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DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ...

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Posted on March 23, 2017 at 13:33:15
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
Verdict : Seemingly sentenced to life , in my system of componets with 3.7i mains .

1. DWM panels:

Said to the dealer upon their return: These DWM panels should be offered as a part of any 3.7i sales.

I had to solicit a trial from my dealer (45 minutes away), for what turned out to be a 4 day trial, and I am so very glad I took that initiative.

Appearently Magnepan had just discontinued their 30 trial of these DWMs , which I remembered reading on their site page .

In any event, here in my reconfigured room and in my experience ,
just an " Oh My gawd this is an incredible , substantial and requsite addition to my systems presentation." (I actually heard myself say.)

Meaning, terrific dynamics of attack on string bass , whallops on drum skins and definitive seperation and articulation between coincident bass drum kick and bass string reverberation and decay on recordings, that the two otherwise usually are of one beat in the hi-rez 192hz mix / presentation.

2. - Of course, all owning to this Sanders Magtech workhorse in place now driving this system - Neutrally , never cold or at all brash just lucidly and intelligibly presenting "The Truth" effortlessly , as the formidable soundscape appears .

Initially , I listened with one transducer per component each, in stereo and I would latter return to this hookup as being near perfect in my room .

I wasn't given resistors with which to attenuate by degrees what I found to be an over excited room in terms of both lower and mid bass quantity when operating both DWMs full open both transducers inline .

In conclusion of these trial(s) hear-buy , Seemingly sentenced to the asylum , happily ;')

- Both highly recommended (inserts obligatory floor jaw drop chuckles here.


- Finesse n' Badness , indeed ...




 

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RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ... , posted on March 23, 2017 at 16:20:54
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 At airport & on phone...pls xcuse typos.

Thats terrific news! I am thrilled that it is starting off so well for you. Pls sketch layout when u get a chance. Also, the hook up paths.
Have fun!

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ... , posted on March 27, 2017 at 15:30:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Really good to hear, how did you lay out the speakers and DWMs?

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ... , posted on March 27, 2017 at 20:22:29
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 Set up mains 14" off side wall , 8' out from FW and less toe in of
only 2" with tweets inboard . Panels both side wall butted 14" forward of mains . I have a notepad collection of "best spot" measurements but this was one of the best .

- DWM wired to only one set of speaker posts was just what sounded right although with a bit of upper mid bass yet needing an inductor(?) for it to be rolled off lower.(?)

I was not given resistors or inductors during the four day trial ; Which is a good question I need answered : Both transducers were powered weren't they as hooked up ?

I have great hopes of not needing to use the Halo A-21 & its preamp just to attenuate the volume but that is yet an option I hadn't tried .

I do so love what they brought to the presentation here , visceral impacts, definition and fatter tone to kettle drums and that rumble of bass notes being highly articulate, as well as a show of not air movement at all like paper cones pushed by 800 - 900w but a hell of alot like it the maggie way , YES felt in the chest - And this is at moderate levels.

Now if I only knew about inductors to be delivered along with the custom order dark grey covered, black rails with dark grey bow front dress up kit in about , you think , 3 weeks (hopefully, maybe).

I'm sure of it, I will be able to run all off of the Magtech and resistor down the volume , roll off the mid bass with inductor(s) by trial and trial and just a smidgen to the inch and back .

Had the couch moved from the back wall to a side and have two LPs on center in this small theater / listening room , both near field and 4'
off of back wall .

Had gear racks installed and trying to use some absorption panels and bass traps easily moved for a more lively display .

Every time I inserted the Magtech I was mostly satisfied more often than things not sounding right and needing more adjustments for the Halo A21 to sound its best. Giving each a full day each then half day switch outs.

I really was wanting the Halo to be satisfying too and to send Dr. Sanders piece back; But we all know how it is once we hear something better we just cannot help ourselves but to choose the piece presenting a multifaceted improvement to well known tunes .

I found the Magtech most musical due to its improvement in pacing through dynamic swings to that black space and beat done effortlessly and just sounding "Right" .

Took me awhile to put my finger on it , but that's it , superbe pacing which the A21 just doesn't compare to - As well it shouldn't both at half watts & price.

Another improvement was a cleaner window allowing fleshed out details to be known as the instrument plays off in the further background rather than only notes heard , often with violins for instance .

Takes time to appreciate fully these differences in micro and then to name each, but in macro view , it just sounds brutally RIGHT , Magtech vs Halo A21 .

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ... , posted on March 30, 2017 at 08:06:05
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That is very good.

I like that you use some sidewall loading for your DWMs as well as the mains. Correct me if I gt it wrong, your placement is
1. Plain of speakers is 8ft in front of the front wall.
2. Speakers are spaced 14" from the sidewalls
3. Toe in is mild at 2" offset of tweeter side vs bass side.
4. DWM are placed each 14" in front of the mains and placed right off the sidewalls (with no significant gap)

The wiring scheme is using one set of wire traces per each DWM. Resistor adjustment and additional inductors are still in process. So far the DWMs appear to be playing a bit too high up with the original crossover and need an additional inductor to restrict their coverage to lower frequencies.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on March 30, 2017 at 19:24:17
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 That is all correct , Satie.

A couple of insights :

Magtech : Does run hot , actually scared my forearm on the fins by reaching to its back while fishing wires , four lines of burnt skin scared -
(lol , should be added to my service record for possible "yoyo ribbon" award ).

Confirmed with Angela hot running is normal under load - Just wanted to clear-up the facts , whereas I was under the impression , read here , that the Magtech runs cool .

The Sanders Magtech Under 4ohm load driving my 3.7i @ 86 dbs @ 1m , in 78 degree ambient temperature and set alone out in the open centered between mains operates hotter to the touch than the Halo A21 though it does have much larger fin area.

Several points of interest Dr Sanders wrote to me in answer to my questions re: use of the tubed hybrid Preamp Arc LS-17se , explaining multiple reasons why I should choose unbalanced connections for the best potential sound quality with the Magtech and a tubed preamp .

I was aware "Balanced Connections" may offer no real sound quality improvements - I was never aware such connections actually could be detrimental to sound quality or at the least measures noisier and that is the case in fact .

Sanders Quote:

"
I designed my amplifiers so that they are compatible with all preamps. Tube preamps often present a problem when driving solid state amplifiers because tubes are inherently high impedance devices. The laws of physics dictate that the impedance of the source (the preamp in this case) must be lower than the load impedance (the amplifier). Ideally, there should be at least a 1:10 ratio between the two, so the amp should have an input resistance that is at least 10x higher than the preamp.

Transistors typically have low impedance while tubes have high impedance. As a result, there is often an impedance mismatch between tube preamps and solid state amps.

To solve this problem, I use FETs (Field Effect Transistors) at the input of my amps. FETs have very high input impedance similar to tubes (about 10 megohm). I stabilize the input impedance with a precision resistor to 100 Kohm. That way, even a very high output impedance tube preamp will have no trouble driving my amp.

I make this high input impedance available through the unbalanced RCA input in my amps. The balanced input has a much lower input impedance of only 1 Kohm, which would be unsuitable for most tube preamps. The balanced input will still work with the 600 ohm output impedance of your ARC preamp, but it is not ideal. You would get much better results using the unbalanced input with its 100 Kohm input impedance.

Some audiophiles believe that balanced operation is better than unbalanced operation. I suspect you are one of them. So let me explain the differences in the two systems. After I do, I think you will come to appreciate that operating your system in unbalanced mode is not only just as good as balanced, but actually better. " - End quote

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on March 30, 2017 at 19:51:00
timm
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Well that is because of the impedance matching issue he describes. He gives you a choice. I'll give you an example. I have a Cary slp98p which has about a 600 ohm impedance but that swings upward to 6k ohm at lower frequency. My amp has a 24k ohm impedance. I found lower frequencies better just running direct from my ps audio directstream to my amp. The directstream is 120 ohm flat across all frequencies. I would love to 'fix' this as I really like my Cary.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , " On Trial " ... , posted on March 30, 2017 at 20:01:29
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 Hey ya , JBen .

Thanks for the early encouragement - It all has been fun and informative though , a lot of difficulty and pain for one with mobility issues at the early onset age of 64 . Youngster here , lol ;')

Fortunate for the efforts of my niece in all of this !

So far as accuracy in reporting I myself forgot and forgot to mention these 3.7i are only now approaching 175 hours @ 10 hrs per day break-in - They are now settled in as opposed to early on in this review of the amp and bass panels . Yes, I am even more enamored and impressed now that the Maggies are fully settled in and consistent .

- Good listening

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on March 30, 2017 at 20:30:19
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 Yeah, timm .

I too enjoy running direct out of the Aurender A10 ( presents an organic tone ) a most focused image though less air and space between instruments vs the addition of the untube like sound of the LS17se (as near S.S. sounding as one can imagine , especially in its presentation of bass ) , but what it brings to the presentation is a wider larger soundstage affording more air and space between .

The A10 also matches well with placing most vocals further back so as to eliminate most outsized upfront vocals with all but the most deliberate upfront vocals - No doubt all of this is in part to the Magtechs peculiarities of presentation in total with these Maggies , in this particular room too.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on March 31, 2017 at 10:23:49
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Yes, impedance matching is always an issue with tube preamps. In addition to that there is the issue of the preamp being normally unbalanced in internal operation so that using balanced connections introduces crossover distortion in converting from SE to BAL and back. The Magtech solution of treating both inputs seriously with an eye to optimizing the most likely preamp options to go with each is very welcome.

Not surprised by the Magtech running hot. Running that much current for the 3.7i and the pair of DWM requires much power and is a rather low impedance load so is a very high current requirement. While the maggie spec is 86 db sensitivity, independent measurements in the full spectrum are more like 83 db sensitivity.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on March 31, 2017 at 23:26:21
BDP24
Audiophile

Posts: 1070
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Joined: September 12, 2013
 The EAR-Yoshino 868 line-level pre-amp provides both single-ended RCA outputs and balanced XLR ones, the balanced output achieved via transformers. EAR's designer Tim de Paravicini does a lot of work in the Pro field (for instance the Pink Floyd studio in England), where I guess that is common. Many "high-end" companies provide balanced outputs on their pre-amps via Opamps and other quality-compromising means, even Audio Research. Atma-Sphere's designer Ralph Karsten is very sold on the benefits of balanced circuits (even in domestic hi-fi's), providing only true differential balanced inputs and outputs on his pre-amps and power amps.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on April 1, 2017 at 08:26:36
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 There is a benefit to having a transformer output to a SE tube circuit as it can lower output impedance and offer a true balanced signal with minimal added distortion since it is replacing the output capacitor. Balanced Audio Technology does produce lots of internally balanced components. But true balanced construction just doubles your parts count. So it comes as at a price.

 

RE:... even more enamored and impressed now that..., posted on April 1, 2017 at 10:25:14
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Well, Finbad, that's the thing I could sense and enjoy in your OP. Perhaps I am more sensitive about this these days. With me having to deal with unexpected lots of work and family-related travel over the past few weeks, the chance to listen to my system has been nil. Enjoying vicariously is still sweet enough, at least for a while.

Fresh from another trip, I now fear that I may soon "lose" my own system soon. Or rather, that it may be about to be stripped of some of its charms. A while ago, not knowing what was coming, I put it back in "development mode". This, to retune it for a larger TV in the middle; to go from the current 42" to a 55" (with an unlikely 60" wanted as a minimum by my wife).

Unfortunately, I've had no time and now the new TV will be here in a few days...and I never even fully refined the tweaks. Worse, in my absence, the 65" monster ordered by my wife {with a suspicious "but darling I thought it was such a terrific deal!") is all but assured to surpass my tweaking abilities.

So, tomorrow may be the last time I enjoy things "the way they were". Then again, with myself hitting your current age in just a few months from now, it could turn out for the better. It may mean that another shot of youthful zest and tweaking creativity may be coming my way.

Or, at least, just enough strength to drag the new monster into our bedroom and make it a HUGE cinema at the foot of the bed!* [LOL, but seriously.]

* Hmm, hey Josh, this would make you happy enough in lieu of the projector, would it not? :)

 

RE:... even more enamored and impressed now that..., posted on April 2, 2017 at 08:46:34
Norman M
 Let me suggest that together with your wife you sit back and enjoy your wonderful new TV! Although it's not 'audio', it can provide many pleasurable hours of entertainment. You might even let 'audio' take second place.

 

RE:... even more enamored and impressed now that..., posted on April 2, 2017 at 09:55:13
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Thanks for the thought, Norman. The "together" thing is the key, and foremost. The Lord knows that cuddling on that couch to watch TV together is, by itself, a most meaningful event for us.

The challenge is to keep the other things that matter to each of us individually, also. This, fortunately, is important to both of us. We'll find a way.

As I was just telling a friend, I'll just have to polish up my tweaking skills. For now, I am out to Harbor Freight to get some cheap long clamps. That freaking thing weights twice what the other one. I may need reinforce the furniture before it arrives.

 

RE:... even more enamored and impressed now that..., posted on April 2, 2017 at 11:44:13
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 Some compromises must be made for a happy home ;')

Now, about that projector ! lol

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on April 9, 2017 at 10:08:54
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I too have 3.7i and DWMS. The further out in the room that I bring out the mains, the more they need the DWMs. At 8 foot, the DWMs really help bring out the mid and upper bass. I just wished they rolled off faster in the midrange.

I have a wide selection of resistors and attenuators. In a smaller room the resistors are mandatory, in my larger room, not so much.

One other trick I have used to occasional success is to not aim the DWMs forward. This will help them roll off faster on the top. This is not how I am currently using them, but it has worked in some set ups. As an extreme, you can even have them run parallel to the SW. It all just depends...

The addition of the DWMs really seems to take a toll on my Pass amp -- the bias needles bounce like an earthquake with any volume. My alternative amp -- Emotiva XPA 1s rarely even get warm to the touch though.

 

RE: DWM Bass Panels & Sanders Magtech , (LONG) ... , posted on April 9, 2017 at 19:28:30
finbad
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: St. Pete Beach
Joined: September 29, 2016
 Thank you so very much Cat with sharing your experience now and yours read elsewhere in my research .

Mr Diller sent along, at my request, two proper inductors and an assortment of standard Maggie resistors(the cost effective ones;) to get started , as you say, to roll off the mids as well as reduce the amplitude of the stronger than needed signal. Oh, at no cost to myself.

Again, I had settled on only needing to use one set of terminals and that was still a bit much due to this small room syndrome ; So, this is where I might like to further pick of your grey matter once the new panels arrive , please.

Latest Dealer inquired ETA email from Magnepan suggested 4 weeks in total, with two weeks left on that calendar.
Dealer tossed in the dress-up kit and upgraded silver material covering no cost. Of course, I can wait - I really can wait ( self talk ;)

Inquiring with Grant VanderMye on stand purchases , However my dealer was unsure, but he thought that the modification needed would void my warranty as he seemed to remember - So, I must get that issue settled with a call to Wendlle to be verified.

Speaker cables ?

Your thoughts or others opinions would be welcomed ;

Regards,
Will

 

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