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Trying Limage Speaker Placement

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Posted on April 3, 2017 at 09:30:07
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002






After reading about the Limage speaker placement a couple weeks ago here on the Planar Asylum (in which I do believe I'm fully committed) I thought that I would give it a try to see what the fuss is about.

For reference, my current placement of the Maggie 2.5R had the speakers 6' from the front wall and 5'3" from the side walls with the tweeters inside and toed-in to face the listening position. This gave a nice cohesive sound with very good bass performance and precise imaging, however, because the speaker were in the middle of the room our furniture was positioned oddly to accommodate and this quite a bit of stress from the 'living' perspective; kinda like having a small stone in your shoe.

I knew I didn't have the ideal space for Limage with the open area being 26' x 23', but spending a day with the speakers this way gave me something very different. Lots of space on the stage and the performers were separated to their own place on stage. The stage was massively wide. I also perceived a flatter bass response with deeper extension, something I've not really tried to achieve with any system as I've lived in apartments/condos for the last 13 years. The ribbons sounded less hard and more silky - the space is lively with a concrete ceiling on top, a kitchen to the back, and a glass front wall. I liked that there was a more diffused sound and you you hear music from all around irrespective of where in the space you were.

I liked what I heard enough to continue with dialling in the placement, and with a bit of tweaking I have the speakers now 7' from the front wall/windows, and 10" from the side walls with the tweeter still in. The only problem I was having was the midband was recessed - think of the audiophile "smile" where the frequency extremes are tilted upwards. There's lots of detail but there's no body or souls to the music. Woods aren't woody, vocals are nasally, horns are sharp, snares are thin and on and on. I think this is because of the distance of the speakers and sitting in the dipole null of the more directional frequencies on the midbass panel. The other problem was that there's Imaging hole just either side of centre and if you move an inch ether way the imaging is thrown off.

Primarily, the back of the room (sitting in the kitchen counter lol) provided the most enjoyable sound, but here was something magical about sitting 6' in front of the speaker plane (same distance as the front wall). There was a DEEP stage, rock solid bass but with less extension, and a spooky hologram, but the stage was too wide and there was phasing issue which caused some confusion in the brain about localizing images to sides and slightly behind me.

I was caught between a rock and hard place because there was room filling sound with the Limage placement and we could have our furniture in a peaceful arrangement but the life of the music was gone, and I didn't want to revert to the previous arrangement because I've been sleeping so well for the last week.

Thankfully I had a Klark Teknik DN370 laying around. For those not familiar it's an analog 31-Band graphic EQ with this particular unit having transformer outputs. We gave a small amount of boost to the 100Hz to 1kHz range with the peak boost of about 0.75dB at 500Hz. So, a broad sweep and low amplitude. Woods are woody again, vocals are rich, dynamics of not just the bass but of the rest of the frequency range has improved. I can't explain why, but the centre image is full and there is no loss of continuity for left to right. Maybe the slight phase shift provided by the boost at the EQ has pushed sound towards the centre? Who knows; I'm enjoying it. An added bonus is that sitting anywhere between the kitchen counter and the magic spot now yields pleasuring sound, the sweet spot is bigger.

Though it's not perfect and still requires fine tuning what this has done has fleshed out the entire sound of the room. I wish I had the time and patience to set up the mic and run REW but sometimes it's just nice to adjust by ear and enjoy what you gots.While there's still a process to undertake to achieve perfection, I can now, finally, have more of what I've been looking for from my music playback system: warm tone, dynamics, details, large scale, happy neighbours.

 

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RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 3, 2017 at 10:05:53
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Happy to see you found a solution.

If you have not yet fine tuned the gap to the wall and the distance to the front wall then you should still do so (without the EQ engaged - and then fix the optimal result with the EQ).

The tonal balance of the 3A is warmer and more bass heavy than the later models so that wall loading can make the midrange sound anemic relative to the deep bass. EQ is a solution if it is sufficiently high quality to be transparent. Your piece obviously works. You can try to get a picture of what the tonal balance is with your SPL meter and a test CD to do a FR sweep. No setup required, no software to learn. Look up the generic calibration curve to see where your results are "legit" as the response falls off at the top and bottom octaves.

The results you got are appropriate to the Limage setup and are to be expected, your EQ fixes the nits the rest of us have to live with if we don't multiamp. It provides a bigger and more resolved soundstage, wider sweet spot, warmer tonal balance with real deep bass, and stronger dynamics.

 

3A?, posted on April 3, 2017 at 10:37:09
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 "The tonal balance of the 3A is warmer and more bass heavy than the later models"

What is the 3A? I'm perplexed. Prob a typo?

I certainly would defeat the EQ while tweaking the placement. What I'd be looking to do is get the phasing right at the magic spot so there is minimal confusion but still retain the cavernous stage and power of foundation.

I don't mind REW. I'd used in the past many times and have benefitted from it. I used it with this space in the summer last year after the EQ was loaned to me. It was painstaking to get an appropriate setting, but once I settled I really REALLY loved to tone of a 'more flat' FR. however I sensed a loss of dynamic range. Now that I have a beefier amplifier Nd I'm using a speaker cable which interferes less the signal a reduction of dynamic range still leaves plenty of it on the table.

Should I get to it, I'll post graphs here, but it's hard during the week to do 75db sweeps at 9PM in a condo. I hope it's raining on the weekend.

My friend who was here helping, who is very hard to please and very discerning, was very surprised at the setup. He's been here many times and rarely has anything good to say. But he remarked that the music is fun to listen to. Once we EQ'd, he said it was music, it was involving, and we both wanted to listen to more. That's a good sign.

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 3, 2017 at 11:37:48
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 For true Limage setup the speakers should point straight ahead. They should be 40% into the room and you should be sitting within 2' of the back wall. Your room may not be ideal for a true Limage setup so you can play around trying other stuff but it is not Limage. I have a true Limage setup and frequency response is flat with very deep extended bass and an enormous soundstage
Alan

 

RE: 3A?, posted on April 3, 2017 at 13:01:36
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 My mistake re the 3A. I didn't look up your setup but went by superficial appearance and presumed it was a 3A. However, the 2.5r has the same tonal balance issue just that it is more pronounced at a lower freq than with the 3A. .

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 3, 2017 at 17:27:49
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 Ok, Alan, we will call this pseudo-Limage or Limage-esque then :)

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 3, 2017 at 22:08:26
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Was not being critical. Just trying to supply some additional info that might help with your setup
Have fun
Alan

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 4, 2017 at 07:09:56
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I note that both your room and steven's are nearly square dimensionally. Does Limage help mitigate the room mode challenge?

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 4, 2017 at 07:54:08
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 Critiques are important and welcomed.

I fully realize my room is too square (and too big a square) for the method to work perfectly.
I had tried the speakers at 40% at first, but due to shape of the room on the left side much of the stage/imaging to that side was non existent. One observation from last night was that if I place myself so that the speakers' current position is 40%-ish the distance between me and the front wall the music is very impressive.

The "fix" I'm trying at the moment with the EQ is definitely fun - all day yesterday I was itching to get home to put some music on, and, making different turnings with the EQ to shape the response is a fascinating experience to witness/hear what a small boost or cut to a band of frequencies does to the sound.Going from active to bypass mode, I can't believe I tolerated the response of the system as it was. I'm getting closer to the desired result.

 

RE: I like it!, posted on April 4, 2017 at 07:58:23
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 A little EQ is good for the soul...and Sound.

As you tweak a little here and there, you will gain confidence in your system and it will start to image better. Stay the course.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: I like it!, posted on April 4, 2017 at 08:23:09
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002






This was the extent of the shaping as I finished from last night. A slight cut of the gushers frequencies and a small broad boost of the mids. Tonight I'm home early, and the amp is warming as we speak ;).

 

RE: I like it!, posted on April 4, 2017 at 08:45:33
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 Subtle is best... I use DSP eq built into my (notoriously) non-audiophile Crown amps. But I do have lot's of power!



"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: I like it!, posted on April 4, 2017 at 09:17:17
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 I had put the crown xls1500 (2) into play when I went to this placement. Running a single channel from each amp, 8" of speaker wire. They are very clean with lots of detail and solid enough deep bass. Ultimately I restored service of the MC2 (with 900+ watts a available) after trying it again as it offers better grunt and has better dynamic capability. It also required less EQ.

I've been an advocate of EQ/DSP for most of my time in the game.

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 4, 2017 at 19:50:41
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Not for true square rooms. If you are beyond the 1:1 ratio by 10% or more you should be well out of the problem range.

 

Then..., posted on April 4, 2017 at 20:21:23
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 If you are beyond the 1:1 ratio by 10% or more you should be well out of the problem range.

steven barely squeaks by with 13%, but Alan fails at 7%. :)

 

RE: Then..., posted on April 4, 2017 at 21:49:21
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Are you sure? My room is 15X12 and it sounds incredible.
Alan

 

Review your system profile -nt, posted on April 5, 2017 at 05:04:20
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 .

 

RE: Then..., posted on April 5, 2017 at 05:45:49
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 AH!!! I updated my system profile to reflect the dimensions of the listening area. I don't know what I was smoking when I entered the numbers that were there previously.

The distance to the window from the kitchen is 27'.

The distance of the side walls is 22'.

Part of this space (rear and left) contains the master bath which eats up 9' of the length and 6' of the width.

 

Room dimensions are much like relatives, posted on April 5, 2017 at 06:40:52
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 you are stuck with what you get! :)

In this case, however, I really lucked out.

My upstairs room's 1.56 ratio of length to width is within an inch to the "Golden Ratio" of 1.62. Consequently, I'm able to get very neutral response with my dipoles after much experimentation with placement of them and bass traps.

 

RE: Review your system profile -nt, posted on April 5, 2017 at 11:18:16
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Sorry
My mistake. I corrected it to 15' X 12"
Alan

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 5, 2017 at 13:18:57
sparky62
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Mid-Jersey
Joined: January 6, 2012
 Steven,
Glad to see another Limage effort. Very few had "perfect" rooms, but with a bit of work you can achieve something wonderful. I have issues with enclosed poles jutting out from one side wall. With overstuffed furniture and an absorbing panel I have a work around.
More Magnepan users should spend a some time to try the Limage!
Jim

Bring Dynamics Back to Music
http://turnmeup.org/

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 6, 2017 at 10:10:46
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 So I brought the Mags further into the room, from a distance of 83" to 124" from the front wall and I'm pleasantly surprised.

The bass is more full and present, the midrange suck-out is less pronounced, and the overall sound is less thin and wispy (with no EQ). Now there's a better sense of stage depth and there's is less disconnect from left to right. There is a real power and energy to the music. The scale is larger too.

I still felt the need to apply a bit of EQ, I reduced the amplitude of boosted frequencies by half, and the cut frequencies by 2/3. Again, some fine tuning still to do.

With Limage-esque music is beautiful again.

 

RE: Room dimensions are much like relatives, posted on April 6, 2017 at 10:54:38
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I would not settle for anything less than 1.61. :-)

 

My last room was a horror, posted on April 6, 2017 at 15:56:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 large, but an unfortunate combination of dimensions: 14x28. There was, however, a very entertaining first octave boost in the rear corners of the room.

 

RE: My last room was a horror, posted on April 6, 2017 at 16:41:30
steven d
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: June 21, 2002
 Our current 11x11x21 bedroom, where I had a less-evolved system, was tops. I seem to recall "near field" being thrown around those days. We had the system there so our two cats wouldn't chew the wires or speaker grills during the day while we were at work.

It was only because of a flood in the bedroom that we moved the system out to the main area. I was having a party that weekend so I had set up the speakers where there was space to do so - man was I shocked at how big everything sounded and how smooth the bass was. The kicker was that my wife approved!

Three speakers, four amps, and five years on, this is where I'm at and its sounding it's best.

 

Very well :), posted on April 6, 2017 at 17:47:25
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 In my current space, speaker and bass trap position was optimized using measurements. While a third octave response doesn't tell the entire story, it is valuable for establishing a neutral sounding basis in the bottom octaves.

 

RE: My last room was a horror, posted on April 6, 2017 at 18:39:20
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I'm stuck with a 13 x 14 room. Fortunately, there's a 6' wide entrance which leads to a larger hall, breaking up the modes in the direction the Maggies are facing -- bass is much smoother with the speakers on that axis than the other way.

I swear I'll have a really nice listening room before I die . . .

 

RE: Trying Limage Speaker Placement, posted on April 8, 2017 at 09:15:10
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Glad it's working out
Enjoy
Alan

 

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