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Tube vs. Solid State for Planars

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Posted on June 27, 2020 at 10:30:22
Taki888
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: May 15, 2020
 Hi,

So it is known fact higher output power tends to provide improved sound quality for the planars. My question, is there something different with tube amps vs solid state that lower
output power tube amp can still sound better than higher power solid state amp?

What do you look for, terms like 'high current' amp. High Damping factor.
Does tube amp provide high damping factor or high current?

For example, a KT120 tube amp specs 75wpc into 8 or 4 ohms vs. say an Emotiva XPA-1
monoblock pair that is 1000wpc in 4ohms. From output power, the solid state amp would
sound better at lower volume vs. the tube amp?

Why tube amp specs never state damping factor?
Why most solid state amps don't state damping factor?

I understand there are a lot of factors, class of amp, sound amp signature. Would you pick
amp best on brand name or output power with price being about the same? It could be
a used Byrston, Carver, etc...

Or in what situation would you choose a lower power tube amp over a higher power solid state amp? Speakers would be Magnepan 1.7i.

I was told even Primaluna 90wpc is under power for Maggies so that threw me off from
looking into tube amps.

 

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RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 27, 2020 at 15:03:24
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 If you can afford tubes and your room isn't symphony hall sized I say go for it.

A lot of Maagie folks compromise by going SS amp along with tube preamps.









 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 27, 2020 at 17:50:20
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 I was going to add I have a pair of 100w VTL compact mono amps I've been meaning to hook up to the LRS's but I haven't gotten around to it ..I'm thinking next weekend, since it's a four day for me.

I'm hesitant because I just got one of the VTL's out of the shop (2nd time in about 7 or 8 years), keeps burning out a resistor or two, not sure if that's due to the demand on the amp or simply age (they were discontinued hell probably in the late 80s).











 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 27, 2020 at 18:33:57
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Man, thats a lot of questions you have! GL sums it up pretty well, People with large rooms tend to sit further away from the speakers as opposed to small rooms where you are forced into a near field set-up. To fill large rooms where the listener is seated further away requires more energy from the speakers, necessitating the use of high output amps. A near field set-up allows you to put your money in quality over quantity. It's like listening through headphones as opposed to sitting 12 feet away from speakers, headphones can sound great with a smallish pure class A amp, but trying to reproduce those sonic qualities in a large room with speakers is a different story.
People often combine tube pre's with SS amp's as a compromise, tubes have a sonic character that people find attractive and SS often offer more power and bottom end control. There are brands that offer both but they don't come cheap.

"it is known fact higher output power tends to provide improved sound quality for the planars". Not exactly, higher output will play louder and probably have more control(bass), but 30w of pure class A in a near field at low levels will have better "sound quality" than 200w of a lower class.

"is there something different with tube amps vs solid state that lower
output power tube amp can still sound better than higher power solid state amp?". Yes! Long story, but I already gave the short version above.

"What do you look for, terms like 'high current' amp. High Damping factor". Don't look, go and listen! people get hung up on specs + figures, they're just rough guidelines, Its your ears that have to decide.

"From output power, the solid state amp would
sound better at lower volume vs. the tube amp?" Nope, People sitting near field and listening at low levels get away with a tube amp and prefer it over SS.

"Would you pick
amp best on brand name or output power with price being about the same?". Neither, you pick the amp you're ears prefer.

" in what situation would you choose a lower power tube amp over a higher power solid state amp?" If I couldn't live without the sonic virtues of tubes and couldn't afford the few SS or tube amps that combine these sonic virtues with high power output.


.










 

Damping, posted on June 27, 2020 at 19:16:59
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Damping is highly overrated. Basically it is the ratio of the speaker impedance divide by the amplifier output impedance. Assume you have a 4 ohm speaker and an amp with impedance of 0.01 ohm (SS). You would think the DF is 400 but because of the DCR of the cable and crossover needs to be added the actual DF might 4/2.01 or 2. With tube amps the output impedance 4,8,16 depending on the settings. So the actual DF of tube amps is about 1 - almost the same as an SS - and inconsequential.
If you want to get a higher DF, try vertical biamping so there is no crossover and the cable is short (placing the amp next to the speaker). Unfortunately the 1.7i can not be biamped because of the serial XO.
So the short answer to your question as to why DF is not frequently mentioned is that DF is immaterial.
FWIW I have always used (40 years) a tube pre with an SS amp. You should really look at a Class D, they work well with Maggies and over the last 10 years have improved. I am using a W4S ST-500 with my 3.7i.




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Damping, posted on June 27, 2020 at 20:14:45
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The rule I've been working with for years is that any REAL value over maybe 50 is fine. That is going to include everything from amp to speaker / crossovers, cable and so forth.

An amp which is say.....500.... on the bench will never be so in a real system where it counts.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 06:29:16
Norman M
 For *the* defining answer to your question you might consider reading Roger Sander's defining statement in his White Paper, Tubes vs. Transistors: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors.

If I had a long road ahead of me, I'd invest in his Magtech or even a pair of his Magetech mono block amplifiers. Then I'd be prepared to play anything Magnepan could ever put in my direction or advancing up their product line from the LRS up to whatever.

 

RE: Damping, posted on June 28, 2020 at 10:16:55
Davey
 The output impedance of a tube amp is not 4,8.16 depending upon the settings. :) Those are just transformer taps. The actual output impedance is lower than those numbers.

Using an amplifier with significant output impedance, it's definitely possible to skew speaker frequency response looking into a varying impedance load of many loudspeakers.

The traditional way of defining "damping factor" was to include the speakers DC resistance in the denominator of the calculation. Thus you had a lower number than a simple speaker-impedance divided by amp output resistance calculation.
DF = Speaker impedance / (Amp output impedance + Speaker DC resistance)

Dave.

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 10:49:42
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13976
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 I drove my LRS with a 100 wpc tubed integrated amp for 9 months and
thought things sounded pretty good.

I purchased a pair of 700 watt class D amps and associated preamp and,
let me tell you, things sound a LOT better. A whole lot better.

Don't overlook class D.

Let your ears be your guide.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 11:20:51
Norman M
 Manufacturer and model number, please.

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 17:27:02
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13976
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II
PS Audio Gain Cell Dac/Preamp, M700 monoblocks

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 18:34:17
Norman M
 Thank you. I'll try to learn all I can about them.

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 28, 2020 at 19:29:24
Taki888
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: May 15, 2020
 Thanks for all the great info. Unfortunately you just can't go out and listen. Not all places carry the same equipment especially with dedicated Maggie set ups.

All my past purchases have been based on user forum feedback/reviews, audio review name brand reputation.

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 29, 2020 at 08:14:04
Norman M
 All very true. Ideally one might audition equipment at home on loan from a dealer (or audio buddy) or else buy from a manufacturer/dealer who has a free return policy. Obviously one's choices of equipment would be severely limited.

 

RE: Damping, posted on June 29, 2020 at 10:50:13
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Thanks for the correction. However my point remains. A published high DF (normally 8 ohms divided by the output impedance) means very little in an actual setup. If this were not so, I doubt that many would prefer tube amps with their low DF over SS.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

Loved the Mag-Tech amp with my Maggies, but..., posted on June 29, 2020 at 11:41:52
CometCKO
Audiophile

Posts: 873
Joined: August 9, 2002
 I actively dislike the MagTech with other speakers I've tried with it. I think the Maggies lean a bit to the "warm" side of musical presentation, but the MagTech beats with a cold, cold heart. Together, nice.

In your case, you should definitely try the Sanders MagTechs. You might even pick up a set of Roger's earlier amp design that he did for Innersound when he was chief engineer there. I got a set cheap, sent them to Roger for bias adjustment suitable for Maggies (vs. the Electrostats they were designed for). Used them for 12 years on my Maggies with zero problems and great sound quality. Highly recommended.
"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"

 

RE: Tube vs. Solid State for Planars, posted on June 29, 2020 at 15:56:32
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 My apologies, I keep forgetting that you guys can't just loan gear, take it home for a couple of weeks, give it a spin, and then bring it back. Good luck with your search!

 

RE: Damping, posted on June 29, 2020 at 18:55:43
Davey
 The point is.....most speaker systems are nowhere near a constant 8 ohm load. They have a varying impedance curve that can wobble all over the place owing to resonances, crossover alignment, driver inductance rise, etc, etc, etc.

Damping Factor, per-se, is not the issue, but rather those varying impedance loads causing frequency shifts when using amplifiers with high-ish output resistance. This can be somewhat significant and this is what accounts (primarily) for subjective differences between various tube amplifiers relative to solid-state amps.

This is easy to experiment with. Just take your nice solid-state amp and add a 2 ohm resistor in series with the output. A sensitivity loss, obviously, but you will hear a tonal balance change as well.

Dave.

 

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