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Schumann Carnaval - favourites?

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Posted on April 3, 2014 at 05:38:21
andy evans
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 It's always a pleasure to revisit this marvellous score. I've been so imprinted on Rachmaninov's inimitable version that I've neglected the rest of the field. Obviously quite wrongly.

A couple of real stand-out versions make me wonder if this is a woman's piece:

Myra Hess - wonderful
Alicia de Larrocha - just love it

Much more playful and lyrical than a lot of the guys - Arrau, Kempff, and even Kissin disappoint, though Freire is good.

Was this very connected with Clara in terms of inspiration?

 

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RE: Schumann Carnaval - favourites?, posted on April 3, 2014 at 07:08:27
layman
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 It is a wonderful piano cycle but not one that cannot be mastered by players of either gender.

Some of my favorite recordings have come from Daniel Barenboim, Cecile Licad and Slavka Pechocova.

I don't think the Carnaval is easy to perform as it seems to trip up players reqularly. Many players lose the mood of the piece...I am not sure why...there's a subversive sense of humour in the Carnaval that too many performers fail to notice.

I really cringe when players bang out the notes robotically and lose the delicate humour and sensitivity of the piece.

 

RE: Schumann Carnaval - favourites?, posted on April 3, 2014 at 15:24:46
pbarach
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 I too am imprinted on Rachmaninov's version, but I also like Kempff, Perahia, Rubinstein (stereo version), Licad.

And I would love to hear Jonathan Biss play it--his all-Schumann EMI disc is terrific.

 

RE: Schumann Carnaval - favourites?, posted on April 3, 2014 at 15:57:33
Chris from Lafayette
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 Well, the "Chiarina" movement is a portrait of Clara, but that's about all I know of directly related to her in this work - Wikipedia has a good article on Carnaval.

As for favorite recordings, I haven't heard it in over four decades now, but. . .



. . . I have very fond memories of this one, and I wish some of ID's Columbia recordings would get reissued. There was a Haydn/Mozart/Scarlatti disc that I also remember as being tremendous. Oops! - Here it is:




A lot of recordings of Carnaval are just not on my wavelength - the rubato in most performances just seems wrong, often there's too much of it, and the technical demands are just not met at a high enough level. Of more recently issued recordings (i.e., ones that you can actually buy for a reasonable price - unlike the recording pictured above!), I guess I like the in-concert Michelangeli performance on Testament, Egorov on EMI, Cecile Licad on Sony - don't laugh, Imelda Marcos' pianistic ambassador does a great job with this piece. Of course, there's the classic Rachmaninoff interpretation - a one-of-a-kind take on this work, which Rachmaninoff succeeds with through sheer force of technique and personality.

 

You just might like Guinomar Novaes set...., posted on April 3, 2014 at 17:30:02
kuma
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 She's a bit different from the ladies you like but she's one of my favourite for Schumann pieces.
Her style fits my idea of *playfulness*.



 

I clicked on your post fully expecting that you'd posted a picture..., posted on April 3, 2014 at 18:45:27
Ivan303
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of one of MY favorite 'Piano Babes'...

The a fore mentioned Ms. Hess.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: You just might like Guinomar Novaes set...., posted on April 3, 2014 at 18:55:15
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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They were all 'Piano Babes' at one time.





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Last time I heard it was live..., posted on April 3, 2014 at 19:03:24
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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was with your friend, Jon Nakamatsu at the piano at 'noontime concerts' at Old St. Mary's Cathedral here in San Francisco.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

And I can't believe I'm gonna beat Chris to this one..., posted on April 3, 2014 at 19:11:25
Ivan303
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Just released this last month!

I'm streaming it on QOBUZ which has most of the hm catalog up sometimes even before the CD is released!




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

true...., posted on April 3, 2014 at 19:27:06
kuma
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 even Nikolayeva was a babe at one point...


 

Godowsky! In a set that's a must for all Schumann lovers,, posted on April 3, 2014 at 19:51:24
tinear
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Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
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 Andante's, "Robert Schumann Piano Works."
You can compare Godowsky to Rachmaninoff's: both are included.
You can also hear the likes of legends Nat, Haskil, Corot, Gieseking, Cortot, and Fischer. The sound, considering the age of some recordings, is very well done, the musicality is communicated. Caveat: stick to contemporary artists and downloads if absolute sound trumps performance in your world. For those that put music first, this is an easy decision; it's a "must own."

 

Would have loved to met this one, back in the day..., posted on April 3, 2014 at 19:55:09
Ivan303
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Not that anyone with any sense would want to go back to those particular days!






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

You do know Jon has a new recording of Carnaval, right?, posted on April 4, 2014 at 00:25:12
Chris from Lafayette
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 Best playing however is in the G-minor Sonata.



Has only been out for a couple of weeks. Also available as a 24/88.2 download.

 

Replied to your post below before I saw this one [nt] ;-), posted on April 4, 2014 at 00:28:50
Chris from Lafayette
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I should, and I did once...., posted on April 4, 2014 at 00:43:56
andy evans
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 I'm a fan of Novaes - gripping individual playing. I have her Nights in the Gardens of Spain.

But her Carnaval didn't survive repeated listening. There's a lot of over-emphasis.

De Larrocha is so much lighter and more playful. She's a pianist I love anyway in a lot of repertoire. Wonderful conception and lightness of touch.

 

In a hundred years, will people know Jon's name? , posted on April 4, 2014 at 08:25:50
tinear
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 Godowsky IS the test of time.

 

"Godowsky IS the test of time", posted on April 4, 2014 at 15:54:22
Chris from Lafayette
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 OK - but there's a lot left unsaid in that assertion.

Certainly, no one would rationally deny that LG must have been one of his era's greatest pianists, based on both contemporaneous accounts of his playing and his psychedelically elaborate piano compositions and transcriptions. Judged only by his recordings however, the picture is far less clear. There are accounts that he used to freeze up in the recording studio and that he was so unhappy with some of these studio efforts that he actually begged his friends NOT to listen to his recordings.

I don't always agree with Jed Distler on Classics Today, but he is a legitimate and knowledgeable critic. Looking at Distler's reviews of the complete Godowsky recordings as they've come out on the Marston label, we can see that they're all over the place, going from a 5/10 to a 9/10, and laced with phrases such as "pedestrian, rhythmically stiff results", "clunky", "impossibly square", "wooden", "perfunctory", "rhythmic lurchings" - you get the idea. OTOH, Distler rightly draws attention to the pianist's gorgeous voicings and tonal balances in some pieces (to the extent we can hear such qualities in these ancient recordings). The point is that Godowsky's playing as heard via recordings is very much a mixed bag.

At one point, I did own a large selection of Godowsky recordings (I believe on the apr label), but to be honest, I don't remember the Carnaval performance at all. (I do get annoyed sometimes about sub-par sound quality.)

But to be fair, I wouldn't push a hyperbolic assertion like "Godowsky IS the test of time", especially in view of the mixed results he attained in the recording studio.

 

Found another one - Gilels, posted on April 5, 2014 at 04:50:27
andy evans
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 Gilels is pretty good - live concert on Youtube. Pretty bad piano sound, though.

 

You have heard of him, you owned many of his recordings. My point is that, posted on April 5, 2014 at 14:32:47
tinear
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Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
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 IS the test of time. As far as quality of recordings, most artists are all over the place, though you also have to note the time period.
Godowsky was worshipped by his peers, by the young players that lionized him. No, Chris, he was not an empty suit.
Is Jon such a legend? In a hundred years, will two guys on an audio forum discuss his merits? Humbly, I'd argue "no."
There is an unfortunate current tendency to attack the legends of old, feeling perhaps that it makes the newer artists somehow gain in stature.

 

I am not surprsied by that...., posted on April 5, 2014 at 17:39:08
kuma
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 how about Uchida's Carnaval?

 

Sorry, tin - that doesn't make a lot of sense, posted on April 5, 2014 at 19:49:07
Chris from Lafayette
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 No one said LG was an empty suit, but you seem to think that because he was worshiped by his peers, that fact automatically makes his recordings worthwhile? Given all the problems with them (some by LG's own admission!), I'm afraid I don't see the logic in that. Sure, they have a theoretical interest, but I'd guess that most listeners would be disappointed by them. Of course, I guess there will always be listeners who flatter themselves that they can "hear past the flaws" of the big names of the past. (Or, perhaps, they aren't even aware of these flaws?)

Frankly, I think in a hundred years, performances will have moved on and folks in the future will mainly be interested in performances from their time, as, by and large, they should be.

No one is attacking LG - just trying to put things in a different perspective from the hero-worship of big names to which some here are prone.

 

Yes - I don't buy into Godowsky's legend, posted on April 6, 2014 at 04:45:17
andy evans
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 I don't know LG's entire output, but I'd put him some way down from my favourites of that era - Hofmann, Rachmaninov and somewhere in the pack with Rosenthal, Friedman, Pachman, Paderewski, Koczalski. Probably below them for my taste. I didn't like his Carnaval much. There's much I haven't heard from him, though, to be fair. Just going on what I have heard.

 

RE: Schumann Carnaval - favourites?, posted on April 6, 2014 at 19:29:44
P.C.
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 pbarach,I could be wrong but I don't think Perahia has recorded Carnival. Or did you have a live performance in mind?
Has anybody mentioned Michelangeli yet?. This and Faschingsschwank aus Wien along with the Concerto was a much peformed staple of his.

 

RE: Schumann Carnaval - favourites?, posted on April 7, 2014 at 04:07:04
pbarach
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 My memory slip--no, Perahia hasn't recorded Carnaval. Sorry...

 

Your comprehension on this elementary point appears minimal., posted on April 8, 2014 at 08:07:02
tinear
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 It is 100 years on.
Godowsky is still legendary.
You yourself admit to having owned many recordings.
If being worshipped by one's peers, critics, and later musicians isn't valid, what is? What yardstick would you apply?
Certainly, if I was invested in listening to recent recordings of the highest audio standards by young upstarts who look good in evening wear, I'd also like to fool myself that these artistes are the match or better than previous generations' stars.
But I just can't.
And you shouldn't, either.

 

The point isn't our opinions. It is the judgment of history. That is done. He is legendary. One also may, posted on April 8, 2014 at 08:15:05
tinear
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Location: Kansas City, KS
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 argue that Lillian Gish or John Barrymore aren't great actors, but the fact is they were the megastars of their era, immensely popular with audiences and critics, both. Still, today, many of the latter still highly rate them.
At any rate, I very much appreciate the flow, passion, and vision of Godowsky's, "Carnaval." Schnabel also was known to be lackadaisical, occasionally, with strict note-playing. As was Edwin Fischer. I like all of them...

 

C'mon, tin - this is getting pathetic, posted on April 8, 2014 at 08:32:48
Chris from Lafayette
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 The only reason I even mentioned Godowsky is because YOU brought him up.

 

Yes but I just compared Godowsky with Rach., Hofmann et al!, posted on April 9, 2014 at 00:03:24
andy evans
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Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 One also might argue that Lillian Gish or John Barrymore aren't great actors, but the fact is they were the megastars of their era, immensely popular with audiences and critics, both."

Fine, they were stars. But you're also making a critical judgement of Godowsky's playing, not just the public popularity, and when you do that guys like me will tell you that Rachmaninov, Hofmann and a few others of the era were - in their eyes - better pianists.

It's this you don't seem to be able to take.

 

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