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Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question

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Posted on May 13, 2020 at 14:50:56
Alex F.
Audiophile

Posts: 877
Location: Florida
Joined: February 29, 2004
 I am considering purchasing a pair of Magneplanar 1.7i loudspeakers. I read recently in a magazine review by a veteran Magneplanar owner that the quasi-ribbon drivers can, at times, exhibit a very subtle grainy sound. Another reviewer described it as a very slight plasticky sound.

Do owners here of quasi-ribbon Magneplanars hear this at any time, even in an extremely tiny amount on rare occasions?

 

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RE: "Another reviewer described it as a very slight plasticky sound" ..., posted on May 13, 2020 at 19:02:13
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12551
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Given the wire - whether it's old-style round wire or new-style foil - is glued to a mylar sheet ... I suggest any such 'plasticky' sound is likely to be caused by the mylar ... not the wire.

All I can say is ... I recently had to have my bass panels re-wired (as I was getting some buzzing, from delam) and requested the Oz distributor use modern foil rather than the original round-wire.

There's no drawback with the foil, as far as I'm concerned! :-))

Also, when I listened to some 3.7s last year ... I was blown away by the clarity of the mids - so much better than my round wire mids.

Andy

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 14, 2020 at 09:54:22
Utley1
Audiophile

Posts: 1609
Location: NYC
Joined: July 30, 2010
 Nonsense--I have listened to many MAGGIES ----the quasi ribbons is one of the designs Magnepan ever produced----but components matter a lot along with cables and the use of resistors or inductors and most important the room. Maggies are architecturally sensitive...The 1.7i is remarkable

 

RE: "Another reviewer described it as a very slight plasticky sound" ..., posted on May 14, 2020 at 13:08:07
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 > There's no drawback with the foil, as far as I'm concerned! :-))

There is one. Wire with insulation can be doubled up per long run, providing more efficiency and higher impedance for the bass panel. This was standard practice in wire bass panels for decades with them. I think the DWM's are still wire, maybe doubled, and doubled magnets.

The QR midrange will be clearer than the round wire, probably as the foil is more firmly embedded than the glued on wire (glue + wire will have some mechanical flexibility) and lower mass. Since the QR midrange has so much greater high frequency extension, in the 3.7 they changed the crossover to mix in the ribbon at a higher frequency (above ear's most sensitive range) and more gradually vs 3.6.

The change to foil in the bass is probably not driven by sound quality as much as longevity. Foil doesn't seem to delaminate. The weight of wire might be beneficial in bass panel to lower resonance frequency.

I have a 3.6 and have always considered 3.7, but now maybe waiting for a'4.7', the lower price point of "30.7 for condos" active hybrid.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 14, 2020 at 15:25:44
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Totally agree with Utley1, a grainy or plasticky sound from a quasi-ribbon? then look somewhere else, Maggies are very rewarding once you feed them quality. The problem with Maggies is the selling price, people tend to combine them with components + cables in the same price range or slightly above, but then you're never going to hear a Maggies full potential. One of the biggest problem selling Maggies was convincing customers to invest heavily in electronics + cables, general mind set is to spend most on speakers, then amps and the least amount on source, when actually, it should be the other way around.
So, to answer your question, I hear absolutely no sign of "grain" or "plasticky" sound from my quasi-ribbons, but that is no guarantee that you won't, that will depend on the quality of your system.

 

RE: "Another reviewer described it as a very slight plasticky sound" ..., posted on May 14, 2020 at 17:10:36
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 not sure about the foil on mylar vs the wire on mylar but "IMHO" there were times I heard (what Mart used to call) the 'tissue paper on comb' effect with my MG1.6's. Didn't happen often in fact I probably wouldn't have noticed it had Mart not brought it up lol...











 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 14, 2020 at 21:35:22
Alex F.
Audiophile

Posts: 877
Location: Florida
Joined: February 29, 2004
 Appreciate your reply and those of others here.

The quality of the components and cables in our dedicated music room will not be a limiting factor. You can click on my name and proceed to a list of the components.

Again, thank you.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 03:24:07
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Well, I did actually look at your system, and let me start off by stating that I have no intent to bash your system or show disrespect, but, in all honesty, your system will limit 1.7's.
I understand that people find it hard to rationalize spending multiple amounts of funds on components in relationship to their speakers, but ALL speakers will improve to the point that there is no rational audible difference noticeable despite component upgrading, and before reaching this point, costs will have risen to multiple times speaker costs. Maggies, due to their extreme price/quality ratio are perhaps the ultimate example.
In my experience, ratios of 1-15(speakers-system)is roughly where the point of no return kicks in, upgrading after this resulting in a changing of flavors, not necessarily audible improvements.
With regards to your system, source upgrading would be very beneficial, a separate quality pre combined with monos to feed each channel separately would improve sonics dramatically, and upgrading speaker, interconnect + power cables will yield large steps forward.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 12:15:36
Norman M
 From Wiki: "In reality, Mylar® brand is a registered trademark owned by Dupont Tejjin Films for a specific family of plastic sheet products .."

It follows, Mylar:plastic = "Magneplanars:"plasticky" sound. (As well as components having black cabinets sound 'dark'.)

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 14:10:42
Alex F.
Audiophile

Posts: 877
Location: Florida
Joined: February 29, 2004
 I am sorry but that is absurd. Using your cost ratio of 15:1 requires an expenditure of $33,000 in gear for the Magneplanar 1.7i loudspeakers ($2,200/pair). That is nonsense. If everybody believed your advice, Magnepan would cease to exist.

I should add that all components in our music room were chosen after extensive listening evaluations based on sonic performance, not price. Far more costly components (both tube and solid-state) in every category were outperformed by those that we kept. Multiple amps, preamps, CD players, etc., were returned to the dealers. The big surprise was the sensational sound quality of the Yamaha CD player's transport. Also, during its trial period a little over two years ago, the Cary needed NOS "small" tubes and Tung-Sol KT-120 power tubes before it earned a place in the system. The stock Electro-Harmonix tubes were unlistenable.

I hope I am wrong, but your post comes across as major snobbery.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 17:03:35
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Yes, somewhere around that figure would be right, not that all high price tags guarantee High-End sound, you still need to do your homework. But like most things in life, you can't expect Porsche 911 performance for the price of a Honda Civic.
My comments were not given as advice (I gave up advising years ago), the discussion was if your system would be a limiting factor, my cost ratio figure is to illustrate roughly how far you can go before one reaches the limits of a speaker, there is no "need" to spend this amount of money to enjoy 1.7's, you can build a decent sounding system for under 10K with 1.7's, but you will not have reached their limits.
If you have listened to everything and concluded that your set is as good as it gets, well..... good for you! Enjoy! In the end, it all comes down to what takes you to Audio Nirvana, no matter what measurements, specs, white papers or "experts" tell you. There actually are people who hear little to no difference in cables!! aren't they lucky!

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 18:34:45
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Yes. And aluminum cone woofers can sound like a beer can. Copper wires can impart a coppery 'sheen' to the sound.

The only exception with Magnepans MIGHT be in the case of wire / QR delam or possibly mylar wrinkles which should be visible upon careful inspection....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 16, 2020 at 19:14:09
Alex F.
Audiophile

Posts: 877
Location: Florida
Joined: February 29, 2004
 Yeah, OK. You equate McIntosh and Cary gear and a system you have not heard with a Honda Civic? Your comments are, well, nonsense.

I have spent decades listening to and evaluating state-of-the-art gear for manufacturers and at dealerships owned by friends and at home. I know how good top-notch products sound in a meticulously synergized system in an acoustically treated room because such a system is in my house.

Your false sense of superiority is too much to take. Tone it down.

PS: For a frame of reference, it would be helpful for everyone to know the components, loudspeakers, and cables that you utilize in your music system. There is a good chance I have auditioned some of the gear. Based on your comments here and in your handful of past posts, the total cost must be off the charts.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 17, 2020 at 08:05:11
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Oh yeah, one more thing, skip on the 1.7's, go for a set of used 1.6's, way better than the 1.7's. Something went haywire with the 1.7's, they tried to fix it with a upgrade to 1.7i after feedback from certain distribution channels, but, well, let's say, the damage was already done.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 17, 2020 at 10:57:13
Alex F.
Audiophile

Posts: 877
Location: Florida
Joined: February 29, 2004
 Again, what specific components, loudspeakers, and cables are you utilizing in your music system?

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 17, 2020 at 11:05:44
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Preamp is a Parasound P5 ONE A23 per speaker wired per 'way'. Short lengths of Belden 10ga wire, 2 runs at about 30 inches, per speaker.
No-Name optical but DAC connected to pre with Mogami Gold balanced. From Guitar Center.

If I had the $$$ I might go to a PAIR of Pass XA-30.5 amps, again at one per speaker while getting a line level crossover in this mix. Probabbly a MiniDSP. For a SINGLE amp solution? I'd give MagTech a good look.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 20, 2020 at 19:32:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I doubt FX will disclose his choices.
Were he to list his stuff, it'd let the JuJu out and he'd have to start over.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 21, 2020 at 10:05:40
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 DrChaos wrote:
"The QR midrange will be clearer than the round wire, probably as the foil is more firmly embedded than the glued on wire (glue + wire will have some mechanical flexibility) and lower mass. Since the QR midrange has so much greater high frequency extension, in the 3.7 they changed the crossover to mix in the ribbon at a higher frequency (above ear's most sensitive range) and more gradually vs 3.6."

The mass of the foil conductor of the 3.7 mid is actually higher than the round wire ofvthe 3.6 mid! The resistance is 0.56 vs. 0.84 Ohm/m. Mass of the conductor is about 2.2 vs. 1.7 grannes. The conductor is shorter in the 3.7 mid and there are fewer magnets. The driven part is less than for the 3.6. The tie-down arrangement is also different and we do not know if the changed the tension of the Mylar. Higher tension can improve higher frequency reproduction.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on May 21, 2020 at 11:33:38
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That isn't right. They hit on a simple modification that improved the speakers across the line, not just the 1.7.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 20, 2020 at 08:48:56
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 spend that 15 k for better speakers and ur having much more of difference and use the cheap gear. many gear measures excellent, amps and players.... speakers are ALWAYS the limiting factor. there is next to nothing in terms of distortion created by most amps or players. its all the speaker. and some do it better then others. :)

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 20, 2020 at 16:34:31
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 That is just total crap, use cheap gear? that's a first! they measure well? who cares?? I don't measure equipment, I LISTEN to it, and unfortunately, the cheap gear never wins! Come on, no matter how good a integrated may be, its no competition for a external dual mono powered pre combined with class A mono's, and they don't come cheap. Measurements are helpful, but I've heard stuff that measures great and sounds like shit, and I've heard gear that measures shit but takes you to audio nirvana.
If I get it right, you would buy expensive speakers, hook it up with a cheap amp and source(cheap cables too?) and expect great sounds? Speakers don't make music by themselves, they just reproduce a signal they are fed with, the better the speaker, the more critical that signal becomes, therefore, THE limiting factor in a system is whether or not the equipment in front of your speakers is of such a high quality that your speakers will reach their full potential.

FWIW, speakers should be chosen on room interaction, not on high price tags + looks, then you can build a system that will squeeze out every ounce of music they have. Too many people buy their "dream speakers" and then start rebuilding their room to accommodate them.

Speakers only become the limiting factor once upgrading your system no longer brings audible improvements, something I have rarely, if ever, experienced. This post was about the limiting factor of 1.7's, so your comment misses the point of this post.

Where did this 15k come from? I mentioned a ratio of 1-15, not 15k.......?

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 21, 2020 at 05:18:06
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 As Alex F mentiones
[quote]I am sorry but that is absurd. Using your cost ratio of 15:1 requires an expenditure of $33,000 in gear for the Magneplanar 1.7i loudspeakers ($2,200/pair). That is nonsense. If everybody believed your advice, Magnepan would cease to exist.[quote]

and you reply that seems about right.... so sorry 15k is wrong indeed, maybe 33K then?

Use crap gear... i dont suggest use crap gear but affordable gear is often more then enough.

i am also not saying buy the cheapest gear and the most expensive speaker system you can find, i think allot of speaker systems are overpriced completely. i am saying that the speakers in general ALL OF THEM up till this day, are the weakest link (besides acoustics in a room) they are the biggest contribution of distortion,phase issues, etc etc in any system.

there is just no way you can discuss something with someone that says i listen en then decide witch 'is' better. they will be biased and preference and hearing abilities will come into play. its not wrong ! i mean if you like a certain system and enjoy it, thats great even if its completely wrong if your looking for only accuracy in measurements. we all got a taste, some like this some like that.

the statements of ratios and MUST have high quality cable etc etc etc are all your preferences, as longs as you cant provide any data for it why it is better in measurements within the capability of the hearing of a human. they will remain preferences.

you really think 0.003% distortion of a decent cheap amplifier (pioneer 757 ) is more important then the 0.15-0.3% on the midrange/tweeter, or even 2-4% (often more) of the distortion imposed on the signal by the low frequency driver of a planarmagnetic ?
Especially the cheaper ones since they got less surface area to work with hence more distortion to get the same spl???


just my 2 cents

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 21, 2020 at 16:27:55
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Yes......... for the second time, you can easily invest 33k in a system before you reach the point of no return on a 1.7. Glad you finally figured that out.

Affordable gear is often more than enough? that sentence is meaningless, affordable for one is unaffordable for the other, and what is "enough"?

A-B listening has nothing to do with being biased, personal preferences or whether you enjoy it, your aim is to determine which of the 2 is better in fulfilling the criteria's associated with a high-end system. Audiophiles don't buy accuracy in measurements, they buy accuracy in sonic reproduction.

High quality cable is not a preference, but a necessity, years of listening has made that obvious. You tech guys are all the same, you all want proof, data and measurements, it just doesn't work that way, the way human hearing and the brain experiences sound is way more complex than what a machine can measure, just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you can't hear it.

Distortion? again, you're too hung up on numbers, don't get me wrong, measurements have their place, but I've heard too many amps that measured the same but sound completely different.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 22, 2020 at 03:52:46
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 Yes......... for the second time, you can easily invest 33k in a system before you reach the point of no return on a 1.7. Glad you finally figured that out.

im glad you know the limitations of a 1.7, i can assure you that limit can be reached within 1/10th of that budged with ease. if you keep in touch of what you as a normal human can do and take into account ur hearing capabilities (hearing does not cope well with aging) a measuring mic will. and dont say its some sort of higher power and or mystery we cant solve with our limited scientific knowledge.

this method of arguing reminds me allot of arguing about religion or alternative medicine. just say you cant measure everything there is something there that cant be measured, and you have a free path to sell and or say whatever suits you and noone can disprove it.

By affordable i meant, if you buy 500 euro speakers because thats what you can afford you wont be spending 7500 on an amplifier anytime soon. if i have to explain what for most of the people is affordable i am pretty sure you are a bit detached from the world around you.


A-B listening has nothing to do with being biases. well if you added BLIND ABX in front and get them right everytime then yes , thats a valid method without bias. ABX ?

Buying a cable or amp or for all i know loving the design and knowing witch one is playing makes you biased, and there are 1000 other reasons why people might be.


High quality cable is not a preference, but a necessity, years of listening has made that obvious

Yeah thats why the industry that makes ur music dont give a flying shit about those. and they clearly dont have a clue what they are doing. in studios, filmsets ,live gigs, Concerts with 200 classical instruments etc etc etc all use quality XLR cable for instance and decent connectors, mostly Neutrik and Canara and a few others. multiple reasons why, but there is one thing they have in common is that while being more expensive then others they are still affordable. many mics run down a such cables over lengths of 10 or sometimes even 30 meter or more, a signal so much smaller then ur line or speaker signal still its the stuff you and i listen to. tweaking a 30 cm line level cable does not do crap and its is proven so many times in a 0 test. thats not even measuring its expensive cable signal - inexpensive cable and see whats left. if it made a difference there should be a signal. if not...... they do exactly the same !

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 22, 2020 at 07:15:01
Mcmusicman
Audiophile

Posts: 26
Location: Wilmington NC
Joined: April 15, 2020
 Thousands of hours listening to my 1.7 and never once have heard anything close to a "plastic" sound. I can only imagine that would occur if the panel was damaged in some way. I think the one of the big advantages of magneplanar is the lack of inertia resonances found in cone and box speakers.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 22, 2020 at 17:05:16
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 This was fun, but you're really starting to bore me. Your arguments are shallow and have gone completely haywire. I love a good discussion, but you seem to be convinced that the perception and emotional impact that music through a high-end system has on a human being can be reduced to a pile of numbers and data, and what can't be measured is non-existent, just wishful thinking and our imagination.........yeah, right.

I'mn taking a wild guess here, but I'd say your young, educated, and have maybe 10-15 years max experience in the high-end world? that would explain a lot.





 

RE: "Another reviewer described it as a very slight plasticky sound" ..., posted on June 22, 2020 at 18:09:53
shumi
Audiophile

Posts: 155
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 11, 2020
 This thread makes no sense...just audition the darn speakers yourself and make up your own mind. Too much drama for no reason.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 23, 2020 at 01:21:10
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 nice the calm pompous dude that says , you bore me.....
ur really trying to be the biggest dick you can?

dude you did not give me any solid argument yet. every time you give a preference based on bias and money.


I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd say your young, educated, and have maybe 10-15 years max experience in the high-end world? that would explain a lot."

professional experience that would be for you sir(soundesigner movie/tv/ recording/mixing)


My guess is that you are a 65+ guy with to much money instead of manners, that thinks he hears things that others cant. the Golden ears kind of person like we all like and love.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 23, 2020 at 03:28:38
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I haven't heard it in the quasi ribbons.

In the old wire models, yes. Call it the snare drum effect, if you will. If you deliver an impulse to the film by tapping it with your finger, you'll hear it.

Now do the same thing with a quasi-ribbon driver. You'll hear a dull, well damped thud rather than a tizzy snare sound.

(Note that shorting the terminals -- or powering them directly with an amplifier -- will most closely approximate what you hear, because you'll get electrical damping. This may be one of the reasons that Maggies sound so good when biamped -- the amplifier can "see" the driver over the whole frequency range rather than being blocked by the crossover components (depending on topology). This means that the diaphragm will be damped properly by the amp's output impedance outside the frequency range determined by the XO.

That isn't to say that if you listen closely enough, you won't hear something subtle. All drivers, planar or otherwise, suffer from diaphragm breakup, and that has audible consequences. You can often tell what a driver's breakup will sound like just by tapping the diaphragm. Just that I don't hear the tizzy noise I did with the wire models, and Jonathan Valin noted its absence when he reviewed IIRC the 1.7 for TAS.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 23, 2020 at 17:25:34
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Seems I was wrong, you actually have no experience in building high-end systems?, you design sound for movies and TV......... well, that definitely makes you the expert.

So, if humans are biased and inconsistent, then maybe you can explain why most high-end manufacturers use live panels for crucial judging and fine tuning of their products in the final production fase.......... I think they are referred to as "golden ears"?

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 24, 2020 at 11:47:35
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 urn so full of shit its insane.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 24, 2020 at 17:21:13
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: March 6, 2020
 Thank you for your professional reply, I look forward to future discussions.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on June 25, 2020 at 02:17:31
WrineX-Joppe
Industry Professional

Posts: 10
Location: Nederland
Joined: June 19, 2020
 Nothing you wrote so far has anything to do with professionalism , a professional troll at best. im as well looking forward to see what nonsense you come up with without any proof.

i do hope i wont fall for it next time though. since ur a waste of time.

good day sir

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on July 7, 2020 at 03:00:45
karsnaolavi@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Harjumaa
Joined: May 26, 2019
 Dear people, every human being has a bit different hearing physiology connected to a bit different psycology. There can be no universal right sound.

 

RE: Magneplanar quasi-ribbon question, posted on July 29, 2020 at 20:01:18
LineSource
Audiophile

Posts: 145
Location: Iowa
Joined: July 29, 2014
 I have had 1.7is for a couple years now and recently bypassed the jumpers and fuses after never blowing a fuse in that time. I also have enough power that the amp will never clip. This cleaned up the sound significantly on speakers that are remarkable as they are. I would factor in a set of Mye Stands no matter what. I just put my 1.7s on Mye Stands and it's the most dramatic improvement I've ever heard with a speaker mod. It takes them to a whole new level. I know it ups the overall price but the only way you'd see this kind of jump in performance would be to spend thousands more on 3.7s. What ever you do, rest assured you're getting probably the most refined speaker there is in this price range. Just feed them plenty of current.
LineSource

 

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