris from Lafayette

20:13:47 09/23/14

"I just don't get that nervous anymore."

tinear

08:08:56 09/28/14

You're coming down here from Oregon?

Chris from Lafayette

11:59:18 09/28/14

RE: Doping in the world of music

learsfool

19:37:23 09/23/14

RE: Doping in the world of music

fstein

19:35:01 09/23/14

Beta blockers are common in classical musicians

andy evans

13:52:59 09/23/14

RE: Beta blockers are common in classical musicians

mkuller

08:37:09 09/26/14

Doping?

Amphissa

12:01:45 09/23/14

If they enhance performance than doping is an appropriate word . . .

risabet

13:33:04 09/25/14

They don't make you play better so not PEDs

andy evans

07:41:08 09/26/14

RE: Doping?

middleground

16:15:59 09/23/14

RE: Doping?

Amphissa

20:37:31 09/23/14

RE: Doping in the world of music

Analog Scott

10:07:50 09/23/14

Violinists were and perhaps are the worst offenders

John Marks

10:01:47 09/23/14

Exactly -- no big deal at all. Some guys get nervous even tho they're pros. nt

Rick W

11:20:27 09/23/14

RE: Exactly -- no big deal at all. Some guys get nervous even tho they're pros. nt

rbolaw

12:03:47 09/23/14

Agree.

Rick W

23:28:01 09/23/14

+1: Agree.

andy evans

12:22:35 09/24/14

Violinists were and perhaps are the worst offenders, posted on September 23, 2014 at 10:01:47
John Marks Manufacturer Posts: 7806 Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I. Joined: April 23, 2000	When nerves or age begin giving you involuntary vibrato from your bowing, many have sought help from beta blockers. My understanding was that was by prescription and in the grand scheme of things, no big deal. FWIW & YMMV. jm

RE: Doping in the world of music, posted on September 23, 2014 at 10:07:50
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9933 Joined: January 8, 2002	Love it. Now we can blame PEDs for these modern super human musicians. :-D

Exactly -- no big deal at all. Some guys get nervous even tho they're pros. nt, posted on September 23, 2014 at 11:20:27
Rick W	nt

Doping?, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:01:45

Amphissa
Audiophile

Posts: 2717
Location: Zardoz
Joined: March 9, 2004

Beta blockers have also been used for many years by public speakers and actors who suffer stage fright or are just unable to quell their nervousness when on stage. And beta blockers are commonly prescribed for people who fear flying. They do not affect brain function at all, and do not enhance muscle or hand-eye coordination. They do not possess any sort of effect on "feelings" or "mood" or other artistic benefits. They inhibit nervousness caused by the release of adrenaline. For public speaking, for example, this would eliminate the kind of hyperventilating that commonly occurs when an inexperienced speaker steps up to the mike.

I wouldn't consider use of beta blockers any more "doping" than taking aspirin for a headache before performing.

So why are they a prescription drug? Because, if you already have low blood pressure, the normal effect of beta blockers to steady heart rate can further reduce blood pressure, which could be dangerous.

As for real doping, a lot of performing artists use alcohol before (or during) performance.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

RE: Exactly -- no big deal at all. Some guys get nervous even tho they're pros. nt, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:03:47

rbolaw

What bothers me is when people recommend drugs for student amateurs or children who are nervous about performing. I know a musician who has become a self-annointed "performance anxiety" teacher/lecturer, giving seminars for a fee and the like, and she is very pro-drug.

I guess pros will do what they have to do, but to suggest amateurs or children take drugs for performance anxiety is ludicrous. A big benefit to studying music is to gain confidence in performing in public. Some people will never be entirely comfortable on stage, and careers in the performing arts are probably not for them, but they can still benefit from a taste of the experience -- without drugs, imo.

Beta blockers are common in classical musicians, posted on September 23, 2014 at 13:52:59

andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4382
Joined: October 20, 2000

This is my kind of subject as a performance psychologist. Beta blockers are common in classical musicians, and also as stated with actors and executives who have to give presentations. Very little use in dancers, since the movement in itself clears the adrenalin.

I wouldn't actively recommend them because it's much better to have a toolbox of strategies and methods like breathing, mindfulness and relaxation. And since most anxiety is the product of previous bad experiences and the fear of "how do I know it won't happen again at any time" it's important to take a detailed performance history and deconstruct it so as to persuade the sufferer that the blow-up events were the product of a cluster of stressors which won't happen again in the same exact way. All this gives substantial relief. The goal is not to eliminate nerves but to substitute manageable discomfort rather than feelings of panic.

Beta blockers are most useful in the case of stubborn or extreme cases of rapid heartbeat which are hard to get at by talking them through - things like major bullying traumas from early years which have migrated to performance situations.

Most musicians want to come off them, or just keep them for very stressful gigs. There are various medical contra-indications, a big one being asthma, and they should always be prescribed and not shared out to colleagues.

Norman Lebrecht referred to them as "performance enhancing drugs" which is ridiculous, but what's new there.

RE: Doping?, posted on September 23, 2014 at 16:15:59
middleground	Well it was all news to me, but what do I know. The three musicians who spoke made it sound like it was a problem and are in favour of a variety of solutions (yoga being one) other than dope, oh sorry medication!

RE: Doping in the world of music, posted on September 23, 2014 at 19:35:01
fstein Audiophile Posts: 2996 Location: fstein Joined: May 18, 2006	I guarantee that if you try to sell a beta blocker in a schoolyard you will get beaten up

RE: Doping in the world of music, posted on September 23, 2014 at 19:37:23

learsfool
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Joined: August 4, 2008

OK, here is the professional musician's take on this: First of all, it should be clarified that VERY few professional orchestral musicians use beta blockers all the time. An overwhelming majority of those who use them would only use them to take an audition, or maybe for a big solo performance, or perhaps for an orchestra concert on which they had a very big solo (to take an example from my own instrument, a principal horn player who has to play the Tchaikovsky 5th). At any given orchestral audition nowadays, most of the candidates are using them. However, this is about the only time they ever use them. A great many of those who use them only for auditions are only using them because they are afraid some other guy is gaining an edge if they don't! Many of these musicians take it in such a small dose that it doesn't even actually do anything, it is more of a placebo.

I myself have never yet used them. I prefer to use some breathing techniques to help calm and steady the nerves. The adrenalin rush is going to happen, period. There's no such thing as that not happening. I personally feel that one needs to learn to harness that extra energy and use it productively, which for a wind player means channeling it into the airstream. I do not disapprove of anyone who feels they need to use them, however. The stress level of a professional musician is very high, and they can be a very effective tool in dealing with it.

My wife used beta blockers for one performance, posted on September 23, 2014 at 20:13:47

Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26477
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
Since: February 6, 2012

We were playing the Bach Concerto in C Major for Two Keyboards in a concert with the Palo Alto Chamber Orchestra, a youth orchestra which at that time had just won some awards in Europe and had a pretty good (numerous) local following. She had never appeared as a concerto soloist before, and frequently had trouble not only with her hands shaking (because of nerves) in performance, but also with the mind racing in a way that doesn't happen in regular playing. So she went down and got a prescription for beta blockers - just for this one performance.

She was delighted with the results! It cured both problems (the hands shaking and the mind racing), and she was extremely happy with her playing. Unfortunately, the conductor at the time lost the tape of the performance and we never got a copy! :-(

I've never used beta blockers myself - I'm mostly accompanying these days, and I find that I just don't get that nervous anymore.

RE: Doping?, posted on September 23, 2014 at 20:37:31
Amphissa Audiophile Posts: 2717 Location: Zardoz Joined: March 9, 2004	Yep, and some people swear by acupuncture, meditation, psychoanalysis, prayer, cleansing detox, crossword puzzles, self-flagellation, or dozens of other solutions. I have no particular interest one way or another. I've never used beta blockers, but know some people who do use them on occasion. No big deal, as far as I'm concerned. "Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

Agree., posted on September 23, 2014 at 23:28:01

Rick W

Giving drugs to kids does seem misguided to me. I think the goal should be to overcome nervousness, not give up at an early age. Just like the rest of being a musician.........practice.

Regarding adult usage, for me its a NON-issue. If after trying for decades you still can't overcome a nervousness that hinders your career, its neither criminal nor cheating to take a pill that alleviates stage fright.

+1: Agree., posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:22:35

andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4382
Joined: October 20, 2000

One of the great thing about being a kid is that it's the time when - hopefully - you're the most free of added chemicals. The exception would probably be sugar for a lot of kids, unfortunately. But hopefully this is a life without nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, uppers and downers and all the rest of it.

As adults we can elect to go back to that state which we lived and enjoyed for years where we were virtually chemical free. We can elect to cut out nicotine, caffeine, alcohol and whatever else. Yes - society, billboards and everything else will bombard us with attempts to turn us into consumers of their products but we stlll can shape our own lives.

I know from other forums - e.g. a golf forum where people talk about solutions to anxiety in tournaments - that in the USA solutions are often in bottles. I'm saddened by this. I grew up in a family of doctors who stayed as clear as possible of chemicals - the word was "show me a drug with no side effects and I'll show you a drug that does nothing". Drugs have their place, but not as a go-to first port of call for issues about living life with all its ups and downs. Life is life.

If they enhance performance than doping is an appropriate word . . ., posted on September 25, 2014 at 13:33:04
risabet Audiophile Posts: 3197 Location: SoCal Joined: January 10, 2005	though personally not against PED per say, another poster pointed out that they may be used because of the perception that others may use them and get one up on someone who doesn't. Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. Adam Smith

They don't make you play better so not PEDs, posted on September 26, 2014 at 07:41:08
andy evans Audiophile Posts: 4382 Joined: October 20, 2000	They don't make you play better so they are not PEDs. Nothing like steroids for instance, which increase performance. All they do is stop certain players from playing below their normal level due to anxiety or shaking. Not the same thing at all. They don't confer advantages, they just make for a level playing field. And what's wrong with that?

RE: Beta blockers are common in classical musicians, posted on September 26, 2014 at 08:37:09
mkuller Audiophile Posts: 38130 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003	...as a pharmacist, I agree. When I was younger I used to experience anxiety when I would speak publicly to a crowd. Public speaking is rated as the number one anxiety producing activity. A beta-blocker a half hour ahead of time would eliminate the anxiety and have no other effects. As I gained self confidence in public speaking I no longer needed them.

"I just don't get that nervous anymore.", posted on September 28, 2014 at 08:08:56
tinear Audiophile Posts: 65782 Location: Kansas City, KS Joined: April 9, 2006	I'll be in the audience for your next performance. In my garden I've had a bumper-crop of Heirloom tomatoes… :-)

You're coming down here from Oregon?, posted on September 28, 2014 at 11:59:18
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Pour moi? (No - not the UK lingerie company!) I should be flattered! I'll post my next public appearance - Hope you don't have to waste your heirloom tomatoes, but I'll be prepared for anything! ;-) There was a slight chance I would be accompanying someone for President Obama and Senator Feinstein in October, but it looks as if it's fallen through. Oh well!

Music Lane

Doping in the world of music

174.92.183.202