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Planar vs horn vs ...

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Posted on November 4, 2021 at 17:46:32
jlugovid@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: November 4, 2021
 Hi,

My name is Juan. Iīm from Spain (Europe). I am 42 years old. Father of three children of 3, 5 and 7 years old (Iīm never bored.... hahaha). I work on a real estate company. We make buildings and sell the homes. Sorry for my horrible english. Letīs hope you understand me.

As long as I can remember, I have enjoyed music. I also liked machines and electronic components, so itīs not uncommon that I have finished here.

Many months searching webs, forums, shows, videos, "expert" opinions, "commercial" opinions, sellers with "interests", sellers "without any interest"... Hi-Fi world is a long trip, a difficult trip with "shine" products and (at least) a five digit price... A jungle for rich men. A paradise for the new economies. Another "economic bubble"... If you are a person like me, with little knowledge, itīs easy to be scared...

I'm looking to set up a hi-fi system. I'm using Qobuz streaming service (no CDīs and no vinyls at the moment, but the idea is to start with vinyls soon).

What Iīm lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic and intimate experience (the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert), warm sound (Iīm not closed to neutral fidelity but I donīt want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I donīt want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean high sensitivity speakers??).

It is clear that itīs absolutely necessary to hear the speakers "in person". The problem: I live in a region with no specific audio commerces and, also, many of the brands in which Iīm interested have no distribution on my country. In most cases also, an offical distributor doesnīt guarantees that they are going to have in stock speakers to hear them, beacuse with specific models they only work on request. Not to mention those distributors that strongly advise against one of their own brands (maybe they have more interest in selling the other brands they have).

Consequently, the comments and suggestions of people like you are really important to me (experts advices from people with many speakers "on his shoulders").

Letīs talk about my room. Itīs a big space of 41 square meters (if Iīm not mistaken they are 441,33 square feet aprox.). The speakers are at 13 feet between each other and they are at 2 feet from the wall. The sofa is at 12 feet from the speakers aprox. This is my actual room. No specific treatment. Is a rented home so Iīm not going (I canīt) make any change. In two years Iīll go to a new home. The dimensions of the new "audio space" will be similar or even bigger.

Music preferences (right now Iīm really eclectic and I like a lot of music genres): soul, jazz, classics and a lot of rock (thatīs the reason of looking to deep bass capable speakers).

Devices: I will choose the Power Amp + Pre + DAC + Streamer + turntable after choosing the speakers. All new. (In principle I prefer valves).

I'm not closed to any technology or possibility; Iīm not an expert. My last "battle" seems to be between horn vs planar speakers. As I can see Audio Asylum is the home of planar speakers with a specific section on the forum. Planar speakers seem a sweet option.

Some questions,

1) Are planar speakers the best option to obtain an holographic, 3D image sound?? It is said that this is the best attribute of the panels speakers. Can the horns (or any other technology) compete in this aspect??

2) Horns are really efficient speakers. Can panels compete in this aspect?? It's possible to drive panels with few watts from valve amps??

3) Are panels compatible with low level volumes??

4) It is said that panels are really difficult speakers to place in the room?? I know that they can't be near a wall but are they really problematic speakers to obtain the 100% of them??

5) Everyone is talking lately about Alsyvox speakers. Alsyvox is the brand of the Italian Daniele Coen. Curiously this brand is based on my country, Spain. I can't hear yet them personally. What is the general opinion about this speakers?? Someone has heard them??

6) Alsyvox ribbon pannels are really expensive. In general panels are less expensive than other speakers technologies but "curiously" it's not the case with Alsyvox. It is justified this price??

7) Any speaker recommendation?? I' m looking to speakers to die for. I want the most holographic experience compatible with low level volumes. Any recommendation would be appreciated. I'm open to any technology/brand??

Thanks in advance to everyone for your interest. Stay healthy.

 

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RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 4, 2021 at 17:53:29
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 give us your total budget that you can spend for the whole system ?

these speakers you talk about are extremely expensive - do you have a huge budget ?

if you do I know about and have heard many amazing systems

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 4, 2021 at 18:32:20
jlugovid@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: November 4, 2021
 My budget is high but in many cases more money is not a guarantee of better sound experience. And I say this because, precisely, panels are speakers that are not, in general, expensive in comparison with others technologies (with the exception of Alsyvox, hahaha) and many people said that panels beat speakers of more price, specially in the holographic experience. And that's what I'm looking for...-

 

you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 4, 2021 at 19:19:06
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 they'll get you your sound stage and presence and make your heart beat fast, but it takes a good amp (even better would be a pair) to bring out their full potential.

A lot of folks like the Magtech amps paired with the big 'Maggies' as they're called. Ditto for Pass Labs. From there I'd look at a good tube preamp. I personally use a Audio Research LS26 which sounds great but they have far better models up their line that sound even better.

You might look into a good DAC for your streamer as well.

Once you move into your house you can upgrade everything (except the Maggies of course)









 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 4, 2021 at 19:27:41
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 ok I understand

I have heard hundreds of high end systems andd there was one very special speaker that I recommend to you which is not a Planer or a Horn or Cone !

the company is called German Physiks - I VISITED THEIR ROOM 4 TIMES AT THE BIG SHOW IN LOS ANGELES ... IT WAS THAT GOOD

and of course they are in Germany

I recommend if you are going to spend thousands of Euro you find a dealer in Europe and hear them - they are a completely different sound experience unlike any other speaker

one other that I have NOT heard which is also very special from Germany is called Manger which is a special one of a kind speaker that only they make - I have heard wonderful things about it

 

RE: you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 4, 2021 at 19:41:31
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 I agree w green lantern's sentiment here. I have 20.7s - every time I listen to them it's a 'damn that sounds good' experience. I am like the OP - give me soundstage ..give me holographic imaging. I think this is the 20s strong suit. There is a realness / organic sound that I love about these speakers.

 

Are planar speakers the best option to obtain an holographic, 3D image sound??, posted on November 5, 2021 at 03:56:36
SteveJewels
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: OH
Joined: August 11, 2018
 In a word, yes.

I have Magneplanar Tympani IVa speakers which never cease to amaze me. It is as though the sound materializes out of thin air rather than emanating from a physical source.

While I do not share your preference for valves, if you find the right combination I am sure the results will be wonderful.

Although Maggies (Magneplanar speakers) perform well with lower powered amps they come into their own with amps able to supply abundant current.

Your desire of 'holographic' sound would be certainly accomplished with 20.7s.

If you would consider solid state amplification, Pass Labs amps and preamps are a superb choice. A valve preamp and a Pass Labs amp may achieve the sound you like.

 

German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 03:59:05
G Squared
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Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
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Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 is a great recommendation. They are holographic with the right recordings.
Gsquared

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 12:35:40
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Echo your statements. Have the Ohm F's for decades. These are much better and took the Ohm F design to the next level

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 13:47:26
SteveJewels
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: OH
Joined: August 11, 2018
 What is the technology of the driver?

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 14:40:37
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Single driver piston, aluminum cone, facing down into lambs wool and sand, ribbon tweeter one or two I forgot. Used a Mac to drive them bought mine in the early 70's, replaced them with Comostatic omni directional electrostatics with with cone drivers, a similar concept to the Ohm F- the German Physics speakers has them beat but they are $25000, last time I looked; but they have a big foot print compared to the Maggies 20.7

 

Have you listened to electrostatics?, posted on November 5, 2021 at 15:11:17
jimbill
Audiophile

Posts: 3050
Location: Texas
Joined: May 31, 2004
 They check a lot of your boxes.

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 18:13:20
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 they make a model called HRS-130 which is small and sounds amazing

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 18:52:56
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 I will check it out. But the single piston design needs no crossovers and omni directional was the closest to being in a concert hall that I have experienced--It is the power of the mid-bass to the bass where most of the music is that is so remarkable. The mag 30.7 is wonderful but a different kind of experience, the former are much less room sensitive. The German Physics is a more refined designed that either of the two speakers I owned.
King speakers make an omni directional electro static sold in the west and I have not heard it but it was manufactured in Hong Kong. You have to be leery about buying a speaker that entails heavy shipping costs in case of repair.
Magneplaners do not have that problem so I lean to them, In NYC there is no one who sell German Physics much less the King's Three of the best stereo stores have closed in the last 3 years. Just one standing on 56th St.

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 18:58:18
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 The 130 is close to the designs of the OHM f and to some extent the Cosmostatics. No doubt it is the speaker to halve if they are reliable and do not break down like the Ohm F often did and the cosmostatic. Where did you hear them I would travel.
Got the $ for the moment.

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 20:26:12
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 25 grand + and 9% taxes

 

RE: German Physics, posted on November 5, 2021 at 22:25:18
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
 I have been to T.H.E. audiophile show in southern California 3 times

the standouts for me :

1) A 904 Altec concentric vintage speaker which had been converted to a field coil speaker driven with high end turntable - amazing

2) any of the speakers which use ACCUTON ceramic drivers - jaw dropping

3) German Physiks as noted above

4) Full money no object MBL system driven by reel to reel playing Princes "pop life "

5) Audio note triode system with silver wire voice coil and silver transformers - playing Cello with a live Cello player alternating with speakers for a direct comparison

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 5, 2021 at 22:33:15
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Hi Juan,

Your English is very good, no worries. Welcome to this forum!

I have owned a lot of speakers of most types--horns (Klipsch and Altec), Magnepans, electrostatics (Quad ESLs and ESL-63s) and can offer the following observations.

Depending on where you live, Quads might not be the best choice. They do not do well at very high altitudes (see original review in Stereophile) and they don't like high humidity. They are extremely revealing, high resolution speakers with very low coloration. They will not play at extremely high volumes and they will not have punch-you-in-the-stomach bass. I play a lot of classical music and opera, and in this area they are unsurpassed in my opinion.

Because of their high efficiency, horns play very well with tube electronics and, generally, work well with very low power amplifiers, tube SETs being popular with many fans. They are very dynamic and are very clear and clean at low volumes. I find them overly forward and colored in general, but if you want huge dynamics and high volume, you might want to look at them. The new Klipsch Heritage speakers--Klipschorns, LaScalas and Cornwalls have been getting good reviews. Big sound for your large space!

In the area of dynamic speakers, I would recommend Bowers and Wilkins' speakers as good all-around performers. They are detailed, reasonably dynamic and the larger models like the 800 or 801s can produce high volume without distortion and clean bass. I have an old pair of Matrix 801 IIs and they are, easily, the most detailed and revealing dynamic speakers I have owned. Get a good, high-powered, solid state amp for them.

I think it is very, very important for you to go to a city where you can hear a lot of models--perhaps an audio exhibition in a European city (Munich, Berlin, London??) where you can listen to a lot of speakers. If you have the money to buy some high-end components, you can afford to do this. You ought to hear speakers in person rather than relying on forums such as this to make buying decisions.

Speakers are the first thing to buy, then buy electronics that will work well with your speakers. I agree with another poster that Pass Lab power amps are very good components. I bought a used Pass X-250.5, and it is the best solid state amplifier I have heard to date.

You are embarking on a wonderful hobby, and I wish you well in finding a system that meets your every need and desire!

 

audiotools, posted on November 6, 2021 at 18:49:33
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
 http://audiotools.com/en_mags_hifi_de.html

language issue sidestp



/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 7, 2021 at 09:55:56
ACHiPo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Location: California
Joined: March 26, 2016
 Here's a review of the German Physiks Borderland Mk IV

https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/germanphysiks/1.html
https://www.german-physiks.com/german-physiks-loudspeakers

MBL is another European company to consider:
https://www.hifinews.com/content/mbl-radialstrahler-101-e-mkii-loudspeaker

I've never heard these or the MBLs but I want to! They are not terribly efficient so you will need to get a good amp or two to drive them.

Have you heard the Alsyvox? I've heard great things about them (and they are planars)

 

Well if we're talking money not really being an issue , posted on November 7, 2021 at 13:30:32
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 I would go with a Maggie 30.7


or either one of these:



(top: the Apogee 'grand', bottom: simply 'The Apogee')





After finding one of the above two, I'd ship it out to True soundworks for a complete restoration and call it a day, pretty much a life speaker (for me anyway)









 

RE: Well if we're talking money not really being an issue , posted on November 7, 2021 at 13:45:38
SteveJewels
Audiophile

Posts: 244
Location: OH
Joined: August 11, 2018
 I like the way you think. :)

When I win the lottery I will ask you to advise me on a sound system.

 

RE: Well if we're talking money not really being an issue , posted on November 7, 2021 at 17:09:22
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 I've been trying to win the lotto too for the past 30 yrs lol.

I'm humbled by your request, but I'm sure - in fact I know there are far better persons here than I to take on an assignment like that, but I would definitely tag along for the fun of it : ).

Off topic but I saw on a prior post you're currently residing in my hometown Dayton Ohio. I left there in '82 and have since called San Diego my home. Me and the wife was recently there back in Sept to visit family, great time!

If you haven't yet check out Audio Elegance up the road in Cincinnati, they're an authorized Maggie dealer. Afterwards walk across the parking lot and check out Montgomery Inn BBQ, the best in Ohio!









 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 7, 2021 at 18:02:16
Rod M
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  Since: March 1, 1999
 1) Are planar speakers the best option to obtain an holographic, 3D image sound?? It is said that this is the best attribute of the panels speakers. Can the horns (or any other technology) compete in this aspect??

Either technologies can meet your desires. However, it will be highly dependent on the room and set up. Generally, horns are easier as they can be placed closer to the wall whereas panel speakers usually require being placed further out in the room to sound their best.


2) Horns are really efficient speakers. Can panels compete in this aspect?? It's possible to drive panels with few watts from valve amps??

In a word no. Panels generally require most powerful SS amps. Because horns are more efficient, tube amps can be used. Horns also tend to be more dynamic.

3) Are panels compatible with low level volumes??

I don't know. My horns have the same imaging characteristics for the most part at low volumes. Of course, most speakers do bloom with a bit more power.

4) It is said that panels are really difficult speakers to place in the room?? I know that they can't be near a wall but are they really problematic speakers to obtain the 100% of them??

The biggest difficulty is having a large enough room to bring the panels out into the room.


5) Everyone is talking lately about Alsyvox speakers. Alsyvox is the brand of the Italian Daniele Coen. Curiously this brand is based on my country, Spain. I can't hear yet them personally. What is the general opinion about this speakers?? Someone has heard them??

Yes, I did hear them at the RMAF show some years ago. You can see my thoughts about Alsyvox in the link. You'll notice that they were placed in the middle of the room and you know that they're quite expensive. Not being a big panel fan, we all still thought that these were one of the overall best of the show.

RMAF 2018 w/Alsyvox

6) Alsyvox ribbon pannels are really expensive. In general panels are less expensive than other speakers technologies but "curiously" it's not the case with Alsyvox. It is justified this price??

The high end, full range panels are tend to be expensive.

7) Any speaker recommendation?? I' m looking to speakers to die for. I want the most holographic experience compatible with low level volumes. Any recommendation would be appreciated. I'm open to any technology/brand??

If you wanted to find used speakers, there are many Altecs that might fit your needs, VOT A7/500, Valencia, Model 19. The Klipsch Heritage series may be found at dealers in Spain.

Good luck.


-Rod

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 7, 2021 at 20:59:51
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
 I have never heard a horn speaker that didn't sound colored, "shouty" and slowed down in the bass. The JBL Everest were the best horn systems I've heard, and their bass had too much in the way of stored energy coloration for me. Plus they cost a fortune.

I've heard many of the $$$ field-coil speakers, and also the Avant Garde and the costly Acapella speakers. They all sound like 1958 to me. I just can't hear past the coloration and bass energy storage issues. Some people like the kind of coloration they introduce- the same way they like the added distortion of single ended triodes and the many kinds of noise and distortion introduced by vinyl playback. These are all personal preferences, and you will not know what kind of playback sound YOU like until you listen to some different speakers in rooms similar to yours- there's just no way to "hear" how things sound by reading reviews or online fora. You will really need to visit some dealer showrooms to hear these things. Another option is to find a local Audio Society - many times members of Audio Societies welcome visitors into their homes to hear their systems.

You really need to hear things for yourself, in order to work out your preferences.


===============================
Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

Naturally, I'd choose..., posted on November 8, 2021 at 10:30:36
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 however large array of current production SLs would fit in the space. Double U-945s would be quite nice!





 

RE: Naturally, I'd choose..., posted on November 8, 2021 at 17:24:01
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 EStat. I've never heard sound labs. I've heard other stats. I can't imagine the ginormous soundstage this little 3 ft man can produce in these speakers. Can you define the sound lab sound??

 

RE: Naturally, I'd choose..., posted on November 9, 2021 at 05:39:57
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 I can't imagine the ginormous soundstage this little 3 ft man can produce in these speakers.

Nine foot tall speakers can make it look that way. ;)

I've been an electrostat fancier since I was a teen in the 70s and have heard a wide range of designs starting with Dayton-Wrights. My least favorite are the hybrids as they lack coherency to these ears.

What the Sound Labs achieve is the output and first octave capability of larger Acoustats mated with the midrange transparency of Quads. Add the presentation of a realistic sounding image as a dipolar line source along with wide dispersion via the angled facets of 90 degree cores. What I find amazing is how little the sound quality changes as you move around the room. Sitting. Standing. In front of them. Behind. Close. Far away.

On another board, I contributed a video of playing a dynamic piece while walking around the room with my iPhone. One thought I had recorded it with the microphone in a fixed position.

 

RE: Naturally, I'd choose..., posted on November 9, 2021 at 15:08:04
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 I can believe that. My 20.7 do similar. No particular area sounds all that different. I was especially sensitive this when I first got them walking around the room or out of the room

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 9, 2021 at 16:30:26
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I largely agree with your sentiment but would really like to hear one particular design that is very different from most. Especially when it comes to coherency which is near and dear to my heart.

The Danley SH50 is one of many similar models in their line. It employs a single "mouth" for all frequencies with controlled directivity and can be used in arrays like my SL stats to increase horizontal or vertical coverage. It would, however, need low bass reinforcement.

 

RE: Naturally, I'd choose..., posted on November 10, 2021 at 16:15:13
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Tall line source + nearly perfect dispersion thanks to the narrow ribbon -- pretty much the only thing that will change in a major way are the crossover lobes!

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 10, 2021 at 16:55:31
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 1) Are planar speakers the best option to obtain an holographic, 3D image sound?? It is said that this is the best attribute of the panels speakers. Can the horns (or any other technology) compete in this aspect??

Planars are the clear winners here, but they do have to be out in the room to develop full depth. Sadly, imaging is an area in which horns are very weak.

2) Horns are really efficient speakers. Can panels compete in this aspect?? It's possible to drive panels with few watts from valve amps??

If you can find planars with neodynium magnets, yes, but they cost an arm and a leg, partly because the magnets are expensive and partly because they tend to be esoteric models produced in low quantity. Maggies are inefficient and require a large amp; their philosophy is that neodynium magnets add more to the total cost than a larger amp does.

3) Are panels compatible with low level volumes??

Electrostatics are. Maggies are known for needing a higher level to bloom. The current models are better than the old ones, particularly the true ribbon models (the true ribbons themselves have no issue with low levels). In general, this is not a forte of planar magnetics/quasi ribbons; horns and stats are the clear winner here.

Horns win over panels and dynamics at high levels.

4) It is said that panels are really difficult speakers to place in the room?? I know that they can't be near a wall but are they really problematic speakers to obtain the 100% of them??

Yes. Planars have to be out from the wall -- 3' is the minimum, they start to sound great at 5'. And they require careful positioning, but that's kind of fun, since you're listening to music. And it isn't hard to do -- just move them in a bit at aa time until the center image gels. You may also try to move them and/or your chair in the Z axis to even out the bass -- this works the same as with any speaker.

One advantage of planars -- they're harder to position, but they interact less with the room, so require less treatment. Horns, though, are also relatively indifferent to room acoustics since they're directional, and they're easier to place.

5) Everyone is talking lately about Alsyvox speakers. Alsyvox is the brand of the Italian Daniele Coen. Curiously this brand is based on my country, Spain. I can't hear yet them personally. What is the general opinion about this speakers?? Someone has heard them??

Wish I had, they look good on paper.

6) Alsyvox ribbon pannels are really expensive. In general panels are less expensive than other speakers technologies but "curiously" it's not the case with Alsyvox. It is justified this price??

Among true ribbons, I doubt that you can do better than the 30.7 -- even the apogees, thanks to the new high quality midrange, which is so good that it performs like a true ribbon.

Among planars, I suspect you'd be happiest with the 30.7 -- you really need to get into the six figure range to beat it. But again, I haven't heard the Alsyvox.

7) Any speaker recommendation?? I' m looking to speakers to die for. I want the most holographic experience compatible with low level volumes. Any recommendation would be appreciated. I'm open to any technology/brand??

I'm biased -- I've always owned Maggies, in part because the larger ones seem to me a great compromise compromise between the clarity of electrostatics (an attribute which horns share to a great extent) and the punch of dynamics. And nothing here is really going to be perfect.

But from what you've said, I think that ESL's might be your best bet -- great spatial reproduction (a major weakness of horns), great at low levels, and the most transparent speakers I've ever heard, besting even ribbons and horns in that regard.

As others said, avoid the hybrids like Martin Logan, the woofers don't blend and their curved panels have issues. The Sound Labs are superb but huge. King Sounds -- they gave up on distribution here in the states, not sure what the story is in Europe, but if you can, they're worth a listen. The Sanders ESL's are excellent, but they beam and are too head in a vice for me. I guess that leaves the King Sounds and the Sounds Labs, not necessarily in that order.

Apogees are excellent but long out of production, although you can find people who will repair them and sell parts. The same is true of many classic ESL's like the Acoustats, no official service or parts. Quads are a possibility -- they won't play very loud or image like a line source, but they're superb if you can live with their limitations.

If I were you, I'd go with ESL's; my second choice would be 30.7's.

 

Hybrids, posted on November 10, 2021 at 20:15:05
jimbill
Audiophile

Posts: 3050
Location: Texas
Joined: May 31, 2004
 Have you heard the ML Masterpiece series?

 

I find there's more to it..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 06:11:49
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Tall line source + nearly perfect dispersion thanks to the narrow ribbon...

I've heard both the 20.1 and 3.7 at Sea Cliff using similar electronics. While the 20.1 clearly had better first octave response, I found the 3.7 the more coherent.

You can pick apart the frequency ranges in the 20.1.

 

RE: Hybrids, posted on November 11, 2021 at 06:26:28
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I have not.

But placing the crossover at 380 hz - where the fundamentals of voice and most instruments lie - is problematic for truly coherent response transitioning cone woofers to electrostatic panels.

Had that choice been two octaves lower, however, (like my HT) I would likely find the discontinuity less noticeable.

At that budget, I would seriously consider 3.7s with subs.

 

I try not to pass judgement..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 09:23:47
jimbill
Audiophile

Posts: 3050
Location: Texas
Joined: May 31, 2004
 without evidence.

 

Nor I, but..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 10:15:06
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 do, however, draw from fifty years of experiential evidence and understand how inconsistent directivity affects my perception of realism.

To each his own. :)

 

RE: I find there's more to it..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 10:58:22
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yep, same thing with the 20.7 -- the speakers have become more coherent. I think the quasi ribbons make a difference -- they're cleaner and sound more like the ribbon. And I think the gentler crossovers make a difference as well, since the change is gradual.

The 30.7 is the most coherent of all -- they added a midbass coupler because they found that the bass panels muddied the sound of the midrange, and the new high quality midrange is amazing -- it measures like a tweeter and for all the size of the 30.7, for me, it's the midrange that stands out.

 

RE: Nor I, but..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:02:34
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Linkwitz wrote a paper -- it's on his site somewhere -- in which he posited that the frequency response of reflected sound has to be similar to the frequency response of the direct sound for the ear to interpret it as reverberation. I don't remember whether he did experiments to test his hypothesis, though.

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:04:23
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I've heard the MBL's at shows and they never impressed, but what with show conditions, that doesn't mean very much. I do know a speaker designer who heard them at Jonathan Valin's house and was blown away.

 

RE: you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:06:40
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Alas, my back will no longer support the Passes. :-(

 

RE: you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:07:41
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 The big Maggies have an almost uncanny realness to them, don't they.

 

RE: you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:20:17
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 They really do. Here is the thing with them - and it could be my room etc. but the sound just comes out of this emptiness. There is never this feel of a sound emanating from a speaker. It just exists.

 

With these observations..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 11:36:44
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I'm really not conveying a deliberate choice or thinking process. It's just how I've always been impacted by the sound. And I appreciate the fact that many others are not in the same way. I discovered that while I learned a considerable amount about music and audio from valuable mentors, I have different priorities than any of them. And those really haven't changed much over time.

Years ago, I visited a fellow inmate in Ohio during a business trip. My only disappointment was that it was only for an evening. He was quite the fine tuner and had a pair of tweaked Advents (my first "real" speaker as a teenager and what's found in the garage) and some JBL L110s. He played the Advents first and naturally, they sounded very familiar. With his stands and custom cabinets, I noticed better first octave bass than I was accustomed to. When we switched over to the JBLs, I heard a more neutral presentation with better top end extension. But - a big but - their inconsistent directivity created a weird hourglass shaped soundstage I immediately found distracting. It was only after I observed this that he listened further and began to understand what I perceived. He later retired them.

I cannot "un-hear" what I find compromises coherency and thus realism to these ears.

 

RE: With these observations..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 13:43:56
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I've noticed similar differences in soundstage. In fact, the first planars I'd heard, a pair of KLH-9's that a friend scored when we were in college, blew me away -- I'd never heard much of a soundstage at all! That, and the transparency, is what got me into planars. Even that was never quite right, though -- by today's standards, the driver arrangement on the KLH-9's is clumsy.

 

RE: With these observations..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 14:21:44
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I'd never heard much of a soundstage at all!

That's a concept that has many facets. What I find important is for the harmonics of an instrument to sound like it's coming from the same place as the fundamentals. Which is where consistent directivity comes into play.

...the driver arrangement on the KLH-9's is clumsy.

In that regard, I confess a decided preference for truly full range designs. The 9 is an electrostat that runs full range, but is not a full range electrostat as it has multiple frequency specific drivers. Hearing the Dayton-Wrights in '76 introduced me to that distinction. It had eight panels, but they were identical and covered the same range. And mounted in a slight arc to improve dispersion.



 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 11, 2021 at 20:33:35
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 As of precovid, King sounds had a distributor in LA .He starts with ridiculous prices but but settles for at least 30% from where he starts. I had other issues and did not pull the trigger.. In Europe the prices were much lower but impossible to get them back to the US safely.

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 13, 2021 at 16:58:32
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Good to know! What I heard was that King Sound stopped taking them to shows because there just isn't that much of a market for large planars -- Magnepan and Martin Logan pretty much have that market sewn up.

 

RE: With these observations..., posted on November 13, 2021 at 17:04:50
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I'm still waiting for someone to make a line source version of the ESL-63. It could have an essentially perfect line source dipole pattern, something that short of a speaker the size of the Sound Labs you can only approximate with facets or a curved driver since they remain directional only where the wavelength is short.

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 13, 2021 at 20:49:26
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Even with bargaining the King speakers would cost as much as the 20.7's or more.And the bass response of the latter was superior. But the cost of amplifiers was potentially less with a lot more alternatives. AND THEY DO NOT WEIGH MUCH COMPARED TO SOUND LABS or even the 20.7. .There was probably almost no domestic service which is something I could not have dealt with. The Canadian franchise did not seem viable either out in Manitoba. I was tempted . I could have lived with 30db level base response and not add sub woofers . I heard they did not beam and that made them interesting.Probably would be fun. Once owned ML clx originals from 1981 and they were clear but rattled at sound of organs . Went through panels quickly living in a loft and they kept on substituting ones from the later versions which made it after a while pretty screwed up. Threw them away.
Love the mags but cannot play them loud (and low they do not really cut it)for very long which is necessary for full enjoyment of them, because apt NYC living It is repair that is the 'buggeroo'.

 

Kent has come close with his eight panel flavor..., posted on November 14, 2021 at 06:48:18
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Click here for pics.

 

RE: Kent has come close with his eight panel flavor..., posted on November 15, 2021 at 04:40:22
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Interesting! It looks like it's still a point source, though -- a line source has some advantages such as immunity from the ill effects of floor and ceiling reflections (which in a line source just extend the line acoustically).

 

RE: Planar vs horn vs ..., posted on November 15, 2021 at 04:42:06
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I love those old, soundproof prewar apartments. We lived in one when I was a teen and would often have three stereos blasting at once!

 

RE: you can't go wrong with a pair of 20.7, posted on November 15, 2021 at 09:45:50
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 I don't know how to explain the following impression but I'll give it a shot:

Have you ever heard music playing from a speaker ie a jazz ensemble; and everyone's cooking: Piano, drums, upright bass, sax, and it sounds like they're coming right at you like a freight train barrelling down tracks? the 20x's (and I'm sure the 3x) do that often, all in a good way : )









 

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