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Power humor?

50.46.199.137

Posted on December 8, 2016 at 14:05:48
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
One of the most common Magnepan clichés I read is 'they need power' which is why I originally thought to try some cheap used Crown XLS 2500's which were a vast improvement over my Maggie dealers $3k Rotel option.

Thanksgiving weekend at a point when my blood sugar was probably too low I saw a Black Friday online add for a Crown Macro-Tech 5000i which may have been mistakenly priced too low. I confess I followed the shiny object.

It's watt specs are:
2Ω 20mS BURST 2Ω 20Hz-20kHz 4Ω 8Ω
----------------------------------------------
3000W 2000W 2500W 1250W

It is advertised as stable to 1 ohm.

The result is a different pair of speakers. I keep going downstairs to make sure its real. Objectively per REW the SPL below 200HZ goes up relative to the SPL above 200HZ. I typically sit about 8 feet from the back wall. At 2 feet from the back wall 20 to 30HZ SPL matches SPL above 200HZ. Symphony wise, depending upon the recording as always, there is far more clarity of and volume of say double bass and bassoon. Bass drums rumble as intended and tympani clarity can startle. The level of detail for all instruments is much greater. And I could go on and on.

This amp connects to my laptop and shows input, output and load levels. It has volume rather than gain knobs like the XLS. My Oppo which is connected directly outputs 4.2v and the default input on the Crown is 1.4v so at first input clipped constantly. I had to set the sensitivity to 26DB to stop input clipping or turn down the Oppo's output using its digital volume control which seems to affect quality. I mention this because I don't recall every reading about input clipping as a problem in audiophile land.

When I added my pair of DWM in parallel the load dropped below 2 ohm which explains why I and others have seen paralleled DWM's turn amps into space heaters. The statement I read somewhere from someone who's name I will not mention that 'they don't draw that much' doesn't seem to be quite complete enough.

So far this amp experience suggests that More Power diminishes the need for DWMs and my Rythmik sub which I find amusing at least.

Oh well back to researching Lab.Gruppen, AES digital inputs and pro amps with DSP EQ.

 

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Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 14:49:11
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4841
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 2, 2004
You need get another one to keep it company and put those puppies into bridged mode - a mere 2400 wpc :).



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 14:58:42
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
Are you Serious or just teasing? They are already 2500 wpc into 4 ohms. I understand the Crown folks and other pro types don't recommend bridging if the load goes below 4 ohms.

I have another coming via eBay that I will use for a DWM test before using for another purpose.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:09:54
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
The i series Crowns is a previous generation. They were being cleared out. But you obviously got a great deal if it was anywhere near the XLS series equivalent in pricing.

The specs are very close to those of my 5002VZ which is linear, vs the 5000i which is class D. I am assuming that it sounds more like a smooth top end of a class D amp than the somewhat analytical and dry MA series amps. That would make for an ideal maggie amp with ample - probably overkill power.

The thing that people don't want to believe is how much bass can come out of a maggie if its stiff diaphragm is controlled by seriously beefy high current amp. The back EMF it produces has to be enormous and most high power amps would just plain lose their "S%#$t" and their power supplies sag. Put the proper power on a maggie and you get an extra octave of extension and seriously impressive midbass. On the Tympani bass panels the MA5002 provides deep powerful bass and midbass dynamics that challenge such bass masters as the Focal Nova utopia.

In short it is a different world when you have THE POWER.

Congrats.

 

$$$?, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:13:39
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Is it actually being sold for $400??? and if so where?

 

RE: Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:17:31
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4841
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 2, 2004
Just yankin' your chain, but at only $400 a pop, it gets one thinking.

BTW, the manual says they deliver that 2500W in bridged mode into a 4 ohm load, not per channel in stereo mode. If the manufacturer says it can be used bridged into 4 ohms, it should be safe to try with the Maggies since most models do not have impedance drops. Which model are you using? And as always, active biamping is a better choice than bridging two amps.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:21:20
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
AFAIK the Macro-Tech i replaces Macro-Tech. I gather it may be Crown's last analog hog. I was researching used I-Tech 5000HD when I cam across this 'sale'. They now have it like most dealers back to $4600+ up from the sale price $2236 including shipping. One Amazon seller has it at $3300 though that seller seems to get confused about which model is which.

 

Check out Amzon.com, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:23:13
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4841
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 2, 2004
$405.14 and free shipping with Prime (you can get a free 30-day trial). I think they are phasing the amp out in favor of the XLS 2502.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:24:34
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
I got my XLS 2500 for $400 or less used. This MA-5000i was $2236 which violated all of my rules for hifi $tuff.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/ma-5000i

This amp shows 1.7 by themselves running frequently at about 3.8 to 3.9 ohms and once I saw 3.4

 

RE:...people don't want to believe is how much bass can come out of a maggie , posted on December 8, 2016 at 16:06:00
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since:
July 26, 2010
Amen :)

(and like Neo suggests, even with regular power amps powering each driver separately)

 

RE: Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 16:44:29
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Well, that is a fair price for it. The old linear MA 5000 series still go for $1.5-2K used

The big deal is that it is 60% off at that price.

 

RE: Don't pussyfoot around, posted on December 8, 2016 at 16:45:42
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
That is for the XLS2500 not the MA5000i

 

4,000 watts?! whoa, posted on December 8, 2016 at 19:52:54
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
June 17, 2003
(bridged 4 ohm)that's a lot of juice flowing through a pair of old ladies : )

article









 

I'd say grab that one because , posted on December 8, 2016 at 19:57:41
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
June 17, 2003
this one is a wee bit more!









 

RE: I'd say grab that one because , posted on December 8, 2016 at 20:10:22
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
Yep. And the alternate seller listed below is at $3300. I got another on eBay, new full warranty, on the 'pay your money and take your chances plan' for $2100 plus shipping.

 

RE: 4,000 watts?! whoa, posted on December 8, 2016 at 21:50:45
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Yes, these amps are something else. You need to hear how much bass they can blast out of a Tympani.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 08:04:41
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
I've never heard the Crown XLS 2500 on my MG-2.5's but I did have the Crown XLS 1500 for a while. I don't know how similar the two are but while the '1500 had plenty of power, it had a serious lack of grunt in the low end. Definitely not a high-current design. Fast forward to a BGW 750C. While packing about 100w.p.c. @ 4-ohms less that the '1500, it definitely had the current to make the low end come alive! Instruments with low bass noted became more than just a hint of themselves. Almost immediately I began wanting to use one amp (in mono mode) per channel. Will running 1kw per Ch. qualify me to come off the porch and run with the big boys? =)

 

RE: 4,000 watts?! whoa, posted on December 9, 2016 at 08:14:45
"Whoa", can one hear quiet music passages over the noise of their fans? If not, they might be sold with extra long speaker wire and interconnects so they can be placed in a closet in an adjacent room. Then try not to get trip or get tangled up in them and break your neck. I think I'd rather pass on them, (maybe even Nelson Pass on them).

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 08:16:51
Are you playing your system louder than you did with your previous amplifier??

These high power amplifiers are engineered with higher voltage gains so nominal line-level voltages can still achieve the rated output.
Actually, when you reduced the gain knob to a 26db setting you engaged an attenuator that limits the amplifier to one quarter of its rated output.

There is also the AC power input limitations to consider. The branch circuit in your home is probably not up to the challenge of providing the necessary power for this amp.
This is not a huge linear PS amplifier so it doesn't have the huge current reserves one of those might.

I have no doubt you experienced a subjective improvement using this amplifier, but it's not related to the power..capability..of this amp, if you're still playing at the same SPL levels.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 08:25:38
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
I'll have to leave the answer to others who have experience with more amps and speakers than me.

I am just surprised at how much bass increases with more watts even though the SPL stays the same. Ditto for clarity and soundstage. I don't know if I've reached the performance limit for increased watts or how much lower I can go and get the same performance.

One XLS 2500 per speaker including the DWM worked best assuming XLR connections and very short cables for the DWM.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 08:41:25
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
Same SPL per my meter.

No on the branch circuit power limitations, I ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit to my listening room and I have a separate 15 amp circuit for the TV and Oppo. Crown publishes power draw for all of their amps. They give the amps per voltage setting (120,240 etc.) at near clip and clip.

REW now shows a frequency response curve with higher SPL below 200 HZ compared to above 200 HZ for the 1.7 alone (down to 40HZ) compared to the 1.7 plus 2 DWM plus Rythmik F15HP. When I listen I set volume so it rarely goes above 85 db. The cleaner the sound gets the easier it is on my ears to turn up the volume and me not notice.

In the subjective listening department in orchestral passages with double bass the bass are clearly louder...much easier to follow the tune.

 

One thing you won't have to do...., posted on December 9, 2016 at 14:35:34
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
Utter the phrase "Scottie, we need more power" :)

 

RE: how much bass can come out of a maggie if its stiff diaphragm is controlled ..., posted on December 9, 2016 at 18:58:35
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
I can well, believe that, Satie - having never used a KW amp on my bass panels.

But deep + loud = maximimum excursion = getting into weak magnetic fields ... so unless you have a 20.X set (with its double-sided magnet array), I suggest a better result - in terms of deep bass - will come from my 15" 'Ultimax' sealed subs (driven by 800w plate amps), with the bass panels rolled off to stop them excurting too much into a lower-strength magnetic field.

I have an organ LP with a test track at the end having 16hz, 12hz & 8hz (64' pipe!) tones. With these subs, I can now hear the 12hz tone! Amazing!! :-))


Andy

 

RE: 4,000 watts?! whoa, posted on December 9, 2016 at 20:45:29
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
The fans continue to operate for a short while after prolonged loud bass heavy passages and it can get annoying if it is followed by a very quiet passage. Most of the time it is not a problem. There are wires everywhere anyway. A 100 ft length of 7 gauge stranded wire is waiting to be made into bass speaker wire to allow placing the amp in the next room - eventually.

 

RE: how much bass can come out of a maggie if its stiff diaphragm is controlled ..., posted on December 9, 2016 at 21:00:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
I think the main problem the more powerful amp provides is covering the back emf current while maintaining output. I only managed to get slap on test tones with unusually loud settings.I posted about it a few years ago.

I have no doubt that great big subwoofers dedicated to the bottom octave will do better there than the Tympani does. But the point is that they do it on their own - given enough power and sufficient bracing.. I ran very satisfying Widor Organ Symphony 5. Complete with 16 hz pedals - diminished vs the ones in the 25hz and up range but still there loud and clear. Much more so with wall loading than without.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 21:17:30
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Same observation. The bass response extends lower and the whole bottom end is just plain louder - and the lower the frequency the louder the difference compared to the bridged Classe DR9. For anyone with visions of it going up in smoke in bridged mode, it doe not have a problem and Classe rated the DR9 to 2 ohms in bridged mode 800W at 4 ohms. Initially I had the thought of getting another DR9 but it became clear that I was stretching it in bridged mono on test signals loud enough to match the levels I wanted and which clipped the Bryston 4B NRB routinely.

My crown is linear, but the dual "i" class switching amps in each channel droop far less than most class D with similar ratings. The 5002VZ does 2500 @2ohms and the 5000i does 2000W. In bridged mono into 4 ohms the linear amp does 5kw and the class "i" version of D runs 4kw. So yes, it does not sustain high power into low freq and low loads as well, but it is very close.

 

RE: Power humor?, posted on December 9, 2016 at 21:25:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Josh made a similar observation on the XLS2500 not having the "grunt" for low bass notes compared to both the Emotiva XPA 1 and the Parasound Halo A21, despite higher power ratings.
Without really big capacitor banks or a second amp (like Crown class "i") class D amps sag as you go below 60 hz..

I gave my Crown its own 25 amp circuit, 1 of 4 in the listening room. 1 is for the dedicated AC dehumidifier and hepa filter 1 for sources an 1 for whatever I need.

 

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