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Bruch Violin Concerto: Jansen 0 Gluzman 1...

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Posted on September 13, 2014 at 16:07:30
kuma
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Greater anticipation and life from the opening melody. The balance of orchestra also more natural and intimate than Chailly. Gluzman is passionate phrasing and tempo manipulation giving tune a shape and structure yet remianing lyrical and flowing. Orchestra closely working WITH the soloist, too. Mellifluous but the expressiveness and good dynamic contrasts go a long way to keep me interested. There is a much wider emotional range, to me anyways, in this set than Jansen. Bold and daring with a dash of schmultz with weeping upper registers not too dissimilar from Szerying. Whilst I could see his romantic bits could be associated with Kreisler's but his bold moves and clean note articulations prevent it from becoming a sentimental goo. Very likable, indeed.

Thanks Ivan303 for recommending this disc to try even he's not particularly a *babe* fiddler. :)

Jansen/Chailly set was a disappointment. I thought her YouTube clips had more life than this. This sure isn't my cup of tea. Her Mendelssohn was even worse. ( way behind Oistrakh, Chung and Menuhin even )


 

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Try Leonid Kogan on Melodija, posted on September 13, 2014 at 16:49:37
Stale
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 My favorite version


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."

 

There's no help for you then! ;-), posted on September 14, 2014 at 01:14:54
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'm not knocking Gluzman - I have a couple of his other recordings (and they're great!), but not the Bruch. Now I'm going to have to buy it and let you know where you went wrong! ;-)

 

Usually we have to make the choice between 'Technical' and 'Emotional'..., posted on September 14, 2014 at 01:33:59
Ivan303
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 And with Bruch, emotional has to be given the day.

Gluzman has the technical chops to play from the heart, make the violin 'speak' to us and tell the story, but still play all of the notes in tune!

Now I have to run down all of the Bruch I have on vinyl, CD and streaming and get back to you.







First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Jansen, w Edo de Waart and NHK Symphony........ [yt], posted on September 14, 2014 at 01:44:08
Todd Krieger
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 After looking for a decent "babe" performance (from an earlier thread), I think I may have found one......

FWIW, this is also the best accompaniment I've heard w this concerto.

 

You should most certainly listen to the Gluzman..., posted on September 14, 2014 at 06:48:39
krisjan
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 ...it is terrific! IMO, he is one of today's best fiddle players. I don't know the Jansen so cannot comment on it.

 

We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 07:27:32
Analog Scott
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 "Usually we have to make the choice between 'Technical' and 'Emotional'..."

IMO one of the biggest myths in classical music.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 09:59:31
rbolaw
 I agree with you on this one. The real question is, exactly what is meant by "great technique" or "technical virtuosity". There was a shallow, simplistic, "circus trick" concept of virtuosity that was common at least by the early 19th century.

The violinist who premiered the Beethoven concerto was famous for being able to play the violin upside down, though I don't believe he played the Beethoven that way. That shallow "circus trick" concept of virtuosity had a large popular following through most the 19th century, though most serious musicians and composers disdained it.

IMO, with today's high-tech recording, we have a different, but no less shallow, "circus trick" concept of virtuosity. And we still have true virtuosity. A true technical virtuoso can play all the notes and also do it in a musical, compelling way.

 

I have at least two linear feet of Heifetz in my LP stash.., posted on September 14, 2014 at 11:50:32
Ivan303
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Including the reissue Box Set by Classic Records (my third as the first two were noisy).

I have probably listened to more hours of Heifetz than any other violinist, or any other classical artist for that matter. Do I wish he had played with a bit more 'soul'? Admittedly yes, but that doesn't mean that I am critical of his playing in the least.

But given the choice in the Brahms, for example, I prefer Szeryng. I can't explain it because Heifetz is as close to perfect as a fiddler can be.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 15:03:52
Analog Scott
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 "IMO, with today's high-tech recording, we have a different, but no less shallow, "circus trick" concept of virtuosity. And we still have true virtuosity. A true technical virtuoso can play all the notes and also do it in a musical, compelling way."

I very very much agree. The other thing we have since the era of magnetic tape is two worlds of performance. The recorded world where technical excellence is less of an issue due to editing and the live world where it is an issue. In the recorded world there is less of an issue of an artist having to hold back so as to get all the notes. It's really much harder to judge technical excellence based on recordings.

 

He split the concerto up and played tricks in the middle, posted on September 14, 2014 at 15:13:13
John Marks
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 Including playing something (but not LVB) with the violin held under his extended arm with the strings facing down.

ATB,

jm

 

Counter-intuitively, I think that the Scottish Fantasy is the better piece of music, posted on September 14, 2014 at 15:15:29
John Marks
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 Bruch's famous concerto is for me a tantalizing near miss.

To me, in almost all cases, it comes across as a series of disconnected gestures and great moments that lead to not so great moments.

I actually think that the level of musical inspiration in the composition of the Scottish Fantasy is higher.

jm

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 15:22:58
rbolaw
 Funny thing about recording and today's sophisticated editing techniques. I've always felt that all the editing in the world won't make a bad performance a good one or a good performance a great one. The result is always flawless in a sense, but not necessarily great, or even good. It can get the listener accustomed to hearing no mistakes or wrong notes, however, and carry that expectation to the stage.

I can think of three times offhand when I've heard the same musicians play the same music live and in a commercial studio recording. In each case, the live version was vastly better, though arguably flawed.

 

RE: Counter-intuitively, I think that the Scottish Fantasy is the better piece of music, posted on September 14, 2014 at 16:15:02
rbolaw
 Nathan Milstein agreed with you about the Bruch G minor as a near miss. He was also lukewarm about the Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Glazunov and Prokofiev concertos, and downright disliked the Sibelius. Only the Beethoven and Mendelssohn concertos fully met his standards. (The Bach and Mozart concertos didn't count as concertos in his calculations, and he doesn't even mention Vivaldi, despite his superb recordings of many of these.)

Funny thing is, he was especially enthusiastic about the Berg concerto, and got permission to perform it in a violin and piano version from the violinist who commissioned it. Sad that he never recorded it.

 

I've watched those..., posted on September 14, 2014 at 16:24:15
kuma
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 she's got another live concert and both of them, I thought, were decent. ( altho, neither still lacking a bit from Chung/Berglund.

The other difficulty I was having is Chailly's orchestra direction.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 16:24:56
David Smith
 "In the recorded world there is less of an issue of an artist having to hold back so as to get all the notes. It's really much harder to judge technical excellence based on recordings."

The effect is actually the opposite. Back when it wasn't unusual to have a flub on a recording from time to time, perfection was not the focus. These days absolute note perfection is expected and is one of the highest priorities in most cases. It doesn't matter whether there's the option of taking another take of something, the perfection is the priority. A younger player is far likelier to be a precision machine, at the expense of musical choices/risks, than in earlier eras. Counterintuitive but true.

Dave

 

Exactly right. Unfortunately., posted on September 14, 2014 at 16:57:11
rbolaw
 Of course, there have always been fanatics who demand endless takes in the studio (at least beginning when the technology allowed it). Elvis was one. You could argue that minor flubs that take nothing away or even enhance a live performance can become irritating when heard repeatedly in a recording, since they are always exactly the same flubs. And people sure did listen to Elvis hits repeatedly.

Alas, there is a price to pay for this convenience, and it is just as you describe.

 

I don't think it's definitive but very likable..., posted on September 14, 2014 at 17:28:39
kuma
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 My criteria for *good* performance is basically how a particular performance makes me feel. I don't know any technical aspect but when some soloist's breathing pattern or the way they punctuate a particular phrase matches mine, I can follow the tune better.

Gluzman does not exactly play *bold* per se, but I found him more down to earth and human than Jansen/Chailly.

Anyways, I am still short on babe Bruch violinist front. Next up is Nicola.

 

This is no babe..., posted on September 14, 2014 at 17:39:20
kuma
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 But Heifetz' Bruch still is high up on my ideal.

I still have Nicola to listen to.


 

Brahms' is the best violin concerto ever written exclusively while sitting at the piano, posted on September 14, 2014 at 17:55:06
John Marks
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 Brahms could be a dickhead.

jm

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 19:16:52
Analog Scott
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 What do you base this on?

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 19:33:13
David Smith
 Experience of my own, both recording and recording with and playing with and talking with musicians of many eras.

Dave

 

Forgot you ordered Nicola's recording too - there's still hope! [nt] ;-), posted on September 14, 2014 at 20:46:04
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: We do?, posted on September 14, 2014 at 21:19:54
Analog Scott
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 Which classical musicians did you record and/or talk with?

 

RE: Exactly right. Unfortunately., posted on September 14, 2014 at 22:27:11
Analog Scott
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 Are you suggesting that Elvis was a "precision machine, at the expense of musical choices/risks?"

 

Gotta agree..., posted on September 15, 2014 at 00:31:10
Ivan303
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 At least on the 'effect' side, for as a listener that's all I have to work with.

OTOH, I love to collect older recordings just to hear the interpretive differences, which are far greater than today, or so it seems from the unsophisticated listeners chair.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 15, 2014 at 04:20:16
David Smith
 Yawn. The first person that made me aware of it was a former principal tuba of the Philadelphia Orchestra, I'm not going to go through and list everybody. No doubt you think you know better, good for you.

Dave

 

RE: Exactly right. Unfortunately., posted on September 15, 2014 at 07:46:40
rbolaw
 Elvis Presley had astounding vocal technique. I'd bet he required all those takes so his backup band and singers got it just right. If he sang Heartbreak Hotel 18 consecutive times, there would be slight differences, but I'm sure each one would be superb.
In classical music, there was Dennis Brain, for example, who on one occasion when making an orchestral recording conducted by perfectionist Guido Cantelli, played the same difficult solo over and over flawlessly without ever breaking a note, an amazing feat for a french horn player.
Those guys were one-in-a-million technical virtuosos. And yet, the last thing their audiences were thinking when they heard Heartbreak Hotel or a Mozart horn concerto was, "What amazing technique!" That's what I meant by true virtuosity. You don't see (or hear) it often.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 15, 2014 at 08:00:43
rbolaw
 One way to see how right you are on this point, at least in the classical realm, is to go to some competitions, the more prestigious the better. And you might not have to go -- even competitions are sometimes recorded these days.

 

RE: Brahms' is the best violin concerto ever written exclusively while sitting at the piano, posted on September 15, 2014 at 08:12:17
rbolaw
 I thought Brahms needed (and got) a lot of help on the violin part from Joachim. And of course he radically revised it, cutting it down from four movements to three.
Milstein thought of the Brahms as like the Beethoven concerto but not as good. Maybe some truth to that, but imo Brahms went beyond Beethoven in achieving a loose, almost improvised, East European gypsy feel to the violin line.
For me another great example of that, though it's a far lesser piece, is the Khachaturian violin concerto. Of course, as a Soviet bloc composer, he wouldn't have been considered by Milstein at all.

 

Joachim..., posted on September 15, 2014 at 09:26:46
kuma
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 also was adviser to the Bruch's Concerto. Hence some similarity to Brahm's VC in its 3rd movement for Hungarian dance music.

 

RE: Exactly right. Unfortunately., posted on September 15, 2014 at 10:33:58
Analog Scott
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 So the idea that some artists do lots of takes does not support the idea that perfection is the priority. Or that it makes them a precision machine, at the expense of musical choices/risks. I think this is all just perpetuating the age old myth that all those old artists were real artists and all these new artists are soulless music machines.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 15, 2014 at 10:36:36
Analog Scott
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 Actually if you want to see just how wrong he is on this matter go see some actual concerts. But hey if the principle tuba player said it it must be true. It's really just complete nonsense.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 15, 2014 at 10:43:39
Analog Scott
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 So your assertion was...

" These days absolute note perfection is expected and is one of the highest priorities in most cases. It doesn't matter whether there's the option of taking another take of something, the perfection is the priority. A younger player is far likelier to be a precision machine, at the expense of musical choices/risks, than in earlier eras."

When I asked you what this was based on you said...

"Experience of my own, both recording and recording with and playing with and talking with musicians of many eras."

And that boils down to a conversation you had with the former principle tuba player of the Philadelphia Phil?

Yeah OK that's good enough to paint an entire generation of dedicated artists with the broad brush of soullessness. Have you ever actually attended any major classical recording session and actually witnessed a discussion of the expectation of note perfection? Or is this all coming from the tuba player?

 

RE: Exactly right. Unfortunately., posted on September 15, 2014 at 11:01:19
rbolaw
 No, not at all. The number of takes by itself doesn't necessarily tell you much. One of those "old pianists", Annie Fischer, was so fastidious about recording (seemingly verging on OCD) that she recorded a complete set of the Beethoven piano sonatas a few painstaking measures at a time. Not surprisingly, she died before approving the entire set for publication, but after her death it was released anyway, and remains a very highly regarded set by connoisseurs of such things.
I have a CD of a fine live radio broadcast recital she gave at an advanced age with a number of minor but noticeable "flubs" that she never would have approved for commercial release, though as David Smith rightly pointed out, many others would have issued a record with such minor flaws without a second thought (Richter, for example, who disliked the studio and forced his labels to record him live).
Annie Fischer belongs to an earlier time, when such minor flaws were not yet considered fatal to a great pianist. But times have changed, and not entirely for the better.

 

RE: We do?, posted on September 15, 2014 at 11:07:16
David Smith
 No of course not. That's as much time as I'll waste with you, thanks.

Dave

 

RE: Counter-intuitively, I think that the Scottish Fantasy is the better piece of music, posted on September 15, 2014 at 11:51:47
Old SteveA
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 How do you feel about Moeran's Violin Concerto ? I've always thought that the Lyrita recording of this piece to be sublime

(Back to the Bruch; I think the Scottish Fantasy has more passion to it due to the fact that thematically it has more of a feel of regional "folk melodies" to it)

 

"when such minor flaws were not yet considered fatal to a great pianist", posted on September 15, 2014 at 12:28:36
Chris from Lafayette
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 But, per your own account, Annie Fischer herself considered them fatal.

 

It was in the air, posted on September 15, 2014 at 13:07:27
John Marks
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 All four of Brahms' concerti end with Gypsy dances or quasi-Gypsy quasi-dances.

jm

 

As I understand it, posted on September 15, 2014 at 14:09:08
John Marks
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And there is lots of scholarship on this that I honestly have only skimmed, and IIRC a color reproduction of the manuscript so you can more easily see the changes, but, as I understand it, the scholarly consensus is that ironically enough, Brahms accepted Joachim's purely musical suggestions much more readily than he did Joachim's violinistic objections.

The primary violinistic objection as I understood it was that by writing piano-like chords for the violin, Brahms was making the violinist choose between playing the chords as written or playing in tune, owing to the deflection of the middle string in the chord because of the curvature of the violin's bridge.

There's a lot more sturm und drang crunchiness of sound in the Brahms concerto than the Mendelssohn, f'ristance.

Indeed, the Brahms Violin Concerto goes a lot more smoothly as a piano concerto!

jm

 

Not quite., posted on September 15, 2014 at 14:21:12
rbolaw
 She did perform and allow herself to be recorded live, unlike Glenn Gould, but like him she was one of those "nothing is ever good enough" types. She lived and performed well into the era where lots of splicing and editing was possible, and took full advantage, at least with her Beethoven cycle, but even then apparently it wasn't good enough for her.

Both Gould and Fischer seem to have had psychological issues when it came to performing and recording (and in his case, just about everything else).
But I was discussing something different, i.e., David's point, with which I agree. And that is, modern high-tech recording has made us accustomed to a kind of technical "perfection" that doesn't exist in nature, and many of today's performers try to imitate that kind of perfection in live performance, which doesn't necessarily guarantee a perfect or even a very good performance in other ways.


 

RE: Not quite., posted on September 15, 2014 at 15:50:52
Analog Scott
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 "and many of today's performers try to imitate that kind of perfection in live performance, which doesn't necessarily guarantee a perfect or even a very good performance in other ways."

Again I can only suggest that you go to some concerts and see for yourelf that this is simply not even close to true.

 

OK, but everything else being equal, I'd rather have the notes too, posted on September 15, 2014 at 15:53:52
Chris from Lafayette
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 What I think you and David are arguing is that, somehow, getting all the notes lessens the quality of the performance (?). Or that if you concentrate on getting all the notes, you are somehow prevented from also concentrating on getting to the essence of the music (again, ?).

Back in the 70's when I was in school, one of the professors took part of his class time to rail against tape editing. He said that recorded performances are so edited to perfection that it's breeding a generation of neurotic musicians! (And this was merely with tape editing as it existed in the 70's - imagine what he'd say about digital editing!)

I would also refer to a discussion we all had a few years ago wherein I wrote the following points about ancient vs. new recordings (some of which I had just confirmed with Jon Nakamatsu):

  • If you can't play the piece, then no amount of editing is going to make it sound like you can.
  • What editing is done on Jon's recordings is almost never done to correct for wrong notes, it's more to get a phrase expansion (for instance) just right.
  • Because of studio costs, each work is recorded only three times - so all the hundreds of edits in a present-day recording come almost entirely from those three takes. There are also patch sessions, but budgets do not allow for much time to be spent on patch sessions.
  • Back in the days of 78's, performers might record each 4 and a half minute side a number of times, and then the best of the five "takes" would appear in the finished album. This is obviously not in keeping with the rose colored view of classic recordings, viz., that "they were walking without a tight rope" in their performances. Maybe this was true sometimes, but by no means always. There might have been an "edit" every five minutes!


BTW, I'd be interested in examples (names) the current musicians (i.e., performing today) whom you think are trying to "imitate perfection" in their live performances. Also, I can't quite reconcile this imitation of perfection with all the body english that's often used these days! ;-)

 

RE: OK, but everything else being equal, I'd rather have the notes too, posted on September 15, 2014 at 16:28:53
rbolaw
 I agree with all of your and/or Mr. Nakamatsu's bullet points. The first and most important one is exactly the same as one I made myself earlier in this thread. The way I put it was, no amount of editing will turn a bad performance into a good one, or a good performance into a great one.

It's really only saying the same thing to say the artificial "perfection" achievable with today's sophisticated editing technology really isn't perfection in the more profound sense, or anything close to it. My second point, and I think David's point, was that our ears have grown accustomed to the artificial perfection of recordings, and that has had an impact on live performance. Apparently a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra agrees.

True, studio time is money, but the pros know how to do a lot even without dozens of takes.

YMMV. I decline to name names. ;)

 

That's funny, posted on September 15, 2014 at 16:43:59
rbolaw
 and perplexing. What on earth makes you think I don't go to concerts? For example, I served on the boards of two professional music ensembles, and when I did I attended nearly all of their concerts, often with guests such as Cho-Liang Lin, the Cleveland Quartet and Jerome Lowenthal (for whom I stepped on stage and turned pages, as I did for other professional pianists). I also got to meet and chat with all these people about their performances.
Not that this makes me better than anyone else, but "go to concerts and see for yourself"? "Simply not even close to true"? David Smith, who is a well-known jazz trumpet player in NY, and a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra seem to agree with me. Do they not go to enough concerts?

 

Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 15, 2014 at 18:43:32
David Smith
 "What I think you and David are arguing is that, somehow, getting all the notes lessens the quality of the performance (?). Or that if you concentrate on getting all the notes, you are somehow prevented from also concentrating on getting to the essence of the music (again, ?)."

Not at all what I said or am "arguing".

I don't think there has ever been a time when (good) musicians weren't concerned with playing correctly and aspired to play as perfectly as possible, nor has there been a time when it didn't matter. My comment was about the effects of recording technology. The ease of editing with modern technology has not had the effect of allowing artists to play with more abandon, it has done the opposite in creating an expectation of flawlessness. It's not about artists "being prevented from also concentrating on getting to the essence of the music", it's about note-perfection being a higher priority than it once was. It means that note-perfection is more of a criterion in getting a job. It means that a sound that cuts clearly, perfectly in-tune is a higher priority relative to beauty or expression than it used to be. It doesn't mean that modern musicians are soulless, it means that they have to adjust their priorities accordingly. That may affect which equipment they choose to play with, how they play, repertoire they choose, or who pursues these jobs. Nothing is universal, nobody is saying anything about everybody.

Dave

 

RE: That's funny, posted on September 15, 2014 at 20:56:50
Analog Scott
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 OK then please tell me which musicians have you seen that fit this description? "and many of today's performers try to imitate that kind of perfection in live performance, which doesn't necessarily guarantee a perfect or even a very good performance in other ways." Since you seem to be agreeing with David Smith. this is what he is claiming. Who is doing this that you have seen in concert?

 

RE: OK, but everything else being equal, I'd rather have the notes too, posted on September 15, 2014 at 21:21:59
Analog Scott
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 Classical recordings have been being edited for over 60 years. How is it that it has had a unique influence on "today's" classical musicians?

 

RE: That's funny, posted on September 15, 2014 at 21:53:45
Analog Scott
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 "David Smith, who is a well-known jazz trumpet player in NY, and a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra"

This Philadelphia Orchestra?

https://www.philorch.org/about/musicians#/

I don't see him listed.

 

I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 00:11:28
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . I don't find myself missing any abandon in many modern performances - recorded or live. As you say, one can't necessarily apply general rules and observations to everybody.

 

Oh PLEASE!, posted on September 16, 2014 at 01:26:44
Ivan303
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 Don't tell me you read that as being one and the same person.

Unless you believe Dave doubles on tuba! =:-0


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Oh PLEASE!, posted on September 16, 2014 at 04:16:26
Analog Scott
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 Yeah, actually I did read it as that. I missed the comma.

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 04:18:36
Analog Scott
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 Or apparently anybody specifically. We have yet to see one example cited of this alleged alarming trend.

 

+1. Couldn't put it more clearly than that. nt, posted on September 16, 2014 at 05:13:29
rbolaw

 

Not surprising, posted on September 16, 2014 at 05:56:43
David Smith
 It's relative, and it's more nuanced than listening for missing abandon. Not that a good performance always should have abandon...As I said, I'm not indicting a generation, one that I'm part of I'd add, I'm relating an observation on the effect of recording editing.

Dave

 

RE: Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 16, 2014 at 10:11:07
Analog Scott
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 Classical recordings have been subjected to editing since shortly after the invention of magnetic tape. This is over 60 years ago. Your assertion was leveled against "today's" young artists.

You do keep saying that the ability to edit has lead to an emphasis and priority on note perfection at the expense of artistry. Fine, which artists and/or producers of classical recordings has actually expressed this emphasis? I have yet to see any artist or producer ever put any such emphasis on note perfection. In fact in interviews and in person I have seen nothing but the opposite expressed.

 

RE: Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 16, 2014 at 10:12:59
David Smith
 Yawn.

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 10:37:21
Tony Lauck
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Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "We have yet to see one example cited of this alleged alarming trend."


I've been listening to live performances and recorded music for 50 years and the trend is obvious. I'm just a listener. It has to be more than obvious to professional musicians such as Dave. It makes no sense to disbelieve what these people say.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 16, 2014 at 11:30:00
Analog Scott
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Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Now you're just being a dick.

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 11:34:52
Analog Scott
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Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Really? So I should believe what Dave says instead of what the actual classical musicians, conductors and producers say?

And how is it obvious? Some examples please. Tell us what concerts you have been to lately where it was so obvious that the performers were placing an emphasis of note perfection over artistry? How can you even pretend to know that? Unless they are saying it you can't know that.

 

RE: Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 16, 2014 at 12:12:01
David Smith
 Considering that I told you I was through discussing the topic with you some time ago yet you continue to respond to me, you're going to get the response your conduct warrants. Your enthusiasm for arguing on the internet is clouding your comprehension as well as your judgment.

Dave

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 12:31:52
rbolaw
 What you don't seem to understand is that different listeners come from different backgrounds, have different experience, education and training, different natural levels of musical ability, and different tastes and values, and hear things differently for those and any number of other reasons. If someone else hears something you don't (or can't), it doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but it sure as heck doesn't make them wrong either.

Your endless cries for "proof" are tiresome. When I gave specific examples in another thread, you said it was all a matter of subjective taste. So it is, so no point going down that tortured path again. At this point I can only join David and say "yawn" to this discussion. Why don't you go back to enjoying the great music we all love and skip the childish name calling?

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 12:40:18
Tony Lauck
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Posts: 13629
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 You were give a specific statement by one musician. You chose to dismiss it. I suggest you go to a concervatory and talk to the teachers and the music students. You will get a good idea of the situation. Or you can go to concerts and see the audience reaction to concerts that are technically perfect vs. those that have extreme musical depth and get the general sense of the audience. But unfortunately to do this requires you to be able to distinguish musical depth when it happens. And I suspect that perhaps you find this difficult, otherwise you wouldn't be taking the position that you have.

This goes across other musical genres, but I used classical music and classical musicians, because that's what I am most familiar with, among other reasons being that I was married to a classical pianist for 43 years and had quite a few discussions on this subject. These came up frequently because we lived for many years under the dark era of Seiji Ozawa at the Boston Symphony Orchestra where we had technical mastery to be sure, but little musical depth throughout most of the repertoire.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

"Your endless cries for "proof" are tiresome", posted on September 16, 2014 at 13:59:02
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 Nevertheless, actual examples might help us to understand exactly what you, Dave and Tony are getting at. To speak in broad generalities like this isn't the most helpful in getting the validity these assertions figured out. Also, I forgot what your own specific examples in the other thread were, so if you don't mind repeating. . .

 

I can't speak for Ozawa's live concerts in Boston (wasn't there). . . , posted on September 16, 2014 at 14:23:48
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . but some of the recordings he made during this era are very fine indeed:



I also feel that there's a contradiction in your assertions that, on the one hand, you can judge whether there's extreme musical depth in a performance by the audience reaction (that's a particularly dangerous one!), and on the other hand, you have to be able to discern musical depth when in happens (presumably, regardless of how the rest of the audience reacts). Really, don't we all feel that we're able to discern extreme musical depth? ;-)

 

The birds didn't sing when Ozawa was conducting., posted on September 16, 2014 at 14:52:25
Tony Lauck
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Posts: 13629
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 I believe you misunderstood me in regard to audience reaction. What disgusted me the most was how the audience tolerated the performances that O. gave that were note perfect but failed to demonstrate musical depth. By their reaction the audiance demonstrated that they were more interested in the show and the raw notes, rather than the music. If the audiences had been discerning there wouldn't have been standing ovations, there wouldn't have been donations, and the musical dark age in Boston would have ended much sooner. My wife and I used to listen to BSO broadcasts with our windows open. Our lot was heavily forested and the birds often sang when we were playing classical music. We joked that the birds didn't sing when Ozawa was conducting.

Some of Ozawa's performances of 20th century music were OK, but I would have doubly passed on the Prokofiev. DG orchestral recordings were on my "don't buy" list because of the use of multiple microphones and the resulting flat sound stage. Their solo and chamber recordings had decent sound. For some reason the related Archiv label didn't have this problem. Unless on sale at a very cheap price, I have made it a practice not to buy recordings of music that I already have recordings of unless they are by first rate performers and issued on record labels with first rate sound.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

No más. Sorry. nt, posted on September 16, 2014 at 15:14:48
rbolaw

 

It's OK - np [nt] ;-), posted on September 16, 2014 at 15:52:45
Chris from Lafayette
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I agree with you about DG SQ - the Ozawa/BPO Prokofiev series was better than most DG's however [nt], posted on September 16, 2014 at 15:55:36
Chris from Lafayette
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Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 17:14:25
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 What you don't seem to understand is that David's assertion has nothing to do with what you hear or what I hear or what he hears. Let's actually revisit the assertion in question. David's own words...

"These days absolute note perfection is expected and is one of the highest priorities in most cases. It doesn't matter whether there's the option of taking another take of something, the perfection is the priority. A younger player is far likelier to be a precision machine, at the expense of musical choices/risks, than in earlier eras. Counterintuitive but true."

You can't know an artist's "priority" by listening to their recordings or attending their concerts. You can't know that without them telling you that. It's even worse though when one makes such a specific and damning assertion and can't cite one single example of it.

I'm going to tell you a little story. I am an artist of sorts myself. My work is out there for the public and for my piers to see and judge. I am at peace with that. One time when I was working a couple coworkers were discussing my work. One of them did not know I was the artist who did the work he was critiquing. His critique was pretty vicious but I was fine with it. I was until he made the comment that I was clearly being lazy when I did the work he was critiquing. At this point I jumped all over him and called him out. I told him in no uncertain terms that he is free to have any opinion about my work that he wishes but that if he ever questioned my work ethic again we would have some real problems. The bottom line and the moral of the story is my work is fair game. My motives are not.

The quality of any artist's performance is fair game to critique and opine about. But when it comes to an artist's motives you can't draw meaningful conclusions by your subjective opinions about the quality of the work.

Yes David is a jazz musician. But he is not a classical musician. Unless he has first hand accounts of these young musicians expressing that the priority is note perfection he simply doesn't know. I personally know many classical musicians. I have sat in on many closed rehearsals for both concerts and recordings. The discussions were pretty much completely focused on the interpretation of the music. Never, never have I seen anyone ever express an emphasis on note perfection during any of those rehearsals. I have many discussions with these artists about music and again I have never had any of them express a priority for note perfection. Quite the opposite actually. So yeah, I'd like to see some reasonable proof that David actually knows the "priorities" of these artists. Clearly he doesn't know any of them personally nor has had any meaningful discussions with any of them about their musical priorities. If he had it would quite easy to cite examples.

can you imagine for a moment what David's reaction would be if I dismissed his entire generation of jazz musicians as lazy or musically ignorant or something else along those lines based on having listened to some modern jazz recordings and/or having been to several gigs over the last few years? I bet he would take issue with me doing that.

The work is fair game. It's quality is subjective at the end of the day. The artists and their motives are not fair game. Their motives and artistic goals are not subject to the opinions of their audience.

 

RE: I see where you're coming from, but still. . ., posted on September 16, 2014 at 17:31:56
Analog Scott
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Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Rest assured I have a lot more actual information on the subject than David's statement. His statement runs contrary to that of many folks I personally know and talk to who have positions of much greater authority when it comes to the artistic goals and motives of classical musicians. That being actual classical musicians, conductors and recording producers. But what do they know about their own motives? Really? You think I should go to a conservatory and talk to students? I've already talked to and observed the one in house producer for DG, Sid McLauchlan while he was recording major classical artists who were also personal friends of mine. I have sat in on numerous closed rehearsals of major classical artists and closely observed the discussions about the music being played. And I have actually talked music with a few students at USC and The Thorton school of music. Now should I dismiss all that I took in from all of that because David made a specific statement that runs completely contrary?

I'm not really interested in this being a pissing match but the fact is what you say and what David says runs contrary to what I have observed and heard from classical musicians that have considerably more credibility with me than either of the two of you.

Sorry....

 

RE: Hammer seeking nail syndrome, posted on September 16, 2014 at 18:07:23
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Yawn

 

Yes - excellent - that pretty much sums it up, posted on September 17, 2014 at 01:03:59
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 I would also guess that the earliest exposure of kids to music might be through today's note-perfect recordings, and that a kind of technical perfection just occurs more naturally in the course of their studies these days (compared to times when recordings exposed technique that wasn't quite as ship-shape!). Again, just a guess, but my experience accompanying Jon Nakamatsu since he was nine years old is certainly in keeping with this supposition - even at that age, he just did not know how to make a mistake! ;-)

 

Some suggested reading, posted on September 17, 2014 at 06:12:30
rbolaw
 OK, Chris, I'm not going to continue our debate, but here is an interesting article Jeremy Denk recently wrote for The New Yorker about his experiences recording Ives' Concord Sonata. It proves nothing, but is an excellent illustration of the profound impact modern recording technology has had on the thinking and work of a very good classical pianist.

Exactly what the overall implications are for Mr. Denk in particular or musicians generally, well, we'll just have to leave that question for another day.

 

RE: Some suggested reading, posted on September 17, 2014 at 07:34:47
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Great article. Thanks for posting that

 

Very entertaining - Thanks! [nt], posted on September 17, 2014 at 09:14:29
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

Excellent article, posted on September 17, 2014 at 15:31:39
David Smith
 Recording is very hard, there's a very good reason they're called "great" recordings.

Dave

 

Sorry for the delay, posted on September 17, 2014 at 16:50:18
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7799
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Hi-

I probably should listen to a few more recordings of that, and I will.

I know that Tasmin Little has championed that, and I loved her Delius.

I recall the Moeran (always thought he was an unumlauted German but turns out he was Anglo-Irish) as in the same ballpark as A Lark Ascending (good company, certainly) with the merits and demerits of being more diffusely focused. Perhaps more themes than the structure can support?

ATB,

jm

 

RE: Sorry for the delay, posted on September 17, 2014 at 18:35:10
Old SteveA
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: March 27, 2011
 The Tasmin Little,recording is probably available on Hyperion w// .?. Brabins conducting ?

How about a suggestion for "The Lark Ascending" when you mentioned this I immediately recognized the ridiculous gap that exists in my library. (We can't have that, can we ?)

Thanks John

 

Lark Ascending, posted on September 17, 2014 at 19:08:07
pbarach
Audiophile

Posts: 3306
Location: Ohio
Joined: June 22, 2008
 My favorite performance of this piece of Hugh Bean's conducted by Boult. I haven't heard any that I like bettert.

 

RE: Lark Ascending, posted on September 17, 2014 at 21:53:58
Old SteveA
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: March 27, 2011
 Label , please !

(I guessing it was EMI, that this was on (or was it Decca ?)

 

RE: Counter-intuitively, I think that the Scottish Fantasy is the better piece of music, posted on September 17, 2014 at 22:43:22
Old SteveA
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: March 27, 2011
 I really don't seem to care for the "Orchestra to Violin balance " of most of Heifetz's Concerto's the "Fantasy" w/ Sir Malcom Sargent seems to be one of the exceptions.

Was this a Ken Wilkinson recording ? For some reason the Orchestra was allowed to participate in the recording more than the usual Hefietz Cto. recordings.

 

RE: Lark Ascending, posted on September 18, 2014 at 03:29:17
pbarach
Audiophile

Posts: 3306
Location: Ohio
Joined: June 22, 2008
 It was on EMI, and I found 11 albums at Arkivmusic (mostly box sets) that include this rendition of this piece. You can preview it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_JCvL1jVeM

 

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