big stats

RE: big stats, posted on August 4, 2016 at 11:04:38
YRY Audiophile Posts: 491 Location: So. California Joined: April 4, 2002	Since you don't comment on the sound, I'm assuming you haven't heard them. They are certainly intriguing when you go to the Mitec website. My guess is that they weigh a ton, cost a boatload, and could deliver incredible performance in the sweetspot if the design concepts came together properly.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 4, 2016 at 19:44:24

Satie
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Looked up their site and indeed it is impressive. Their flagship $80k triptych speaker called the Fokus3 is interesting

http://www.mitec-electrostats.de/en/mitec_en/ceramic

Review in German

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 5, 2016 at 11:53:17
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9628 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	That's interesting. They seem, from the pics, to be in a concave alignment. I wonder why they went with that instead of the usual convex setup? The sweet spot must really be something.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 6, 2016 at 04:47:10

Satie
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Can't be certain that it is concave. My German is way too rudimentary for the nuance of the technical details in the review. The pics imply that it is slightly concave, but it could be a lens issue.

I would understand the concave alignment since I use that to get the centers of the cylindrical waveforms from each of the planar drivers to be time aligned so that first arrivals are identical in arrival time. That retains the short transients coordinated in arrival from all the drivers. In a way it is a vandersteen turned on its side.

The only thing here is that these ESL drivers might actually have a more planar wave launch. Someone needs to take a polar radiation plot to determine the pattern .

I would guess that since the designer had studied the Accoustats closely and copied their cell and wire stator structure that the center segment of the center driver - or one vertical segment at one of the ends has the top frequencies to itself.

The German HiFi mag had reviewed other models. Wish one of our German speakers would run it through the auto translate and edit into the original intent and meaning.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 6, 2016 at 14:41:29

Sondek
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The time alignment idea makes some sense. Being a convert from Vandys to Acoustats, I immediately understand your comparison. I do wonder though if that approach wouldn't heighten that "head in a vice" description of the soundstage some Acoustat critics complain about? I've never found it a problem as I tend to sit in one place while I'm listening to music and not move my head all over the place like a bad Stevie Wonder impression. But the approach they've take would seemingly make placement/toe/etc. even more problematic to imaging. Although, as I said, once you nail it, the sweet spot must be to die for.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 04:37:25

Satie
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The head in a vice problem is real for my setup as well, but only with particular very high freq crossover points to the tweeter. It is a bit less of a problem at high freq crossover if you take the midrange low pass out so that the mids are at 0 absolute phase at the XO region and you just have a low order HP on the tweeter. The ET LFT8 and some of the Apogees do that. accoustat do the reverse and low pass the other drivers that don't carry the HF signal while keeping the HF driver with no further phase complications other than those induced by the transformer.

The results are spectacular for imaging, but you do need to place your head in the right spot to have it all come together. I had heard a Beveridge set and that was surreal in that you were in the performance space with your eyes closed but in the demo room with them open. But that spoiled me and that is my criterion for imaging. So I did not really have a sense of how well I managed to do with my setup relative to other systems till a well respected acoustic engineer came over for a brief listen and said it was "the first time I heard real imaging". So that was disappointing since it meant the potential for doing better was not wide open and it was as far as I would be able to go without an actual Beveridge ESL. The beveridge is very dynamically constrained for my kind of listening.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 06:45:04
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9628 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	Maybe a pair of servo-charge Acoustats then if Beveridge won't quite cut the mustard for you? I can confidently say that I've never felt dynamically constrained with mine, and imaging is down right spooky.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 09:29:30

Satie
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That is an interesting proposition. I did very much enjoy my 2 weeks with a 2+2 TNT amp and a subwoofer. But I did clip the amp ,bottom the speaker and drove the sub to distortion when no one else was around. So I am likely playing much harder than you are used to. My SPL meter typically goes to over 100db on solo piano on fast response c weighed peak hold. On average spl on loud passages with the meter on slow response c weighting average (rather than peak) I play in the low 90s.

Have you monitored your SPL levels in playback?

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 10:02:35

Sondek
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Satie, not sure how accurate the app for my phone is at measuring db, but 95 to 105, or more, is not a problem. In fact, night before last I was cranking Junior Brown at peaks touching on 98 db before my daughter burst into the room demanding that I "turn that shit down". I'm pretty sure they'll play way louder than 105, it's just that I can't stand to listen that loud. The loudest peak I ever measured on them was 108. They seem to be completely unfazed at those levels too. The panels have been measured down to 28 hz on the low down without use of a sub. The full-range operation make for unrivaled coherency of sound. If you ever find yourself in the DFW area you're welcome to drop by for a listen.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 10:29:08

Roger Gustavsson
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Satie wrote:
"Can't be certain that it is concave. My German is way too rudimentary for the nuance of the technical details in the review. The pics imply that it is slightly concave, but it could be a lens issue."

It is concave. According to the reviewer, the sweetspot is not that critical. I do not believe him… Neither the statement that there is no problem with limited SPL, not even in the bass down to 30 Hz. I find the radiating area is too small for that, it is about 75x100 cm or equal to the Tympani IVa. Just remember, an electrostatic cannot drive its diaphragm into the its electrodes and the size of the modules will also limit the excursion of the plastic film too. Still, they can probably deliver sweet sound but maybe with not for headbangers.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 12:28:16
Satie Audiophile Posts: 5426 Joined: July 6, 2002	So long as it can deliver Brunhilda and the drama at realistic levels... I am not expecting that to provide the big Soundlab experience. But it did look very impressive and the materials choices were interesting.

RE:REALLY big stats, posted on August 8, 2016 at 12:41:48

Satie
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That is very impressive even for a regular speaker, not to speak of a hybrid ESL. Well beyond what I would have expected.

My peak measurement was 126 db which was by accident while transitioning from doing measurements for XO settings to playing music. Both bass panels and midrange bottomed out and Sarah Vaughn was singing with violins stuck in her mouth.

My typical measurements on really large scale orchestra get peak readings at the 105-115 db level Things like Stravinsky Ballets Mahler and Liszt and Tchaikovsky tone poems. Oddly, I don't get those transient peaks from CD when played at the same average SPL. peaks on CD are apparently either cut off or compressed. When played on CD with the same 92 db average reading in the loud passages I don't get peaks in excess of 105db.

concave, posted on August 8, 2016 at 14:14:30
slapshot Audiophile Posts: 2248 Joined: January 9, 2006	Yes, the article talks about the "concave transducer assembly"

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