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the problem with Nagnepans ....

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Posted on February 4, 2023 at 20:04:29
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 once you own them regular conventional piston speakers sound "boxy"

just listened to about 5 different high end speakers today and you can really notice the cabinet resonances - yuck

 

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RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 4, 2023 at 21:18:57
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Simplistic 'review'. I prefer good dynamic speakers. You don't. Apples and oranges.

 

Apples and oranges for sure. , posted on February 4, 2023 at 21:27:42
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 But this is an oranges (or apples, whichever, but not both) forum...

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 4, 2023 at 21:31:48
bluesy41
Audiophile

Posts: 163
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: February 20, 2018
 So do you believe that the bigger Magnepan's are not dynamic? If so listen again my friend and not at some audio store where they're not properly setup. You will be amazed.

 

all I am saying about the Magnepans is ......., posted on February 4, 2023 at 22:20:30
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 once you have lived with them for a while you can notice box resonances that - at least in my case - where not apparent when I had piston drivers.

example :

just heard some Vanderstien 3 speakers and while they defiantly had low bass there was a tendency for the woofer to homogenize instruments in the lower octaves - a double bass was deep and powerful but it also sounded like a woofer was making the music - not an acoustic string instrument. I am not saying it was to any extreme degree but JUST enough for me to notice now that I have magneplaner speakers. Actually there have been box speakers I like but literally none under about 10 grand and they had ACCUTON ceramic drivers . All mini monitors sound constipated to me but there are a few I have not heard which I suspect are killer such as TAD and Oswall Mill. Wharfedale has an interesting monitor with AMT TWEETER / Dome mid range / small woofer for a grand which is really nice but I think the LRS still beats it over all ..... but if you are short on space check it out - alot of bang for the buck !

 

RE: all I am saying about the Magnepans is ......., posted on February 5, 2023 at 01:59:24
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
 It's not so much a "boxy resonance" - cabinets, even ported ones, absorb the energy of the cone and then release it over time into the room, distorting the bass transients and textures in the time domain. It's just physics. The energy pumped into the box by the cone has to go somewhere, and even if the box is super stiff and completely non-resonant, it's still going to store energy then release it back over some period of time. The least offensive of the monkey-coffin bass reproducers are well-made transmission line speakers which seem not to show this problem as mush as other box types.

And it's not just the fact that there is a cone acting as the piston instead of a panel: open baffle subwoofers give you the closest match to "panel speaker" sub-bass around.

I started with ESL-57's then set up tri-amped MG 3.6's using DEQX and then added Rhythmic/ GR servo open baffle subs, with another DEQX. (The DEQXs not only provide linear-phase crossovers, they also correct for amplitude response, phase and group delay.) So... yeah, there's a certain sound that I really love when there's no box.


==================================================
Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 5, 2023 at 08:41:56
Davey
 It depends upon how you define "dynamic." :)

Since Magnepan's are velocity sources and not pressure sources, they don't have the inherent physical capability of some other speakers.

I don't anymore, but I've listened to some home speakers that were literally gut-wrenching and ear-abusing. Not an enjoyable experience, but something not physically possible with Magnepan speakers.

Magnepan speakers are just like all speakers. They all have trade-offs.
They don't have boxy resonances....but they do have panel resonances, complicated radiation characteristics, low efficiency, and various other things that are checkmarks in the bad column.

Dave.

 

It's difficult to spell?, posted on February 5, 2023 at 10:06:25
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 Sorry rob, I couldn't resist. ;^)

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

My initial thought from the title., posted on February 5, 2023 at 10:47:38
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Spouses/partners who nag about Magnepans = Nagnepans. Catchy.

 

I left it on purpose...... , posted on February 5, 2023 at 11:38:01
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 when I noticed the spelling I elected to not correct it - for a joke.

I immediately thought of some poor schmuck - who's wife was not happy that he had spent a lot of money on planar speakers

 

RE: I left it on purpose...... , posted on February 5, 2023 at 13:06:17
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 My wife's very supportive (get it? Sorry, dad humor) of my Magnepan craziness.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 5, 2023 at 13:27:06
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 3817
Joined: August 1, 2002
 Those radiation patterns, ok in the bass, helps to tame room lf resonances. Figure 8 pattern in the bass.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 5, 2023 at 17:13:20
Davey
 I wasn't talking about bass radiation patterns.

Dave.

 

Dont get me wrong, but...-, posted on February 5, 2023 at 18:14:27
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37650
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 you're not listening to the right "boxes".

The big Nolas and Scaenas are pretty much resonance-free,

 

Sorry Davey , posted on February 5, 2023 at 18:17:43
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 3817
Joined: August 1, 2002
 "They don't have boxy resonances....but they do have panel resonances, complicated radiation characteristics, low efficiency, and various other things that are checkmarks in the bad column."

I guess I ran with that.

 

sounds like she is an athletic supporter ....... n/t, posted on February 5, 2023 at 22:18:34
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 ...... snort

 

Sorry..., posted on February 5, 2023 at 22:43:27
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 It was a play on words about my stands, support struts... bad joke.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 6, 2023 at 18:52:36
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That lateral crossover lobing is a killer. I'm still waiting for a line source that uses an array like the ESL-63.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 6, 2023 at 19:53:59
bluesy41
Audiophile

Posts: 163
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: February 20, 2018
 I don't I guess either I'm novice listener or just have an incredible pair of specially built Magnepan's LOL. I get great dynamics, realism, transparency and clarity in my setup. Maybe it's a product of gear, setup and room but they give me everything I desire in a speaker. I don't know what the perfect speaker is, don't know if theirs any such thing. I was pretty damn close to buying the Vandersteen Kento speaker which is marvelous IMO but it just didn't move me like the 20.7's. At least not at double the price. I also tried the Magico S5 and again good speaker but IMO not worth the dough. When I played female voices or pianos on the Kento and the S5 I didn't get the size and realism I've come accustomed to with Magnepan's. I know it's subjective but it's my preference. Cheers

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 7, 2023 at 09:11:57
Davey
 Yeah, it's complicated.

In many ways, a full-range line-array setup like the IDS-25 would be a preferable setup.

Dave.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 8, 2023 at 08:11:12
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 It would be great, but how do you make a good driver that covers that range?
A lateral M-T-M system would work pretty well too if you could get the central tweeter(s) narrow enough. One idea I've toyed with is a triple ribbon -- single magnet assembly with 1" midrange ribbons on either side of a narrow tweeter strip. You can't run an all aluminum ribbon that low without metal fatigue issues, but you could make an Apogee-style Mylar ribbon.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 8, 2023 at 11:38:47
InfinityApogee
Audiophile

Posts: 237
Location: Sk
Joined: February 14, 2014
 Josh, Get hold of a Apogee Scintilla MRT unit, its foil only ribbon and solve the issue, Its the best other than a FR unit

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 9, 2023 at 01:09:54
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Doesn't the Apogee Scintilla MRT unit need a lot of power at a very low impedance?

 

Check this out. , posted on February 9, 2023 at 07:17:25
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Xx
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Check this out. , posted on February 9, 2023 at 13:49:28
InfinityApogee
Audiophile

Posts: 237
Location: Sk
Joined: February 14, 2014
 Well I don't find them any worse than a Magnepan, a lot of the amps people are using here, will drive them just fine, UNLESS your death of course. I listen to mos music around 75 db :)

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 9, 2023 at 23:40:58
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 As I understand it, the problem with the the foil midrange ribbons is that they get metal fatigue and fail. IIRC, someone from Apogee said that a high number of ribbon failures contributed to its demise. Years ago, I asked Mark Winey, and he said the same thing -- you can't make a robust one because of metal fatigue. (The Magnepan tweeter ribbons can also get it after several years if you play them at natural levels, but few people do. They last like forever at lower ones.)

 

Regarding ribbon midranges..., posted on February 11, 2023 at 06:34:43
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 has anyone at Magnepan, to your knowledge, experimented with metals other than aluminum? I would think certain other metals would have significantly less fatigue problems than aluminum, while still being reasonably conductive. Aluminum has a well-known low fatigue tolerance. I ask these questions in the setting of being very far from highly knowledgeable on metallurgy.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Regarding ribbon midranges..., posted on February 11, 2023 at 18:41:14
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Possibly, but if they have, I've never heard about it. Mass is absolutely paramount here and that in and of itself places a limit on the metals that can be considered. But I'm no more a metallurgist than you are, so have no idea if there's something exotic out there.

 

RE: the problem with Nagnepans ...., posted on February 19, 2023 at 18:31:54
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I married a NagNePan.....
Too much is never enough

 

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