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Maggie's room vs other dipole

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Posted on April 1, 2017 at 19:44:24
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 So - reading the posts on room placement and placing the Mags just right - I am wondering if they are more difficult to place than other dipoles - such as a Martin Logan (prodigy / Odyssey series) .. I have the odysseys - and yes you need to take care in placement - deal with the distance from the front wall...but it seems the Maggie based on comments is more finicky? I will be trying on a new pair of Maggie's (kind of like new shoes my wife would buy :) )in the summer so I am curious as to what I will be running into.

 

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RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 1, 2017 at 20:51:26
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 In my experience, yes they take some work to find the right spot.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 08:40:20
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 I cannot compare to other dipoles , no experience there , however @ 70lbs (I am on carpets) they are easily tinkered with in my narrow 12' room where I found several positions re: depth always between 6' - 8' and always between 2" - 5" toe in , 10" - 14" off the sidewalls which "locked in" with this systems wildly endearing soundscape .

Of course, one given to a bit of ocd then tinkering by an inch once every 2 hours over several recordings or three, and perhaps then back two inches - one inch past the original for again a one inch difference for a few hours .
This has been my tinkering and a part of the early Magnepan experience to be expected IMO and with my system .

- An enjoyable note taking and learning experience which never once, "gosh danged it" was heard - other than with Maggies gosh dang speaker connector(s) which ARE a pain .

All very well worth it in the end , a part of the Magnepan experience .

Good valid question , I do think they cannot be forced into a given room position dictated by reasons other than optimum sound quality as I even see so many box speakers .

Nothing at all to be troubled by but yes, this is something to be aware of, they are finicky .



 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 10:16:40
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Timm, I posted something in the very early morning which I inadvertently erased shortly after...coffee was still brewing :) The point is that open dipoles which want to reach down into the low/mid bass frequencies -- unaided by boxed drivers -- are inherently harder to position than those which add boxes for extension.

The flip side is that, once you get pure dipoles properly dialed-in and driven, the (less-known) dynamic impact and bass they bring along can provide a superior experience (jointly with their traditionally-known strengths). With Maggies, one can actually achieve this kind of experience with even some basic models (though with some deliberate tweaking dedication).

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 10:44:34
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Thanks JBen. Yes I got it thru email.

I am fine with effort ... and - duh- I didn't think of the planar bass and how that plays into the picture. This summer I plan on ordering the 'big uns' and will be putting them in my new 17x30 room w carpet and nice acoustic tile. Right now, w it completely empty there is a little slap echo. We will see how that changes as I start filling up the room. However the reason for the question was I am just preparing myself for the job at hand and I have had to work w the logans a bit. But nothing all too difficult.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 11:52:26
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The downside to full range dipoles is that they need plenty of distance to the front wall. Unlike box speakers, which are wall loaded to increase bass by placement near the front wall, planars cancel out more bass as you approach the front wall. Planar dipoles are wall loaded by placement by the sidewalls. With a hybrid the bass requires different wall distances than the planar section. This allows closer placement to the front wall and the planar section's performance can be maintained by wall treatments on the front wall.

The main problem we have in determining placement for a planar dipole is that we can't get the rules for box speaker placement out of our heads. So we keep planning out how the speakers should be placed as somewhere near the front wall and away from the sidewalls. While dipoles do best when far from the front wall and are friendly to the sidewalls where the output is nulled..

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 12:12:17
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Satie. I know you have spoken ad nauseam on the topic , but I enjoy it every time.

Might I ask - what would anybody consider the appropriate distance a 20 series should be inside to inside? Tweets on the inside... My room is 17' wide - but regardless of that - if room wasn't an obstacle how far apart do you think... 9'?? They are so big it is tough to imagine.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 12:37:57
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Generally the idea is that you first see how the central image holds as you pull the speakers farther away from each other. The farther out from the speakers you sit the farther the tweeters can be. In a 17' room the speakers and a minimal gap to the wall fill up nearly 6 feet, leaving you about 11 feet to play with, which in the common 10-13 ft listening distance comes out to you normally not having a limit on how far apart the speakers can go.
The next issue is how you like your soundstage presentation - wide vs deep - and thus the listening angle. The standard stereo placement is a 60deg listening angle on an equilateral triangle. I prefer getting a closer up presentation with a wider angle to favor a front of the hall perspective.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 17:02:36
Desafinado
Audiophile

Posts: 183
Location: Alberta
Joined: March 10, 2013
 After 18 months of experimenting with T-IVa in my new 24 x 17 room I am still astounded by their ability to provide center-fill in their current tweeter-out position with 12' 6" spacing between the ribbons. This leaves roughly 24 inches to the sidewalls. Panels are pulled almost 6 feet off the front wall and listening chair is about the same from the back wall.

If you so choose Timm, the 20.7s should offer the same possibilities for that extra-wide soundstage and the 30' length will provide even more options for stage depth.

Enjoy the placement process when they arrive!

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 18:01:09
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Truly part of the journey. :)

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 2, 2017 at 21:39:08
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Yep, I should have added that observation as well. On my TIV/Neo8 setup on the long wall I got the tweeters as far as 15 ft and change apart. The center image did not fall apart.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 3, 2017 at 06:11:28
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Regarding tweeters in/out I recommend you experiment since each room is different. Also consider MyeStands which will improve overall bass response. And if you go that route throw in a couple sets of wheels. These allows me to criss-cross the extremely heavy panels with ease when doing tweeter in/out evaluations. Once it's determined which position fits best simply replace the wheels with the MyeSpikes.














 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 3, 2017 at 10:07:21
jimf42
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: May 21, 2002
 I have a pair of MGIIIas and I found them pretty easy to dial in...the are a couple of feet off a side wall and about 3 ft off the back wall and toed in about 6 inches... I have varied toe in and different times, but that seems to work well.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 3, 2017 at 12:18:11
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 I would think placing Maggies with separate subwoofers would be less finicky than hybrid ML's with cone bass built-in.

I've never found it to be all that bad myself---I run tweeters in, and with some attenuation resistors and enough space behind, and they sound good. I've had various Maggies in various rooms and never had a problem getting good sound, and didn't do any major treatment.

Now that I use a (sealed) subwoofer with great Anthem ARC correction and bass management, it's even easier.

 

My Maggies are 42" away from back wall, but only 20" (nearest edge)from side walls, posted on April 3, 2017 at 12:59:04
3+4=5
 So I agree with the close to sides far from rear.
I also have 'tweeter in' (to the inner edge, rather than tweeters toward the outer edge)

I basically took the speakers and placed them with the 'tweeter in' so the tweets in the same place as if 'tweeter out' (placing the tweeter in the same exact position.. So my whole speakers are a few feet wider apart.)

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 4, 2017 at 07:49:55
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 So - I know this is just me - getting anxious.... but I have an empty room and so what I did was put the couch in the seating spot .... and have my spots marked for the speakers etc.... and here is where I am at....

Room: 17x30 with a pesky pole.... pole located about 4" on the inside of one Maggie in the null zone.

Speaker placement - 10' from front wall... 18" from side walls.... 10' of space - inside to inside of speaker... tweeters in.

Rack: I'm thinking in between speakers in null zone as well.... just don't know if I can get speaker cable that long... or I should say 'pay for' speaker cable to put it to the side wall.... I'd probably need 15'.

My head: seated at the 21' mark of the room with 9' behind my head..... 11' from speaker plane.

I have a bit of flexibility.... but this will be the initial plopping down spot.... For the first time in my life - I have a rectangular room with speakers equidistant from walls etc...

It will be interesting....

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 4, 2017 at 08:42:44
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 I don't really agree with the premise. A Dipole does not load the room in the low frequencies as a box woofer does. Therefore its position will have less influence on the room response in the room mode frequencies. More importantly, a dipole will minimize side wall first reflection - where a Monopole (box) will exhibit side wall energy that should be attenuated/diffused be room treatment options.

Note: I now have my panels placed to optimize the the reduction of side wall reflective energy. My MMG's are toed in a whopping 45 degrees so that if you were shoot a billiard ball in line with the panel it would bounce off the side wall to the listening seat. With this placement rear wave diffusion is also enhanced.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 4, 2017 at 23:00:45
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Try this with your Logans.

1st place a chair at the back wall about so you are listening at about 2 ft from the wall, centered on the axis between the speakers. Leave the Couch where it is.

Then pull the speakers along the sidewalls forwards by small increments, away from the front wall. Keep the distance to the sidewalls constant. If at some point the soundstage "clicks together" mark that spot and continue with this till you hit the halfway mark or the enhanced soundstage effect breaks down. There is usually at least one narrow region where it works and if you are lucky you might find a second one with a somewhat different tonal balance.

Place the speakers back at the spot you marked where the soundstage was best, and start working out the tonal balance with the speaker controls and by wall loading of the bass; moving the speakers towards and away from the sidewalls.

Then work out the degree of toe in. Logans usually require some toe in while maggies often don't need any at all.

See how that compares with your current setup.

 

RE: My Maggies are 42" away from back wall, but only 20" (nearest edge)from side walls, posted on April 5, 2017 at 22:24:10
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Isn't it funny how the tweeters just need to be at the right distance to the sidewalls whether oriented in or out. and the rest of the speaker can be where it does best for bass mids and imaging. it is also fairly consistent at something like 32".

 

I have my SMGc's in a corner, posted on April 5, 2017 at 22:52:51
kh6idf
Audiophile

Posts: 1474
Location: Texas
Joined: May 2, 2001
 About 4-5 (?) feet out from the corner, each speaker placed within a few inches of the side walls. Tweeters in, and maybe 4 feet apart. Toed in where the axes cross over just behind the listening position (I think). Listening position is of course in front of the speakers and out in the middle of the room, or a bit farther, toward the opposite corner.

I do have some sound absorbing material on the sidewalls to reduce reflected sound, and there are diffusing bookshelves behind the speakers.

Somehow it sounds pretty good like this. It is a small room and that's the only place the speakers would fit. There is a subwoofer in the corner behind the speakers.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 12, 2017 at 07:58:54
joelbaumwoll@earthlink.net
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: April 11, 2017



My Maggies have been set up as in this photo for years. I played around with the angles of the panels and discovered for my room, this configuration produces the most focused sound, best imaging and good bass. I have anchored them with cord to the wall to prevent them from being toppled. The room is over 30'long with a sound absorbent ceiling, and an L opening to the left that carries off standing waves. The sound is superb if sitting down. There is a sweet spot for "serious" listening (red chair).

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 14, 2017 at 05:21:06
joelbaumwoll@earthlink.net
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: April 11, 2017
 My Tympanis are about 15" from the back wall, and are angled as in the photo above thread. I found this gives me a good sound stage and imaging and great bass response. I have not played around with them much as the space is limited behind a dining table. I listen from about fifteen feet when seated. I do find that being seated is critical to the sound. When I stand, I lose quite a bit.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 14, 2017 at 09:01:29
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That is because of the table.

Between the placement too close to the wall and having the table in front of them you are losing quite a bit of performance. If there is a possibility to swap the seating area with the dining area you might manage better placement and configuration.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 14, 2017 at 09:17:55
joelbaumwoll@earthlink.net
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: April 11, 2017
 Satie, You may be right, but I am not going to screw up our room by putting the table in the center. I doubt the table and chairs block much signal. But I can tell you the sound is great. Very life like and exciting. Been that way since 1976!! I have had professional musicians tell me they though they heard live piano, voice and violin before they saw the system.

My obsession has limits. :-)

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 14, 2017 at 12:21:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 My obsession has a dedicated room, spiders and mold after a 3rd flooding in these 2 decades we lived here. Fortunately, that also means I can play as loud as I like in the dead of night as the second floor and acoustic tile are sufficiently far to quiet it down to near silence in the BR.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 14, 2017 at 13:52:40
joelbaumwoll@earthlink.net
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: April 11, 2017
 Ha! That sounds like my wine cellar. My other obsession. Fortunately, I can play as loudly as I wish thanks to several doors and considerable distance between the listening room and the room where my considerate wife retreats when I am in the mood for "live" music.

After repairing the roof, we took care of the mold problem and our cleaning service takes care of the spiders. Our nearest neighbors are far enough away not to hear anything.

I suspect we have a lot inn common. :-)

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:49:08
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Hic hic on your wine cellar. Cheers. and lechayim


Cleaning service quit a decade ago and I am not particularly good at the job. So the listening room has been rechristened as the "humming dungeon" for the dehumidifier working there most of the time.

 

RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole, posted on April 17, 2017 at 12:34:37
rw11
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: OR
Joined: March 16, 2017



what about this setup?

There is another, even larger, picture window on the side wall at 90 degrees to the one shown.
I'm not able to put up curtains, etc. on the windows but they seem like a problem....

I do have a rug centered in front of them

 

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