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Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?

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Posted on August 31, 2016 at 15:08:40
Boulder Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: June 23, 2008
 I never had a great room or great power amps for my Tympani I-Ds. I bought them used in 1982. I did enjoy them with a pair of NAD power amps bridged (one for each channel) but the Tympanis eventually failed (the usual old Magnepan wire breakage).
I now have a 22 X 25 room and a Threshold Stasis II power amp. I have been listening to a pair of Paradigm Studio 100/v2s for about 5 years now. There are times when the top end gets a little screetchy for me but overall I do like them. They would be relegated to my "secondary" system if I get the Maggies rebuilt.
So I'm thinking about sending the Maggies back to the factory for a complete rebuild. I don't have any money in the budget for any more power amps, although I do have a Mac MC240 in the garage - I could sell it to finance something. But I'm also worried I would regret selling the Mac someday.
My question is: should I send them back? I expect a lot of encouragement from this forum!
Is it possible to bi wire the Maggies? Is it worth it? Will the factory do anything besides return the crossover to original specs?
I'm supposed to eliminate the fuses, right? just solder a wire? what about using the "new" "high end" fuses?
When you bi amp (one amp for tweeters and one amp for woofers) is it necessary to use identical amps? I also have a pair of PSE power amps- not as sweet sounding as the Threshold. I understand passive bi amping is not optimal. On a budget - what is a good active crossover? I see the Bryston used on eBay now for around $1200.
Bottom line - I'm a little worried that I will drop $2000 (my estimated total cost including shipping) and be underwhelmed. Obviously a big question is: Do I have a power amp that is a good match?

 

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RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on August 31, 2016 at 15:41:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 First the T 1D is worth the repair and SHOULD be biamped. your active XO will just consist of a box with a cap for the tweeter amp and a resistor and cap for the bass amp.

The PSE amps are sweet when not meeting high power demands so can go on top and you will like them well enough. The tweeter does not demand much power the hog is the bass panels.

If you don't think you have tears in the mylar then expect the repair cost to be less than the quote.

When the amps have tested out and shown to work well with the speaker you can take the fuses out by soldering the wire going into the fuse to the wire coming out. .

 

RE: Should I get myITympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 09:58:57
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I think it would be well worth to have them repaired.
As Satie says, you can use a passive line level crossover rather than an active crossover. Actually a PLLXO will outperform an active XO. I can provide you with the values if you decide to go this route. BTW AndyR has some analog active crossovers that he is no longer using - you might want to contact him to see if he wants to unload them. The cheapest approach to a quality active xo would probably be a DIY using modules from Rod Elliott. The DIY does not require great skills -- just a bit of soldering. Cost would be around $100. Again, I will be happy to assist you in getting the right components and modifying the boards to work for first order filters.
You do not need to use identical amplifiers but the gains (not sensitivity) should be the same. If the gains are different this can be compensated in the crossover.

Note: A passive crossover is amp and preamp dependent and changes in these components means changing the resistors and caps in the passive. They work best with SS preamps (low impedance) and amps with impedances above 50 Kohm.
IMO biwiring is a waste of wire.




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 1, 2016 at 16:01:02
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12551
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 2 sets of T-1Ds have been re-wired here in Oz, recently (all 6 panels):

* the first set were re-wired with the same wire Magnepan used. The driver panels were then installed in hardwood frames, with braced stands. The result is sensational - although they are in a small room (which you wouldn't think could 'work'), the resulting sound is the culmination of an idea the owner has held onto for 30 years, after hearing a pair of Tymps at a dealer.

* the second pair had the 4x bass panels re-wired using quasi ribbon - with the tweeter panels being re-wired with round-wire. Again, they are now in hardwood frames, with braced stands. What is extremely interesting is that the owner had the chance to compare T-1Ds with round-wire bass panels against his quasi-ribbon bass panels ... the quasi-ribbon produces a significant improvement in bass dynamics! :-))

For both of these guys, the next step is to go active.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 08:53:56
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 It is a good idea to refurbish Tympanies!

Using foil conductors will reduce the possible tension of the Mylar as it covers a larger portion of the of the driver than round wire.
As the limit of tension/excursion is a weakness of the Magneplanar driver, why reduce it even further? I think the change of the resonant behavior of the driver results in a slightly raised fundamental resonant frequency, giving a "faster" bass or the impression of a more dynamic bass. Low bass is always "slow".

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 09:21:59
Norman M
 Absolutely (seconded or thirded). There isn't a Maggie model that beats a Tympani. All you need is the $$$ to pack them up (the proper Magneplaner carton may be a necessity), ship them off to White Bear Lake and pay for a rebuild/refurnish. I don't know if Magnepan does other than rebuild to original spec., but if they offer options (other than fabric color) heed the advice of the experts here. (The proper space to enjoy listening to them might come as an added bonus.)
and pay for a complete rebuild.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 09:50:20
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Magnepan always rebuild to original specs, no upgrades. However, they can use foil conductors in some cases where there were round wires. It is so because they have run out of some thin wires, like the ones in Tympani tweeters.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 6, 2016 at 16:58:19
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 I am the owner of the recently refurbished T1D's with the QR
as Andyr refers to.

IMO they make a huge difference.

Photos to come.

Cheers.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 6, 2016 at 23:28:48
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 What kind of foil did you use and did you use the same layout as for the round wire (double runs in some places)?

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 03:29:14
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016



In answer to your question the size of the QR is as follows:

210 Yards MG1.7i MID/BASS foil 0.06 x 0.005.

It was not possible to do double runs. The photo will reveal why. Its simply a case of dimensions.

The result is that each panel measure 4.1 ohms and are linked in series to give just over 8 ohms.

Result: amazing.

And yes I heard the comparison between a standard repair and this type. No comparison.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 04:15:14
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016



Apologies for the shot not being the right way round.

If you look carefully I have sourced a pair of V2 ribbons. They are in place ready to be hooked up and part of an active system.

Wooden frames and metal stands built and designed by Peter Keenan here in Australia. Has done an amazing job I think.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 04:54:20
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 "210 Yards MG1.7i MID/BASS foil 0.06 x 0.005.
It was not possible to do double runs. The photo will reveal why. Its simply a case of dimensions.

The result is that each panel measure 4.1 ohms and are linked in series to give just over 8 ohms."


Is that really correct? We are still talking about I-D drivers? Each driver use have 27 rows of magnets, that makes it 26 runs of wires about 1.43 m each = 37.2 m + some additional cm for connections, let us say 37.5 m.

If you really used all the 192 m for the four drivers, 48 m on each driver, you must have double runs somewhere.


What kind of Magnepan is that picture showing? It is not an I-D...


Did some more calcutlations. The bass wire of the Magnepan 3.7/3.7i, is 1.905x0.127 mm. It would give about 4 ohm on each I-D bass driver. No wonder you had a differnt sound compared to the original round wire, you have doubled the current density in the magnet gap!

That also means you have doubled the mass of the wiring. You are not only comparing the round vs. foil conductors...

In theory the change of the wiring would cause:

increased efficiency
lowered cut off frequency, operating at a lower spectrum
the need for a separate midrange driver increases
less midrange transparency

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 06:42:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That is very cool looking reframing project.

How do you allocate the freq between the drivers? do use 1st order for the ribbon as well?

Hopefully the the new flat wire is not as much of a departure from the original as Roger suspects. Can you give more details as to the difference in performance with the original?

Is it that the rewiring goes over the entire span of the driver rather than staying within the more restricted length of the original wire layout? How much of a free mylar strip do you have left to act as suspension?

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 13:32:03
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Hi Satie,

In answer to some of your questions -

If you look carefully in the photo you will notice that the ribbon is placed in the same channel that the original wire occupied. It goes along the same track so the spacing will be slightly narrower given that the the QR is wider physically. Where there were originally double runs are single runs. If you have a look at a TID bass panel it should be self evident as to why that is the case.

In terms of sonics take what I say with a grain of salt because my filter, that is my ears will be different to yours. However I can see the response thus far from colleagues of mine has been very noticeable.

It needs to be pointed out that I had the opportunity to listen to a fresh pair of rewired Tympanis and then listened to mine the following day. The response from the repairer was that I would not need a sub woofer. Now we all know that a sub has its place but what the repairer was alluding to was the fact that the bass response was jumped out at you. It was chalk and cheese. It is so much tighter, faster with a lot lot more slam. As an example I put some music on and spoke to a friend on the phone. I put the phone on speaker and played a small section where a bass element kicks in and even he could detect kick in the response. This is a terrible way of listening to music but it shows under such conditions what someone else could detect.

At the minute the system is 2 way. The true ribbon is there and will be used to make it 3 way in an active system controlled by an 8 x 8 minidsp. This means then that the existing tweeter will be the midrange. I am still learning about frequency ranges so I can't answer your question about 1st order. The repairer double the size of the inductor coil and also included a bank of capacitors totalling 34.1 uf to account for the resistance change.

Would you like me to post additional photos particularly of the ribbon layout?

Let me say this. I had an opportunity to choose between this and panels which were done in wire. I would challenge anyone to listen to my system with the QR and choose the original wire. It was a no brainer. This was an experiment by the repairer who had been the principal repairer of Maggie's in Australia for many many years. He had had it in his mind to try something like this and I guess I was the lucky recipient. I would have no issue whatsoever in leaving the panels as is without the true ribbon. If there is a suggestion that doing this should in theory result in a poorer sonic response then to my mind it doesn't translate into physical reality. Just my opinion of course.

Cheers Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 16:02:21
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Thanks Ozzie for the fine detail. Very useful. Just a day out of cataract surgery so can't give the pic any more careful attention for the time being, but I am sure others would appreciate them,

I have no trouble believing that the flat wire would provide better tighter deeper response and cleaner response because it creates a better damped diaphragm and a stiffer moving surface so is more pistonic. It is also consistent with results reported by others for 3 series speakers. So another winner for the flat wire.

For the ribbon integration I would try first skipping the DSP altogether and joining the ribbon tweeter in with a first order filter like the ET LFT 8 at somewhere between 10 and 15khz - probably easier to do at speaker level with just one series cap with the ribbon and the circuit in parallel with the wire tweeter - if your amp can handle really low impedance loads (2'ish ohms) at lowish power. Do not use a low pass on the original wire tweeter and just play it as high as it will go. That way you can maintain identical polarities on the wire tweeter and the ribbon supertweeter. I absolutely love that alignment. Also used by some Apogee models to great effect

I would be very curious to see how this compares with your DSP when you implement it.

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on September 7, 2016 at 16:22:37
RealStereo
 A Magnepan rebuild will sound better than new!

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on September 7, 2016 at 18:42:30
Boulder Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: June 23, 2008
 as I expected, you all are encouraging me. I don't understand what QR is, and since the factory will be doing the refurb., I don't have a choice. Hopefully I will get the boxes out of storage this weekend.

Thank you all for the responses.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 7, 2016 at 22:36:10
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Still, this modification is not a straight comparsion between round and flat wire!

I am not surpriced that the sound of the basses changed, a move towards a lower register as this would be normal as you increase the moving mass. The original I-D is not the very best midrange performer, that is why the IIIB with its separate midrange driver was introduced. Your modified basses are probably good up to about a few hundred Hz but not all the way up to the tweeter. The tweeter is not very suited to go that low.

I have a set of Tympani IIIA. They have an even heavier copper wiring and the magnetic structure is indentical to the I-D. They measure flat up to 4 kHz but it does not sound that way.

The mass of the bass wiring is:
I-D: 19 g
QR-modified I-D: 24 g
IIIA: 82 g


at Bolder Bob:
QR is the Magneplanar type of driver with a flat wire (foil) instead of the normal round wire. The flat wire i this case is the same as used in the 3.7/3.7i. It measures 0.075" x 0.005". If you go that path, the crossover need to be modified as well.

Satie wrote: "How much of a free mylar strip do you have left to act as suspension?"

Sure the foil conductors cover a larger area than the round wire - there will be less uncovered Mylar than can strech. The Mylar is 9" wide. The round wire covers about 0.54" of the Mylar versus the foil 1.95". I think the foil will limit the maximum bass SPL quite in bit versus round wire.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 00:51:48
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Roger,

I should have clarified that what was bought from Magnepan in TOTAL. It does not reflect the exact amount in terms of runs. If you have a closer look at the photo I provided it should be self evident that there are NO double runs and why that is the case.

Each bass panel measures 4.1 ohms. Are you doubting this?

You said:

"What kind of Magnepan is that picture showing? It is not an I-D.."

Roger the photo shows the right channel to REFRAMED Tympani 1Ds. The outside panel clearly shows the existing tweeter and to the right of that is the true ribbon which has been placed there by myself. Peter Keenan who made the wooden frames also made a pair for David who is a friend of Andyr's and I can assure you that Andy will testify that this photo reflects the same outcome, that is Tympani 1Ds which have had their drivers removed from the existing frame and then placed on Tasmanian Oak wooden frames.

You said:

In theory the change of the wiring would cause:

increased efficiency
lowered cut off frequency, operating at a lower spectrum
the need for a separate midrange driver increases
less midrange transparency

Increased efficiency yes. I am getting SIGNIFICANT bass response compared to standard wiring. That was self evident to myself, the repairer and many other others who have listened.
I disagree with less midrange transparency and very much so at that.

Cheers Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 01:04:25
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Roger,

You said:

"Still, this modification is not a straight comparsion between round and flat wire!"

I dont know what you mean by this. We had an established reference point to make a comparison against.

Let me explain a little. The repairer is a chap who has been the principal repairer of Magnepans here in Australia for a very long time. He is formerly in retirement but greatly assists the new repairer. He has a pair of Tympani 1Ds himself. Both his panels and mine were repaired in FULL - that is they were completely rewired - tweeter panels as well which is something that Magnepan do NOT do. Magnepan do NOT rewire the tweeter panel. They simply replace it. The bass panels they will rewire.

Upon completion I had an opportunity to listen to both sets of speakers. It was a no brainer. Without going into too much detail but the repairer wanted to keep my speakers with the QR. He didnt. I have no hesitation in saying that they are a step above the intrinsic set up. And on a complete level. So to my mind it is a fair comparison. Its comparing one set up with another to determine efficacy. I did not was not compelled to choose one over the other. It was completely my choice. I chose the QR variant. If you havent listened to 1Ds with this modification then you are speculating as to what you may think the result will be. I would urge anyone out there to undertake this type mod and then see for yourself.

Yesterday I went into a noted hifi specialist store and listened to a pair of $40k B&W speakers to get an idea of where my speakers are at. I left feeling very satisfied with what I have. I understand the principal of confirmation bias and I get that we are all attached to our speakers on some level but I know I have a good set of speakers. I get what it means to be a maggie owner.

Please note that I also have a pair of MMGs, MGMC1s and IIIAs. Does that get me in the club :)

Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 01:06:35
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016



Another photo

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 01:07:48
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016



And another

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 01:12:25
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016



Left channel. As you can see the true ribbon on the very outer edge with the existing tweeter.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 03:02:49
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Ozzie: "Please note that I also have a pair of MMGs, MGMC1s and IIIAs. Does that get me in the club"

Yes! I have only three sets... Tympani IIIA (modified, in storage), Tympani IVa (modified, in storage) and MG-3.6 (biamp via an active crossover).

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 09:56:13
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Well, I think you have quite a heroic bracing effort. The driver frames are supported by steel slats from the back? And the wood is backed by steel beams and that goes into the back struts and big feet. That may have more to do with the increased performance than the QR - which Roger is right to question regarding resolution into the midrange/ However, when you get the DSP running you can compensate by lowering the XO to the md/tweet and use a steep slope.

You are far more into the club than I am. The T IV are my first and only maggies, I just went for what I wanted when I could afford to and had the space. But my mids are not maggie mids so I am standing with one foot out of the club, though the BG Neo8 are planar .and in a line source fitting into the midrange slot on the TIV

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 13:25:28
Desafinado
Audiophile

Posts: 183
Location: Alberta
Joined: March 10, 2013
 Great looking set of Tympani!!

What is the black material at the ends of the foil runs? It almost looks like tar.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 13:52:54
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Satie,

You can attribute whatever increases in performance to the designer Peter Keenan who worked on both the wooden frames AND the metal stands. What I like about the stands is that there is no welding. It's all bolted together. If you want to make the stands wider for whatever reason to accommodate bigger Maggie's then you simply get a longer cross brace. That's it. The drivers are fixed directly onto the wooden frames. The metal uprights then fix to the wooden frames. It is extremely solid in design. The length of the stands at the base is only 450 mm. They can easily go down to 350 mm in my opinion. I can position a 100mm masking tape at the back of the base to tilt the entire system forward and the speaker holds down. No issue.

My intention was to go even further than this. I am hoping to rewire the existing tweeter, again in QR with foil from what you would find on the 20.7 mid. That was supposed to happen but ideological differences crept in. I will keep everyone posted as to whether this takes place or not. As I understand it there were no changes to 1st order frequencies.

Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 19:16:01
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I think you get more clarity in the mids rather than transparency the stiffer and better damped mylar should produce less self noise humming along with the intended signal. If you got close to the same wire mass as in the OEM then you may have better transparency too. The proof is in the listening. whatever else may have gone on, the change was obviously for the better on balance and by quite a margin according to you and others who heard it.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 23:39:44
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Ozzie wrote: "My intention was to go even further than this. I am hoping to rewire the existing tweeter, again in QR with foil from what you would find on the 20.7 mid."

The foil used in the mids of the 20.7 is too wide (0.0005"x0.1") to be a direct replacement for the round wire in the Tympani I-D tweeters. In your case with a ribbon tweeter, it might be a step in the right direction as, in theory, it shifts the original tweeter into a slightly lower register (8 ohm=Tympani I-C and Tympani IIIA). I am using that foil in my T-IVa mids. You could also think about the use of thinner Mylar for your tweeter rebuild.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 8, 2016 at 23:59:20
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Roger,

You are correct in the sizing. You are however not correct that it is too wide. It can be done and was done. The only issue was that working with it was problematic.- it kept breaking. The only reason why the job wasnt completed was due to circumstances that I don't really want to get into at this stage. To be fair we didn't get to the point to be able to test for efficacy.

You are quite correct about Mylar thickness. We were heading down that route but the repairer was short on Mylar. One of the channels had to have the mylar replaced due to damage. Magnepan do NOT provide Mylar the customers for purchase. It would have meant sourcing it from elsewhere which we could have. However, again and frustratingly so, ego got in the way and the work didn't go in the direction I had hoped for. But yes the repairer did comment that thinner Mylar would have been a good direction to head into. At the time he didn't want to create a disparity between the two. It's also a pain in the ass to replace. Magnepan won't repair tweeter panels on the 1Ds. They replace them. In fact they strongly advise you even attempting to remove the driver. I did. Luckily I had no issues. It's all about getting the correct tensioning of the Mylar which without proper setup is not easy. Luckily the repairer was willing to have a go and it worked.

I would have still liked to have at least tried t see what the result would have been like. But at no stage did the repairer think that size of the ribbon would be prohibitive. It was worth a shot and still so.

Cheers Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 9, 2016 at 02:49:53
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Roger,

I just want to reiterate that I was not in a position to confirm either way whether that foil at that dimension was not only a good physical fit but translated into good music. I am hoping that in the next couple of months I can come back and report on this.

I believe the black stuff at the top of the panels is certainly NOT tar but another type of glue to prevent delamination. I will try and get this information for you all. It feels quite "rubbery". Its something that the repairer has been using for a while to great effect. It is not standard to the repair.

Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 9, 2016 at 03:01:56
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Well, it is not too wide to use but it will give a different impedance /resistance. The I-D tweeter is originally about 4.8 Ohm. With the smallest size foil Magnepan can offer, you will have about 7.4 Ohm, you loose about 2 dB and the mass is higher. Yes, this foil easily breaks but it is still doable. My T-IVa uses more of this than any tweeter.

I have been workning on my Tympani IIIA tweeters. Replacing the Mylar with a thinner one, cutting down the width of the driver in order to place it closer to the midrange driver etc. The driver is 20 cm wide but the diaphragm is just 6 cm. I ended with 10 cm wide drivers. I still did not like the very closed sheet metal in front of the driver. There is just about 11% of open area.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 11, 2016 at 19:39:53
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Roger,

That figure of 7.4 ohms that you state - is that something that you have measured yourself using that specified foil size for the T1D tweeter?

Cheers Ozzie

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 11, 2016 at 23:11:23
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I have that foil on my Tympani IVa mids. It has the same cross sectional area as a round wire with AWG 32, 0.032 mm2, or 0.85 Ohm/m. In the Tympani tweeter there is 8.8 m, about 7.5 Ohm in total. That is what the earlier tweeters, before the I-D had.

30 years ago, that is before Magnepan started to use foil conductors, I cut 10 m long strips of foil, 1.5x0.018 mm. Wanted to use it for modifying my Tympani tweeters. Also had 6µm Mylar. Never finished the project as I wanted a more open area in front of the diaphragm.

 

RE: Absolutely! ..., posted on September 12, 2016 at 23:07:28
ghost4man@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Hi Roger,

Thanks for that. Okay you have convinced me that I should pursue this further and perhaps do the relaying on the existing tweeter with the foil. Bear in mind that with the addition of the version 2 true ribbon the old tweeter would be my new mid range.

cheers Ozzie

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on October 17, 2016 at 18:18:04
Boulder Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: June 23, 2008
 they have been returned and I expect they will be back in my room in about 8 weeks

I will report back

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on October 17, 2016 at 21:34:17
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Good deal. I am sure they will sound better than you remember them.
Just remember to let them break in and open up and fill out the bottom before you make a judgement.

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 19, 2017 at 07:16:49
Boulder Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: June 23, 2008




the guitars all have mutes on the strings to prevent them from ringing and the piano soft pedal stays on for listening


I got the Tymps back just before Christmas. Magnepan charged me $2227 for the complete rebuild, including $82 for new cartons+pallet. I shipped them out in my old boxes via FedEx Ground (I have an account) and it was quite reasonable, $132 going there and $163 coming back. When I first hooked them up one of the tweeters was not working. It turned out to be a bad connection on one of the jumpers on the back panel. I had to use Deoxit on the jumper to get it to work. I'm surprised Magnepan didn't test the speakers before shipping. Should I pull off the back nameplate panels and tension and/or clean those connectors?

I think they are now broken in.

I am moving them around my room trying to get the "magic" and I am not there and I'm getting a little discouraged. I have attached a sketch of my room and am asking for guidance.

I have varied dimension "A" from 36" to 42" in 2" increments, varying the angle of the tweeter panel in each position. Dimension "B" right now is 35" on the left and 34" on the right. Is it important for this to be the same om both sides? Is it better to get this "B" dimension smaller?

I am trying different listening positions. Is there any guide to establishing a relationship between dimension "D" and dimension "C"?

Should I try bringing them "way out" into the room? Should I try cross fired tweeters?

I am also having some issues with the vertical angle of the speakers. One side is not as "vertical" as the other. I have placed wedges under the feet, on the front of the speaker, to help this. Should I aim to get them perfectly plumb? I remember on my SMGa's this vertical angle had two positions.

Will biamping and/or more power help deliver the "magic"? I am using my 200 watt per channel (into 8 ohms) Threshold Stasis 2. I do have 2 PSE power amps available. I was hoping to enjoy these speakers without biamping, but I am willing to try. I could also try one PSE amp, full range per channel, in bridged mode - might this be worth the effort?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 26, 2017 at 23:25:36
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 power for a biamp system depends on 2 main things.
1. Amp Gain
2. Division of power by Crossover

The 50:50 point is about 350hz. This would mean that In General you run identical amps top and bottom if you expect them to run 'out of steam' at about the same loudness.
With a crossover at or about 350hz, the lower powered amp will be the limit if different amps are used.

As for Crossover? Investigate MiniDSP. They are modestly priced, completely computer programable and easily modified using your confuser and the 10$ software package.

You can get 2in / 4 out called a '2x4' and even the 'HD' version which is some kind of improvement.
The 2x8 would be good for 3-way TRIamped systems and a SUB.
All will do 6db per octave to 48db per octave and More.

Most of the MiniDSP products will feature various time delay (time align drivers!) and even multiple Parametric EQ which are available on Each input and Output. If a driver is too loud, you can 'shelve' it down.
And finally? For the REAL overachiever, you can impliment FIR filters which have NO phase shift thru the passband.


Wander around the MiniDSP site.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 08:47:40
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The T-1D is crossed over at 1khz so in biamping you need 1/4 to 1/2 the power given to the bass panels.

The design is built around a 1st order crossover so going to a mini DSP requires a redesign of the speaker's operation departing far from the crossover design for the speaker. Otherwise, there is only room correction functionality to add, which is very useful if your room is difficult.

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 09:08:54
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 QR stands for "quasi ribbon." The earlier Magnepan models used round wire aluminum voice coils. With the .7 models, Magnepan changed from round wire to a flat ribbon and those are called quasi-ribbon drivers -- "quasi" ribbon because the ribbon is still on the Mylar backing rather than hanging free between two magnets as in a true ribbon driver. The flat conductors cover more of the diaphragm area and sounds a bit better than the round wire did. Some guys here have replaced round wire with flat when rebuilding their old Maggies -- Magnepan will sell you the parts. However, results aren't guaranteed -- when you depart from the original as you could be changing compliance, impedance might not be quite the same, etc. So it's something of an experiment.

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 11:30:24
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 What's so difficult about a simple electrical duplication of the crossover using DSP?
Mini can do 6db thru 48db per octave and has very flexible Parametric features.

And not that it matters, but I make the power distribution maybe 60:40 for Low/High.

If
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 14:30:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The question is what is the benefit vs. the cost in time, funds and a digital processing stage when compared to a PLLXO, which is easily and cheaply implemented with no learning curve and fewer components. The fact that you can ignore all the flexible possibilities in the mini DSP is not a selling point, if there is no interest in applying what is unique to DSP - i.e. room correction..

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 15:34:09
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I don't know how it can easily be done in Analogue, but one additional feature of the 'mini' product line is that some of them, like the 2x4HD have access to FIR filters.
This filter has NO phase shift thru the passband. Maybe? Maybe Not? for Maggies?

One other thing is that doing an all-analogue crossover is that you need to know what you want when you construct it. Changes? I don't know how easy they'd be.
You also have some Run-Length limits with the PLLXO which may or may not apply. My system, for example, could easily live within those limits. Total run from pre to speaker is 8 feet on the longest side. A 2-way PLLXO should be easily constructed in a Altoids Tin.

Time delays are another thing in favor of the DSP approach. And if your room is 'boomy' at some frequency, you can use one of the PEQ poles to 'notch' it out.

As far as time? I don't know. Same time invovled for cracking into the speaker and modifying for direct-2-amp hookup. Time must be spent fabricating the PLLXO and desgning for Minimum run length due to very low capacitance values typically used. Balance that aginst the time spent doing the mini's initial setup. Install would be a wash, being mainly running cables and the power for the Mini's WallWart.

I would say to START with a duplicate of the 'As-Issued' crossover. For my 1.6s? The crossover is at 600hz so the 2 knee frequencies are slightly above and below that value. Woofer gets a 12db/oct cut and the tweeter section gets 6db/oct. The inductor is 0.4ohms which is about 10% of the bass end resistance, so removing it MIGHT make the low end run a little 'hot'. Subtract 1 or 2 db and retest.

I think the time spent might be fairly close for the simpliest implementation.
Additional time would need be spent on the 'unique to DSP' feature set.

MiniDSP DOES cost more. No question about it. I think you may be right about a few things, like the value of the additional features being fairly subjective. But for me? I think I'd enjoy experimenting with those features. Time alignment of lows and highs is a very attractive idea which is easily experimented with in the DSP world.

Room Correction is not the limit of the flexibility.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 21:00:44
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 2 or 4 pots, 4 caps, 2 resistors. 1/2 -1 hour of work depending on how nice you want it, A bit of calculation on a spreadsheet or calculator. Can be executed for really little $, depending on the parts quality you choose.

The DSP software requires a day for the basics, costs more and has a great variety of features.

The Tympani series can be time aligned physically, And the equidistant setup with symmetrical crossovers such as the 1st order XO of the T1D will provide time alignment. For the non- symmetrical crossovers you can choose placements to complement the delay in the crossover.

 

RE: Should I get my Tympani I-Ds rebuilt?, posted on February 27, 2017 at 21:38:32
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 MiniDSP plug in costs 10$.

Yes, time delay can be done in the 'physical' domain with setup.

Maggies are unique in that a single panel / frame is the wavefront origin. Unlike multi-driver designs where each driver represents its own plane.

Now? If for some reason you want FIR filters? Try that in a pure analogue topology.
Too much is never enough

 

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