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Calling all Upgraded Apogee and SANDERS 10e Owners

167.88.133.41
Posted on April 15, 2021 at 15:02:51
joe3
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: April 15, 2021
 This call goes out to what is likely a very small group. What is the likelihood that someone has owned BOTH an upgraded Apogee and a Sanders 10e and can give the rest of us an honest analysis and comparison of both the Apogee's and the Sander's 10e. What differences did you hear in soundstage? Dynamics? Coherence? Imaging? Bass? Bass extension? Size of sweet spot? Did you choose to live with Apogee or Sanders? And why? Yes, I know, that is a lot of questions . And if you have never owned both, but you have given BOTH the Sanders 10e and an upgraded Apogee an honest and thorough audition it would be great to hear from you. And please , no posts based on hearsay, you know, such as "mr. golden ears told me", "I have heard that", "the designer says", "the measurements say" or "did you read the guru's review in ..." . Just real owners relating real experiences. Thanks all for reading this post and stay safe

 

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stats vs ribbons, posted on April 15, 2021 at 19:13:41
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003



Never heard the Sanders but I currently own a pair of original (not refurbished) Apogee Duettas (2nd pair), I also own Magnepan MG20s.

For what it's worth they're both world class as far as I'm concerned and I could live happily-ever-after with either one.

The Apogee's (IMHO) are airier and crisper than the 20's, on certain recordings cymbals float, hover, and decay so well when tapped I often catch myself looking over at the exact spot where this is occurring.

The upper midrange and midrange is just as good and uncolored. The bass is worthy although I use a REL sub to fill in the deep grooves.

They're 'stat quick' when excited and create a extremely detailed and convincing soundstage. Visually they're aesthetically appealing as well (to me anyway).

Since you're not interested in comparisons to Magnepans I'll spare you the details although I do plan on doing a detailed comparisons sometime in the near future.

The Duettas in a nutshell are an astounding mid-line model; however, if you want to get first hand knowledge of the 'big boy' Apogees check out the Apogee page on facebook:



Those guys take Apogee's to a whole other level









 

Florian's system? -nt, posted on April 16, 2021 at 09:09:35
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002

 

yessir -nt, posted on April 16, 2021 at 12:33:35
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003









 

RE: Calling all Upgraded Apogee and SANDERS 10e Owners , posted on April 22, 2021 at 06:38:08
joe3
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: April 15, 2021
 LOL, I guess I picked one of the smallest group of listeners in all of audio to ask this question :) Perhaps Apogee and Sanders 10e owners are just so happy with their speakers that they are not on the forums. Stay safe everyone.

 

rare speakers, posted on April 22, 2021 at 14:01:08
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 apogees haven't been manufactured for decades, and the Sanders is a niche speaker. And you're looking for somebody who has listened to them simultaneously?

Sanders 10E I have heard myself at audio shows, and it is totally amazing---in its very narrow sweet spot.

 

RE: rare speakers, posted on April 22, 2021 at 14:03:49
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 the time or two I heard the Sanders, they were on 2 walls....call 'em 'corner loaded'.....which I suspect helps the sweet spot issue they doubtless DO have.

35 years ago, a buddy had the Apogee Stage which were VERY nice with his B&K amp.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: rare speakers, posted on April 22, 2021 at 16:57:38
joe3
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: April 15, 2021
 Simultaneously, you mean with a 10e on the left ear and an Apogee on the right ear? Or were you thinking that perhaps I meant when Sanders and Apogee shared the same room at one of the audio shows? :) , No Dr., I was hoping to hear from someone that owns or owned an Upgraded Apogee , the current ones, available today from Graz in Australia, or Rich Murray of True Sound Works, or Bill Thalmann of Music Technology. You see, the Apogee's are not extinct. I thought it likely that perhaps a current Apogee owner may have been intrigued to seek out and listen to Roger Sanders 10e's. Both have received rave reviews, but usually, the same person has not lived with both, or at least given both a fair audition. So I was curious to know, is the sweet spot of the Sanders really as small as some say, not a spot but a dot, or is that an exaggeration , and when coming out of the spot, is it any worse than coming out of any other speakers true sweet spot? Do the mid high frequencies drop like a stone and db levels fall. And how might an Apogee do by comparison. And similarly with speed, coherence, bass extension , dynamics, image height and soundstage depth. From my own experience with Apogees , I know that wth the right equipment and room set up they are stellar performers even before the new upgrades are made. So, I am bi polar curious to know how the Sanders 10e compare. I do thank you for your reply Dr. and would ask if you could, when you have time, provide a more detailed description of your "very narrow sweet spot" diagnosis. Just what did you find happening outside that spot and around the room.

 

FWIW Sanders has a 30 day risk free trial, posted on April 22, 2021 at 17:00:41
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Ditto for his magtech amp.

A no-brainer.

Personally I'd grab a pair of restored Diva's, not saying they're any better than the Sanders (or Innersound for that matter) I'm just a bit biased...













 

physics of high frequencies on Sanders, posted on April 22, 2021 at 23:52:25
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 The sanders doesn't have any segmentation for high frequency emisssion, it is across the full width of the planar driver. It is a single driver loudspeaker above the cutoff to the bass, which is around 200 Hz or less. That inevitably means at high frequencies the horizontal dispersion is low . I'd say a horizontal distance of maybe 24 inches was optimal sweet spot.

Outside the sweet spot it was quite pleasant walking around but the higher frequencies were missing of course, more for background music than serious listening. This was from my experience at the T.H.E. show a couple of times. Nevertheless in that sweet spot they were the best I heard at those respective shows and in my recent personal experience. The bass and its integration was also spot on brilliant. (I judge by diversified symphonic classical as the most difficult and with an absolute reference) If Sanders had made a segmented (e.g. electronically so like quad) ESL that fixed this problem I think I would feel compelled to own it.


Of course Apogees, like Magnepans, have narrow high frequency drivers and better horizontal dispersion.

I have never seen or even heard a modern refurbished Apogee, unfortunately. It would be fabulous no doubt. The Diva I heard many years ago at the Smithsonian is still in my memory as pointing out what could be possible.

By the way, I did hear some Analysis Audio speakers at one of those shows, they were good, but not OMG good, and otherwise seemed expensive, quite more than a Magnepan 20.7. There weren't even any Magnepan 3 series much less 20 at the show to compare to.

 

RE: physics of high frequencies on Sanders, posted on April 23, 2021 at 06:28:01
joe3
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: April 15, 2021
 Thanks Dr., your findings on the Sanders sweet spot were very helpful. My new listening room has to function as a home cinema as well. So, it seems like my guests sitting in the other seats may be missing quite a bit of the front left and right channel action with the Sanders. They may not even hear the light sabres. By way of comparison with the Divas , when I use the spectrum analyzer app on my iphone, I can walk back and forth across the soundstage without seeing a significant drop in spl and upper frequencies. :)

 

you have divas?, posted on April 23, 2021 at 17:35:26
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 No I don't think anything is going to get better than that other than maximum SPL.

lucky guy. How did you get those, and how are they holding up?

your reasoning is the same as mine, why I still have Maggie 3.6's, it has very good high frequency dispersion because of the very narrow tweeter.

Imaging is still only right in the center, but then again I'm the only person ever to care about that.

 

RE: you have divas?, posted on April 24, 2021 at 06:32:25
joe3
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: April 15, 2021
 Yes, I do have the Divas which I bought new from Apogee. Originally with the passive crossovers and then moved to the DAX. I much preferred the DAX. I have also been lucky with the Divas, so far no foam rot or ribbon issues. Every once in a while I get upgradeitis , go to an audio show , but so far
haven't heard anything that made me want to switch. Even after two decades, most of what I hear at the shows is nowhere close to the Divas. Was also very lucky from the beginning to find Ray Lumley Mono 100 tube amps which are a match made in heaven to drive the Apogees. For the fun of it, I tried Krell, Classe, Stax and Nakamichi Stasis (the ones designed by Nelson Pass) , The Lumley's wiped the floor with all of them so I gave up experimenting. I might try a new Class D on the bottom end just to see. Way back I had Maggies and I loved them. MG III I think, which is before they added that magic ribbon. It's very tall order for any other driver to come anywhere close to the sound of those line source ribbons.

 

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