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Satie (et al) - Question about Limage

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Posted on February 20, 2017 at 07:49:37
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Sitting around with not much to do but thinking about a Limage setup. Below is a diagram of my current room - 20'wide 23' deep with a 6x8 cutout for a bath. The speakers are about 5' from the front wall and 3' from the sides. Chair is about 10'from the speakers. Speakers are about 10' apart (inside measurement).
Do you think I could do a Limage setup in this room? FWIW, I cannot do anything for a few weeks other than think about it otherwise I would just try it out.
As I understand it, the Limage would mean moving the speakers closer to the side walls so they would be about 15' apart and eliminating the toe-in, and perhaps pulling them out further. Is this correct?




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

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RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 11:46:34
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 The speakers would be pulled out from the front wall 40% into the room. Within 1' of the side wall, tweeters in pointing straight ahead ( No toe in). You also need to be sitting within 2' of the back wall. That might be a problem. Limage seems to work best in a dedicated music room.
You can try it but I don't think it will work for you
Alan

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 12:00:56
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 I use the HK Limage setup, and I believe it works better with a rectangular listening room. This appears almost square. Only one way to know is to try it, but the room is less than optimal, I think.

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 12:01:45
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Thanks, you are probably right unless I want to sit in the "kitchen" and that bathroom while very convenient (the room is separate from the house) sorta mucks things up a bit. I did have the setup rotated clockwise 90 deg. at one time, but the current setup is much more pleasing both aesthetically and acoustically.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 12:03:47
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 In your room the L shape created by the bath is going to make things difficult. With your seat by the kitchen there is no way to have a line of sight to the right hand speaker once it is placed by the wall for wall loading.

There are two things to try with Limage placements here. In both cases you will need to have your seat on the wall with the CDs and LP shelving.

Version 1, to start you will need to put up quite a bit of absorption on the wall of the bath where your sub and daybed are. Sofa cushions and such are good enough for the experiment. You may want to put a diffusor or similar absorption on the other side in order to provide symmetry and avoid channel balance shifts with freq.. Though I very much doubt you would get sufficient diffusion to that bathroom wall with a fake ficus, it is worth a try before you pile up absorption on it. The speaker would go on the 40% mark from the back wall (remember that your new Limage front wall is the kitchen) as you are working with the other side of the Limage setup rather than the normal 40% distance from the FRONT wall.

The speakers would be 1 ft from the sidewalls to start and facing forwards tweeters inwards.
Your seat is right at the shelving.

Start with adjusting the distance from the front wall (probably easier to measure from the back wall, since it is more uniform. Then fine tune the gaps to the sidewalls, then see how much toe in you need.

The second setup would use the bathroom wall's corner for wall loading. If you have a bookcase* you can use to extend the bathroom wall then it would have a greater chance of working. If so, your target distance from the Front wall (kitchen wall) is 9-10 ft. Your seat would be at the back wall - about 2 ft into the room and centered to the speakers. That would leave you off center to the room.

Follow the same procedure working on distance to the front wall first then side walls then seating and then toe in.

*The bookcase should have its back to the room and the shelving facing the daybed area. it would be better if you had a wider bookshelf unit - like greater than 3 ft wide.

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 15:32:30
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Thanks for the ideas and the time you spent figuring this out. Unfortunately, the WAF - yes, it is "my" room but it is a virtual "my" :) - probably will not allow me to turn the room around. I guess, I will just have to live with what I got. BTW, I do have absorption on the front wall now and also bass traps in the corner behind the daybed. My main problem is a peak at 45 hz. I can calm it by shutting off the sub but then the there is falloff below 40 hz rather than extending out to 20 hz with the sub. I have tried all sorts of sub placement without much success - probably need a 2nd sub.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 16:09:55
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 If the speakers are placed 1' from the side walls wouldn't they be too far apart for a solid center sound stage and not hearing individual rt.& left speakers?

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 20, 2017 at 19:29:08
watts
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Location: B.C.
Joined: June 30, 2004



No Limage soup for you!

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 21, 2017 at 06:39:15
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Not necessarily, I have put the tweeters 16-17 ft apart and still had good center imaging. The Limage positioning scheme uses the sidewall reflections to produce a composite virtual speaker spaced about the width of the room in size.

If you aim your speakers at the sidewalls to bounce the signal off of them then you create a virtual speaker behind the wall and you can see for yourself that center fill remains quite full. Look up "Rooze" for details on how to angle the speakers.

 

RE: Satie (et al) - Question about Limage, posted on February 21, 2017 at 09:56:46
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 In the Limage setup just the opposite happens. You do not hear the individual speakers at all and the space between the speakers just fills up with sound. Limage is counter intuitive but it works in the right room
Alan

 

Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 21, 2017 at 19:15:07
RealStereo
 Tried it in both rectangular and square rooms, and never liked it.

Do not waste your time IMO!

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 22, 2017 at 06:53:12
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 It's only a waste of time if it doesn't work in a particular setup. When it does work, it is quite amazing.

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 22, 2017 at 15:32:48
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Quite a few people here use the Limage setup and love it but because you don't like it everybody should listen to you. I know it is your opinion not to like it but why do you care if other people try it?
Alan

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 23, 2017 at 03:48:31
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 With Limage,what degree of toe in are you using?

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 23, 2017 at 06:25:35
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 You have no toe-in with the Limage setup. Speakers face straight ahead
Alan

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 23, 2017 at 08:13:21
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 You can apply a very small bit of toe in for the Limage position, but the effect collapses when you go beyond a handful of degrees.

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 23, 2017 at 15:54:40
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Thanks for that detail of little to no toe in.Do the speakers need to be no more than 1' from the side walls?

 

RE: Limage setup method sounds very strange IMO!, posted on February 24, 2017 at 00:22:41
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The slot between the speaker and the sidewall is adjusted during setup. 1 ft is a starting point and most folks who use the setup do around 11". The main effect is in tonal character,, warmer and bassier with a narrower spacing and lighter and brighter as you pull further out from the sidewalls.

Toe in is the last thing to fine tune and is usually quite minimal.

 

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