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Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation

50.135.235.166
Posted on June 5, 2017 at 20:15:32
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 I've read a great deal online about this perennial topic. I'm still not clear. My dedicated listening room is 11' x 13' with rear wall open to living room. There is a 5' square window on the front wall and a 5' window on the outside wall. The .7 speakers flank the front window. Speakers are about 40' from front wall and about 16" from side walls. Toe-in approximately 1" Tweeters are inboard.

I'd greatly appreciate some educated suggestions regarding best placement of diffusers and and/or bass traps. At present, there is no treatment on the front wall. I do have tube traps in the corners of the rear wall, which opens to the living room.


I cannot cover the windows due to WAF. Is my best bet to add diffusers to the front wall on either side of the window?
Thanks in advance.

BTW, Satie, I'm especially lookin' at you. :)

 

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RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 06:52:36
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Well, I'm not Satie.. :) but to your last sentence, yes that's what I'd do. A picture would tell us a better story.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 07:46:51
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015



Thanks, Grant. Here's a photo. I call it my zen listening room. :) There are floor to ceiling tube traps in the corners of the mostly open rear wall of the listening room proper- on either side of the large opening. The photo is shot from the adjacent living room. The windows have translucent pleated shades which likely don't do much acoustically.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 08:24:53
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Keeping front wall windows from reflections is a job for the fake ficus. It should be placed half way from the mid and tweeter to the 1/4 points of the respective front wall space between the speakers.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 08:35:15
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 You might also need diffusion on the sidewalls and side window. While another fake ficus per wall would be useful, there are now transparent diffusors you can use there without the visual impact of large vertical diffusors.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 10:02:09
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015



I've got about 30 of these gizmos which I'll try. They look pretty cool and are made of paper. No affiliation.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 10:04:27
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That look different. Any idea how well the disperse/absorb? They don't look like they were designed with acoustic properties in mind.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 10:10:13
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 I don't have specs on them, but they are designed with acoustics in mind.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 6, 2017 at 12:02:50
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 well those are interesting... I have seen similar things... not sure if by the same company..... Let us know how well they work out.....

 

I like it!, posted on June 6, 2017 at 12:06:56
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Zen it is, nice, clean, light, exactly the opposite of my room... which I sometimes thinks needs cheering up.
Although I think the paper diffusor you posted would do little, it might be a good balance o the right side to offset the closed shade for listening. I do not like an unbalanced room if preventable, one of those (I)might(/I) help.
The wall behind the speakers, I agree with Satie. Some fake ficus trees, or standing diffusors of some sort at first reflection point, or somewhere along the path between rear of panels and first reflection point (a friend/spouse and mirror slid along the wall can find this).

 

RE: I like it!, posted on June 6, 2017 at 13:18:30
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thanks to everyone for your valuable and kind comments. This place is a treasure! My plan is to mount the paper gizmos on thin board of some kind so I can easily move them to find the best (if any) spot.

I'll report back. I'm also considering DIY absorption panels on the ceiling. Am I correct in thinking that in general, planars don't benefit from bass traps in the corners of the front wall?

BTW, Grant, I'm "stuck" with this imbalanced room but feel fortunate to be able to have a dedicated, uncluttered room for my speakers. Audio components were moved to the closest corner of the adjacent living room.

Fake ficus trees-hmmmm- My wife's gonna love that! :)

 

RE: Here you go, posted on June 7, 2017 at 09:23:17
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Who makes transparent diffusers?

I need one to go over my window -- don't want to lose the light. I could in theory make a polycylindrical diffuser out of plexiglass but bending large sheets of that is a pain.

 

RE: Here you go, posted on June 7, 2017 at 09:28:28
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Really like the look of that room!

I agree with the others that you should go for diffusion behind the speakers and also on the side walls (to break up slap echo). The question is how to do it without ruining the effect. Ficus trees are a good idea.

Not sure how well your paper diffusers work -- they do look nicer than most diffusers.

The room also needs some broadband absorption, not enough soft surfaces. The carpet will attenuate some highs. Broadband absorbers can be covered with a broad range of fabrics and even printed with pictures.

 

RE: Here you go, posted on June 7, 2017 at 10:27:23
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thank you, Josh. I recently pulled the wall to wall carpet out and laid hardwood floor. A vast improvement in many ways. My hammering arm is finally recovered. :)

For me, the aesthetic of the listening room is an important element.

Where would you place broadband absorption? I'm planning on making my own using Roxul Safe n' Sound batting in simple wood frames covered with acoustic cloth.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 7, 2017 at 15:02:15
dumpingground
Audiophile

Posts: 256
Joined: February 23, 2011






test data on the MIO paper product

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 7, 2017 at 15:23:03
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thanks so much for your research. Can you kindly evaluate/interpret the data in real world terms for someone like myself who in not technically-oriented?

Thanks again-
Paul

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 02:16:36
PerStromgren
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Karlstad
Joined: January 28, 2015
 Have you tried putting the speakers in the opening between the two rooms? That may not be the ideal position from an interior point of view (duh), but an experiment could shred some lights as to how much acoustical treatment is needed.

I have my Quad 2912:s permanent in a similar position in my listening room.

Per.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 04:40:25
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2054
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Josh wrote: "Who makes transparent diffusers?"

You can find transparent diffusers in this thread, https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=mug&m=225841

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/5/55175/img_2522.jpg

They are made by Svanå, http://www.diffusor.com/USA.htm

 

RE: Here you go, posted on June 8, 2017 at 11:18:16
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I really like the hardwood floor. And they're sonically excellent.

Really, broadband absorption can be just about anywhere. If you're close to a rear wall, you might want to try it behind your head, though I gather you'd be sitting in an opening. If you like a dry acoustic, at the first reflection points behind the speakers, instead of diffusion. Your front-back axis is actually kind of absorbent already depending on what you have outside the opening. So I'd probably focus on side-side even though there's less excitation there. It would help a lot if you could take a measurement and look at your Rt time, otherwise it's going to be cut and paste. You shouldn't need very much -- you don't want to make the room too dead, just keep it from being an echo chamber.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 11:23:00
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Hello Per,
I might try that just for kicks. :) . Thanks for the suggestion. My wife will likely think I've gone completely mad.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 11:30:23
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 If I understand the data correctly, the MIO tiles won't diffuse but offer some degree of absorption at higher frequencies. Yes?
Thanks again.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 11:59:28
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That looks like rather efficient midrange frequency absorbers. They can be used for the front wall reflections with relatively narrow (~2ft) pair of vertical boards covered in the absorbers (probably want 3-4 ft vertical coverage, more would be only marginally better) which you can lean against the wall/window to find the best locations. If you would rather use the fake ficus as the front wall solution then these could be used as first reflection controls on the side walls.

 

RE: I like it!, posted on June 8, 2017 at 14:44:53
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37580
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Am I correct in thinking that in general, planars don't benefit from bass traps in the corners of the front wall?

That is definitely contrary to measured results in my room. While my stats have a more arced radiation angle than yours, they are still dipoles. I spent hours experimenting with various distances of speaker to front wall and bass trap placement measuring each variation.

I was going to begin my post by saying that regardless of who thinks what, you will benefit from experimenting. This is not intended to be a slight on any of the experienced folks here, but if you know the story of inmate Mike Lavigne you will appreciate the sentiment. Originally, I spread my bass trap forest around the room evenly and found that was not as effective as bunching the larger ones behind the speakers. You'll also find a third octave graph showing my success.

There are pics of my arrangement in the gallery (click my moniker) which use traps, some diffraction in the form of skylines and of course, some fake ficus plants! My room is a bit different than yours in that it is (fortunately) not a square box having asymmetric features and dormers. The open space behind your room proper should prove to be an advantage to an otherwise squarish format.

Good luck in the process. Room treatments can have a profound effect on the sound quality. I even employ some DIY treatments for the garage system. :)

 

RE: I like it!, posted on June 8, 2017 at 15:12:34
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thank you very much, E-Stat. I will indeed experiment. On my short to-do list of projects that are dear to my heart is DIY absorption panels. I plan to start with 4" thick panels in the corners of the front wall, And I might even be able to live with some artificial ficuses (or is it "fici") - an inexpensive, readily mobile, and easily done diffuser.

My room measures 11' x 13 ' There are no dormers. There's a 3'x5' opening on the inside wall that opens to the kitchen (we removed a cabinet to get more light from one room to the other, as well as an open doorway to the kitchen. Overall, the space sounds surprisingly good, even with the hardwood floor and windows.

Again, thanks for your helpful comments. One more thing, Mr. Lavigne's set-up, is, as the saying goes, a mind-blower!

 

RE: I like it!, posted on June 8, 2017 at 15:42:21
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37580
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Overall, the space sounds surprisingly good, even with the hardwood floor and windows.

The sound will tend to scatter about with all that reflectivity and harm coherence. It needs to be tamed for optimum results. I suspect there is quite a bit of slap echo at present.

One more thing, Mr. Lavigne's set-up, is, as the saying goes, a mind-blower!

Did you follow the link at the bottom? After spending tens of thousands of dollars having professional sound experts design his room from the ground up, he continued to find ways to better the results.

 

RE: I like it!, posted on June 8, 2017 at 15:59:21
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 "Did you follow the link at the bottom? After spending tens of thousands of dollars having professional sound experts design his room from the ground up, he continued to find ways to better the results."

I just followed the link at the bottom. Words (and finances) fail me. :)

 

"Ideal" room treatment design and implementation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 17:30:39
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37580
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 reminds me of the Yogi Berra line:

"In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is". :)

Experiment! Try different approaches - measure the results for things like bass traps.

 

RE: "Ideal" room treatment design and implementation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 17:37:30
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 If I do this in a proper manner, I'll need to learn how to properly measure the results. More research is in order as to methodology, since I'm not a technical kinda guy.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 8, 2017 at 23:24:27
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2054
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Some pictures from Per's listening room:

http://www.pulpeten.se/faktiskt/lyssningsplats_2912.jpg
http://www.faktiskt.se/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=7388

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 9, 2017 at 08:07:20
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thank you, Sir. I'll assemble a pair of panels this weekend and experiment with placement. I also now better understand the specs on the MIO tiles thanks to Mr. dumpinground. I'm quite encouraged and am learning.

 

RE: Acoustic Treatment/Diffusers/ My Situation, posted on June 9, 2017 at 08:13:08
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thanks for posting the photos. Placing the speakers on either side of the opening actually looks pretty good and is something I'll experiment with but not likely a permanent arrangement for us. Per's room is lovely- cheery, and quite inviting.

 

It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 12:48:59
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015






I just put the paper tiles up and moved the tube traps to the pictured location. This resulted in a noticeable improvement in coherence and sound stage. I've got more of the paper tiles and will continue to experiment with placement in other parts of the room. One very cool phenomenon, is that far-field listening, seated in the living room, sounds quite nice. Near-field listening has also improved noticeably. Learning how to do room measurements is on my agenda. That's a photo of John Coltrane on the right wall, one that appeared on an early Blue Note Album Cover. He approves of the changes I'm making.

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 13:34:46
BDP24
Audiophile

Posts: 1070
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Joined: September 12, 2013
 Are the tube traps ASC's, and the two shorter ones 2' tall? Never seen that size before---all mine are 3'.

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 14:07:35
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Yes, all ASC. I wish I had more. :) . But that's what DIY is all about. Coming soon.....

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 15:32:47
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I would suggest a couple of things to do so that you get more from the MMG.

Get a box or use concrete blocks to raise the center of the MMG to ear level, and wedge up the back of the legs to bring the speakers to the vertical position. That removes allot of time smear from the speakers and should bring clarity and more defined imaging. The effect should be stronger than that of the absorbers.

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 16:04:41
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Satie,
The speakers pictured are .7s. I do have risers for them but have not used them yet. I am experimenting with two pairs of Herbie's gliders under the factory stands to reduce the rearward rake and make the speakers more "upright." I like the results. I've also added a few of the MIO tiles to wall/ceiling intersection which I also like.

Thanks for your response.

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 18:03:15
BDP24
Audiophile

Posts: 1070
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Joined: September 12, 2013
 And if you do raise the back of the legs to make the speakers more vertical, put something heavy (bricks?) on top of the legs, so the speakers don't fall forward onto the floor!

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 19:48:08
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Never had an encounter with a ,7 so didn't recognize it. But the same should hold for it too. Practically all planars do best with the shorter speaker centered vertically at the listening height and dead vertical. Tall planars that near a floor to ceiling coverage don't need to be centered at listening height.

 

RE: It Begins, posted on June 10, 2017 at 20:24:02
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 I will try the metal risers which will raise the speakers about 5" and orient them "straight up." Now, it's bedtime after a long day of happy listening.
Thanks again.

 

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