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Newport Planar & Dipole News 1

32.212.76.154

Posted on June 6, 2016 at 15:35:09
josh358
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Joined: February 9, 2010
[EDIT -- Since I wrote this, I've learned that I managed to miss two planar rooms -- Roger Sanders' and Roger Modjeski's.]

There were only two full range planar manufacturers exhibiting, Analysis and Magnepan: King Sound had a room, but only to show their eletrostatic headphones (which sounded nice, but I can't say more than that since they were playing pop recordings that didn't tell me very much). However, there was an interesting planar midrange driver and a number of point source dynamic dipoles, so I think I'll cover those as well.

I went from bottom to top, so the first planar room was Magenpan's on the second floor. Here I am with Wendell (center) and his lovely wife Galina, who was doing the ticketing for the show:



Magnepan is doing something unconventional this year -- showing a system that he doesn't expect to sell. The idea is for dealers to do something fun and interesting that will bring customers into their stores -- in this case, to demonstrate the potential of three-channel audio at its best, using the new Bryston-Magnepan processor, a five-channel box that has been tuned to work optimally with three full-range Maggies. Wendell has tried the system with speakers as large as the 20.7's, but for purposes of the demonstration, he used three MMG's (apologies for the exposure, but the front of the room was intentionally darkened so I had to use the flash on my phone):



Bottom line: the improvement in imaging is spectacular. We're used to thinking of three channel as improving the off-axis imaging -- useful in a theater, but not so much for a single listener. Magnepan's solution does have the usual three channel improvement in off-axis imaging, but its main purpose is to create a holographic image for the listener in the sweet spot. I tried moving my head around and found that the effect did suffer if I moved it too far out of the central listening position. but location wasn't tweaky, in the sense that I had to make a conscious effort and move my head unnaturally far off axis to do that. So I'd say it's suited to comfortable single-person listening.

I found that the image takes on a solidity and palpability that one just doesn't hear from the phantom image of a two-channel system, which is always slightly ethereal. And it has it without the compromises that are inevitably present when smaller or suboptimally-placed speakers are used for the center, as in the typical home theater setup. At its best, the sound was spectacularly holographic, as in reach out and touch it solid. At its less than best, I could hear the image becoming slightly phantomy in the region between the center and sides -- but still much less so than in a two-channel setup.

The sound also had the tonal rightness of three chennel -- interference between the left and right speakers creates in a two channel setup a peak and dip of several dB in the midrange region.

The MMGs were also punching way above their class, filling a big room with orchestral music with very little compression. But of course, there were three of them.

As I said, Magnepan doesn't expect to sell the system to consumers -- at $9000 for the processor, it's a demonstration tool for dealers. However, it will be available as a special order item for people who want it, and Wendell told me that a customer wno heard it had already ordered one for his 20.7's. He also said that, unfortunately, other processors don't perform the magic of the Bryston.

More later, plane is landing and I'm afraid that if I don't post this now it will be eaten . . .

EDIT -- Rather than making new threads I've continued this in some subthreads below.

 

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RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 6, 2016 at 16:45:42
Three full range Maggies? I must be missing something, what's the center Maggie? It can't be one taken from an additional pair, which IAE is asymmetrical.

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 6, 2016 at 17:21:06
It can't be? That looks exactly like what it is. In fact, you can see the tweeter on the right hand side. Yes, not a completely symmetrical arrangement, but that doesn't invalidate its use....in my opinion.
Many folks two-channel stereo setups are not symmetrical either because of room placement asymmetry.

Dave.

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 6, 2016 at 18:01:03
BDP24
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When I first started reading Audio, High Fidelity, and Stereo Review in the late 1960's, I remember the common use of a center mono speaker in the early days of stereo being mentioned, though by that time it was passe'. I've never heard it, but it seems like a good idea to me.

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 6, 2016 at 18:36:49
josh358
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Yes, in fact at the show a friend told me that he'd heard some of the early Bell Labs three-channel recordings from the 30's and the imaging was amazing! (The other aspects of the sound quality weren't up to modern standards, of course.) Many early stereo recordings were made in three-channel stereo. The reason we ended up with two is that that's all you can fit in the groove of an LP

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 6, 2016 at 18:46:37
josh358
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Yes, it's a third off-the-shelf MMG. I'd actually asked Wendell about that a while back, and he said that in practice, a left or a right work fine as a center channel speaker.

It makes sense to me that it would: consider that if you're listening on axis, you're hearing the summed output of the woofer and tweeter, each in time. So if you center the acoustical axis laterally and point it towards your nose, the center speaker should be amplitude and time aligned with the left and right speakers, and you'll be in the center channel crossover's sweet spot as well.

 

I wonder?, posted on June 7, 2016 at 07:49:10
RickeyM
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" He also said that, unfortunately, other processors don't perform the magic of the Bryston."

I wonder, a 5.1 channel SACD mixed down to just the front 3 channels. How close to the "effect" would this come?

 

RE: I wonder?, posted on June 7, 2016 at 07:57:02
josh358
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That's an interesting question. It would certainly give you great 3 channel stereo of the conventional kind, but whether it would be optimized for dipoles I don't know.

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 7, 2016 at 09:26:12
Many thanks to the inmates who so kindly responded to my inquiry.
Norman

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 7, 2016 at 10:46:18
Satie
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I wonder if we should ask Jim Fosgate how the "magic" bit works and see if he has a simpler idea of how to execute the processing for 3 channels of dipoles.

 

You missed out Music Reference, posted on June 7, 2016 at 14:08:42
Posts: 2760
Location: Orange Co., Ca
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Roger Modjeski was showing his 'new' ESL speakers. I put new in inverted commas because he said the demo pair was ten years old but he is only now producing them for sale. He gave a 30 min lecture on ESL design on Saturday evening and his approach to bass reproduction - he uses small sealed sub-woofers sharply crossed-over at 100Hz-ish (can't remember for sure). The subs have 8" drivers working below resonance in acoustic suspension mode. He prefers several small subs distributed in the room as the best match for panels. The ESL panels are $10k a pair and are line sources designed not to beam.

I was wandering the halls at close of show on Sunday and made it in to the last Magneplanar demo. I didn't get to sit in the hot seat because that was reserved for Jonathon Valin & Julie Mullins of TAS. The sound was very nice but I didn't hear any particular imaging magic. Wendell said that the set-up only works for one hot-seat, which Julie confirmed on the way out. Wendell also said that the three speaker approach is not a commercial venture, it's just a gimmic he's put together for dealers to stimulate interest in maggies, not to sell them in three's. He wouldn't say how the processing was done but James Bongiorno was a proponent of three channels using a Blumlien shuffler approach to create sum and difference channels (see link)

Regards
13DoW

 

RE: Newport Planar & Dipole News 1, posted on June 7, 2016 at 14:21:29
josh358
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Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
All I know is that the settings were developed by Wendell after several years of experimentation, and that they don't involve time delay. Since the system is primarily intended for use by dealers and few audiophiles have multichannel systems, I don't think there's a commercial reason for Magnepan or Bryston to develop a less expensive version, but Gabriel Sakakeeny, the conductor who developed the system that uses Maggies to increase the apparent size of a string section, came up with what I think is a great idea -- a VST plug in that would make the algorithm economical for anyone with computer audio.

 

RE: You missed out Music Reference, posted on June 7, 2016 at 14:55:49
josh358
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Posts: 12327
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Damn, I'm sorry I missed that. I also missed Roger Sanders' room, to my dismay.

By the way, we were literally feet from one another without knowing it since I was in the room next door when he showed the system to Jon Valln and Julie Mullins. I did have a chance on Friday to listen from the sweet spot and can confirm that the magic collapses when you leave the central position. I didn't find head position critical, in that it didn't require head in a vice listening -- I had to consciously lean over to lose the holographic effect. So it's one person listening for full effect, but Wendell told me that he doesn't expect it to be a problem in practice because will be showing the system to individual customers.

AFAIK, all two-three channel systems work basically the same way, but the magic is in the details -- the matrix, the logic, etc.

 

Roger Sanders and other dipole stuff., posted on June 7, 2016 at 15:55:36
Posts: 2760
Location: Orange Co., Ca
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I forgot to mention Sanders but I did visit. The demo was the same as it has always been at the Newport Show, same three chairs arranged in line-astern fashion and the same music played from a Tascam digital recorder. When I mentioned that the room was always the same but always sounded good I was told there was a difference this year that the digital cross-over now incorporates room correction.

As an ESL-57 owner I've been contemplating the best way to augment bass so I was interested at the different approaches on show. The Sanders Sound transmission line bass sounded very good but I wasn't so impressed with that from the small sealed Music Reference subs. Voxativ had dipole bass units to reinforce their speakers (looked like the Linkwitz Phoenix woofer design) that sounded OK. In general I did like the bass from the moving coil dipole speakers (eg. Kyron & Emerald Physics). There was a new company with moving coil dipoles from Germany (I think, and I can't remember their name and could not even find them for a second visit). The former are equalized with DSP the latter is passive but does not have woofer equalization. The designer was adamant that he was able to get around the dipole bass cancellation problem by careful drive unit selection so that the rear wave launches straight back and does not leak around to cancel the front wave. The bass wasn't super strong but did sound good.

Talking of DSP correction, I was disappointed with the DEQX demonstration.
I was hoping to hear the improvement on real speakers but they showed a custom set-up. The idea was to show that you could 'simply' put three good drivers in a box and let the DSP create optimal cross-overs (in a tri-amped system). But, you could not do a correction-on vs. correction-off comparison. For that they had a pair of public address horns from a bus station and demo'ed correction-on vs correction-off for that - very impressive but I'd rather hear how much a top system can be improved.

Regards
13doW

 

RE: Roger Sanders and other dipole stuff., posted on June 7, 2016 at 16:04:04
josh358
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Joined: February 9, 2010
Yes, I had the same problem with the DEQX room. Worse, actually, since they were having trouble firing up the system so I basically only heard the horn demo. But Alan Langford did give me some very useful information about how to set up the DEQX with Maggies, including custom builds. It turns out they have curves for many models. Otherwise, he recommends measuring them out of doors (or in a large space like a gymnasium) at 3 meters.

 

Anybody check out Analysis Audio?, posted on June 7, 2016 at 19:41:51
TitaniumTroy
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Anybody have the time to check out Analysis Audio, if so how did they sound?

 

RE: Roger Sanders and other dipole stuff., posted on June 7, 2016 at 21:41:06
BDP24
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Duke, were the dipoles by Gradient? They are the people who offered the dipole sub for the Quad 63 in the 80's and 90's. Gradient is actually located in Finland, and I believe still offer dipole subs.

Speaking of dipole subs and Quads, the sub you should become aware of is a joint offering by GR Research and Rythmik Audio, developed by those company's Danny Richie and Brian Ding. It consists of a pair (or trio) of 12" Servo-Feedback controlled paper coned woofers installed in opposing directions in a W- or H-frame, powered and controlled by the Rythmik Servo-Feedback 370w plate amp. To counter-act the dipole cancellation, Brian installs a 6dB/octave shelving circuit in the amp, which enables response to below 20Hz at robust SPL.

The sub is offered only as a kit (priced at around $1500/pr shipped for the 2-woofer version), comprised of two amps and either four (standard) or six (at extra cost) woofers, the frame being the responsibility of the user. Several GR Research AudioCircle Forum contributors offer H-frame flat packs (very easy to assemble), one CNC cut from 1.5" thick MDF! There is a lot of information about the sub available on that forum.

 

RE: Anybody check out Analysis Audio?, posted on June 8, 2016 at 05:43:38
josh358
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I did -- I'll post my impressions and what I learned later today.

 

RE: Anybody check out Analysis Audio?, posted on June 8, 2016 at 14:22:41
DrChaos
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I did.

It sounded good, but not $22K good. As always show conditions are poor, and music selection is often poor so a true test isn't always possible. I think it had better low bass than my MG 3.6, but I felt the maggies might have better midrange.

I thought the Sanders 10D---biamp with electronic crossover---was the best sound I heard over all rooms.

Partly because they had diversified large orchestral music which is, in my opinion, a more stringent test, but it was just overall great.
Other than the narrowish sweet spot---it was wonderful, clear and true in tone.

I didn't hear many rooms of course, but my top three independent of price were MBL 101, the Sanders, and a big surprise to me, the PTE Phoenix SG internally self-powered/biamped speakers.

 

RE: Anybody check out Analysis Audio?, posted on June 8, 2016 at 15:04:06
BDP24
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Location: Vancouver, Washington
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I wasn't able to attend this year, but I did in 2015, and really liked the Sanders ESL's---best sound I heard at the show. The Vandersteen/ARC room (by Santa Monica retailer Optimal Enchantment) was "eh", as was Magnepan's. Okay, but not great. The other good system I heard was the EAR/Townshend/Marten---really, really good. It should have been---the Marten speakers (Coltrane model) retail for a hundred grand!

 

RE: Roger Sanders and other dipole stuff., posted on June 8, 2016 at 16:58:45
airheadair
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Any comments on how the Music Reference ESL"s sounded?

 

More show stuff - Analysis Audio, posted on June 8, 2016 at 17:24:56
josh358
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Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
After Magnepan, I heard the Analysis Audio room, where they were showing the Omega. Needless to say, I've long wanted to hear these!



I confess that I was disappointed by the sound when I first walked in. The music was too loud and the speakers were somewhat overdriven and suffering from ribbon glare. When I brought the level down a few dB, they became entirely different speakers -- the ribbons sighed with pleasure rather than screaming in agony and I heard the clear, uncolored, spacious, detailed sound I enjoy in planars.

Most impressive was the bass -- my notes say "magnificently tight and controlled" -- and that's by planar standards. I can't say how deep it goes since I heard only one cut, Appalachian Spring, but what I heard was as good as I've heard. Even with that, I was able to hear a subtle and familiar difference in quality between the sound of the woofers and that of the ribbons; the ribbons had slightly higher definition as one would expect.

Insofar as one can judge from a single recording, the ribbons seemed to have less air and sheen than the Maggie ribbon, which isn't surprising given the fact that they're wider and laminated. Note the pleating in the foil:



So it seems that these speakers are in the forgiving category when it comes to highs.

The guys at Anbalysis were kind enough to answer some technical questions -- the first one, naturally, being why the angled side of the trapezoid is adjacent to the ribbon rather than on the other side, Apogee style! I would have thought you'd want the flat side by the tweeter to keep the acoustical centers as close together as possible. Anyway, I never got an answer other than that it was a design decision, but I was told that the separation wasn't an issue at the low crossover frequency (650 Hz).

The crossover is 6 dB/octave, and they were surprised that I was able to hear it, given the low frequency and gentle slope -- but in all fairness, I've been listening to planars all my life and what I heard was a difference in tonal quality rather than a sharp disjunction -- more an observation than something that would bother the listener.

They conformed that the woofer does as reported use a surround, and for that reason, there's no need to bow the magnet assembly as on a Maggie. Magnets are ceramic 8 rather than neodynium, and they achieve sensitivity (3 dB higher than Maggies, according to the spec sheet) by using big ones. I asked about the choice of single-ended magnets and was told that in practice the field was linear enough so that it didn't make a difference to the sound, and that in some cases magnets on the front can affect the sound adversely.

The Omegas are their mid-priced speakers, with a suggested price of $22,0000. I asked about a three-way and was told that the Orion has separate woofer panels crossed over at 70 Hz, and that the separation provides a slight increase in definition.

 

Yet more show stuff -- NFS Audio, posted on June 8, 2016 at 18:35:46
josh358
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I took up Big Mike's invitation and joined him (Mike Alazard) and his friend Anton Dotson in the NFS audio room -- that's Not For Sale Audio. I'd read about this room before -- the two have been playing music and pouring absinthe for show goers for over 10 years -- but this was my first visit. I was greeted by a spectacular light show:





Mike and Anton, neither of whom actually have Rigelian Spotted Fever:





Around the corner, Mike was spinning disks on what turned out to be a very beautiful pair of Gunned 3.6R's and of course I had to have a listen:









Mike has a dilemma now -- he loves the sound of his modified Citation II, but it can't drive the Maggies at high level. So the system was sounding stressed on full orchestra. But when things quieted down and individual instruments played, the sound was in a few words:

Remarkable
Superb
Delicious
Luscious
Mellifluous
Astounding

And I promise you that was without the benefit of the absinthe! At one point, the ribbons were playing some triangles (or was it a xylophone?), and the sound was so ethereally liquid and perfect that the woman who was sitting next to me and I exchanged glances -- nothing had to be said.

I'm not knocking the exhibitors -- it's hard to get good sound under show conditions and many of the demo tracks were awful -- but after listening to floor after floor of let's be honest frequently terrible audio, it was wonderful to hear some of the best sound I heard at the show, the kind of sound that has kept me listening for all of these years.

I could have stayed there all day, listening and enjoying the vibes. As it was, I heard some of the best sound of the show, the kind that has magic to it.

 

RE: More show stuff - Analysis Audio, posted on June 8, 2016 at 20:24:27
Satie
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I guess it answers the question about the Analysis. They had to use a laminated ribbon in order to make it a two way with as low an XO as they could muster. A true AL ribbon at 1st order would have to be 4khz or more. Even so, that limits the speaker's max output since it strains even the laminated ribbon.I guess they should have offered a switchable XO between 500 hz for low volume and 1.2khz for high volume.

Considering the success of the Gunned 3.6 I see that they did not make the right design compromise.After all he did mod it into a 2 way. Any idea what was done with the Citation II to make it capable of playing the G 3.6 at all? I dread to think what my mod Dyna III would suffer trying to move that leaden insensitive low load.

I guess this is a better executed mod after the Varkdriver fiasco.

.

 

RE: More show stuff - Analysis Audio, posted on June 9, 2016 at 03:14:47
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
In all fairness, the sound really was too loud when I walked in the room -- not just for the speakers but for the program material. It was far from the only room in which the equipment wss overdriven -- a lot of systems were compressing or showing other signs of strain.

Anyway, I looked up some reviews of the Omega last night and what I read about output levels was conflicting -- one said that output levels were disappointing, another said that they did better at high levels than the 3.6. Some numbers would be nice, guys!

Come to think of it, I think I'll take my little measurement mic to the next show, and get some SPL readings on my phone. I'm kind of tired of the blackout on this critical spec. I'm not in general a fan of horns, but I'll say it was a pleasure to hear systems with real rather than aspirational dynamics. (The big systems, Magico and Wilson, were also comfortable at show levels, as one would expect.)

Anyway, I think I heard the Analysis under far less than ideal conditions. Given the time it takes to set up dipoles properly and the window behind them, I think it's amazing that they did as well as they did. One of the reviews I read did complain that the balance was rolled off in the highs, which jibes with my impression of the overall balance.

I'm not sure whether the crossover on the 3.6's was the same as Varkdriver's. All I know is that the system sounded great on that recording. I would have liked to hear from someone who had owned the modified 3.6 and was more familiar with their sound. I asked Mike about that, but he had bought the 3.6's used (for $550!) and sent them directly to PG so never had a chance to compare.

The Citation II really wasn't able to drive them -- it was sounding pretty ragged when the orchestra was going full blast. The luscious sound I heard was in the quieter passages. Mike has a real dilemma -- he told me that he loves the sound of the Citation and from what I heard he has every reason to -- but it just doesn't have enough power to drive the Maggies. Maybe if he biamped?

 

Even more show stuff, posted on June 9, 2016 at 05:17:52
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
Perla audio was showing the midrange from a planar magnetic speaker they plan to introduce next year -- just the driver, as the speaker isn't ready yet:





It certainly looks impressive! The voice coils are -- get this - silver. I was puzzled by this as aluminum has a higher conductivity/mass ratio but they said the silver sounds better.

The Perfect Technologies glass dynamic dipoles, besides looking impressive, had a very spacious sound:





As with the other omnidirectional dipoles I heard, I was pleased by their imaging, which might not have been the equal of the line sources but was close in a much more practical form factor, and far better than the imaging I heard from any non-dipole save perhaps the Magicos (and that was under special circumstances -- huge room, noel room treatment, and special recording). It isn't that the other speakers didn't do depth and lateral spread -- in many cases they did -- but that they didn't have the magic carpet effect of being transported into a real acoustical space with real instruments -- the images were scrambled, often vertically as well as in terms of depth.

I asked about the glass piece behind the midwoofers and was told that the drivers are mounted to it, rather than the front panel, to minimize vibration. Clever. The woofers, mounted in opposition, should also tend to cancel the vibration. Some very nice, innovative yet sound design. I thought the balance a bit bright for my taste. Otherwise, they were a pleasure to listen to.

As everyone knows by now, Parts Express is carrying the BG Neos again:









I was told that under the new arrangement, they will be the exclusive American distributor of the Neo line. Currently they're selling the Neo-3, -8. and -10, and they may be adding some other models (presumably the PDR's and perhaps the 8S?). The RD line, unfortunately, will not be offered.

At Madisound, I saw a familiar face:





I mentioned that it was a lot smaller in person than I thought it would be and was told that everybody says that. Unfortunately, they weren't demoing the complete LX-521, apparently they did that last year but as they aren't really a demo room it wasn't ideal for them. Davey's Mini DSP XO for the Linkwitz wss there as well, and if my fading memory serves me, they were showing a plate amp with a Mini DSP built in.

Unfortunately, I missed hearing DEQX on Maggies -- that was last year's demo and this year, they were showing it with a custom dynamic three way, and doing a before/after with a $20 horn which was actually really impressive as a demonstration of the technology but didn't say much about the improvement to be had with high end speakers.

Alan Langford, DEQX's general manager, was good enough to spend some time discussing their use with Maggies. He said that they already have curves for many Maggie models, so that in most cases no user measurement is necessary for the driver correction and crossover curves. (After those one time measurements are taken, a second in-room calibration is performed with parametric IIR filters). I asked him about other Maggie models or modded units, and he confirmed that they should be measured outside or in a large space like a gymnasium to eliminate reflections -- even an anechoic chamber won't suffice because they aren't anechoic at low frequencies. He also said that those measurements should be made at three meters rather than in the near field

I mentioned that I might be using a subwoofer thanks to the bass problems in my room, and Alan said that units are starting to turn up on the used market and can be had for as little as $1000. Apparently, older units of any vintage will still interface with the newer ones so they can be used in parallel. Larry, at their DEQX dealer in Denver, apparently stocks some old units and is the expert on what's available.

DEQX, like some other exhibitors at the show, was using the new Roon media player, and said that their new models can receive data streamed from it, as well as from JRiver.

I did get to here the DEQX with the Kyron planar dipoles -- it's included in the system:





At $112, this system isn't cheap, but imaging was spectacular and it looks like they'd be a great option for people who want the dipole sound and can't accommodate line sources.

Spatial Audio was demoing their open baffle titanium cone speakers:









I was glad to hear that they're doing quite well for a small manufacturer, selling 80-100 pairs a month.

 

Thanks Josh. nt, posted on June 9, 2016 at 05:42:53
..

 

RE: Even more show stuff, posted on June 9, 2016 at 08:26:34
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Do the spatials actually cover the top frequencies well with the coax compression driver? Say as well as Tannoy have managed?

Any upgrade add on back support structure to take out the bigggg hanging mass driver resonances? I know someone who sticks dowels with a thin rubber layer between the woofer and mid magnets and the box wall on the other side and seems to get cleaner sound that way in all his speakers. .

 

RE: Even more show stuff, posted on June 9, 2016 at 08:54:48
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
I confess I was disappointed by the sound I heard from the Spatial, to the point at which I didn't jot down notes on the specifics. It may just have been the program material or the setup or room, so I hope someday to hear them under better conditions, but as things were, I didn't hear the magic I was hoping to. It was hardly the only system that disappointed that way -- as at previous shows, I heard many products, including some very expensive ones, that didn't sound the way they would in a proper setup.

 

Sorry..., posted on June 9, 2016 at 14:24:18
Posts: 2760
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
..when I walked in Roger was waxing lyrical about Quad bass problems and how his approach was better that my techie side took over thinking about it and I didn't give them a good listen. But, what I hear was not bad but not memorable.

13DoW

 

RE: Roger Sanders and other dipole stuff., posted on June 9, 2016 at 15:26:31
Posts: 2760
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
Thanks for the info about the Rythmik kit. I've contemplated building the Linkwitz Phoenix dipole woofer, which is probably very similar.

The Voxativ sub unit is made by them (see link). It looks like the Linkwitz dipole except I could see that the two drive units are facing each other in the H-frame. Ideally, they should be facing the same direction so that when the cones move towards each other one cone is going forwards and the other backwards. That way any asymmetry in the cone movement cancels out.

The UK magazine Hi-Fi World ran some articles on dipole bass 20 years ago. The editor (Noel Keywood) used ESL-63s as his reference and mated them with Celestion SL6000 dipole woofer. He published his own cross-over and the magazine published a simple DIY dipole subwoofer design.

At this stage I don't know which way to go, a dipole system is appealing but in a recent thread about adding a sub-woofer to Quads, Kentaja stated his preference to let Quads run full range and just use a closed-box subwoofer to fill-in the final couple of octaves. Then there is the approach of AudioKinesis (the real Asylum Duke) of using distributed box (10" cones, vented) subs to smooth room nodes that was discussed in a recent thread in the Speaker forum (and Music Reference is taking a similar approach though with 8" cones in small sealed boxes).

Anyway, sub-woofing is not at the top of my audio priority spending list but I will check out Rythmik.

Cheers
13DoW
The Sanders Sound transmission line woofers work well

 

RE: Yet more show stuff -- NFS Audio, posted on June 9, 2016 at 18:09:37
Posts: 2760
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
I did have a nice time in the NFS room though I found the combination of the lights and the smell of alcohol distracting. I refused the hospitality to keep a clear head!
I didn't bring any music with me but after hearing enough jazz and female vocals to last until next year's show they were kind enough to find some Vivaldi for me that sounded very nice (just found a cheap used copy of that out-of-print disc). Then 'Giorgio by Moroder' by Daft Punk. Sounded great, especially for a modern pop production, though it could have been a bit louder (I didn't complain). I left refreshed.

13DoW

 

RE: Yet more show stuff -- NFS Audio, posted on June 10, 2016 at 05:14:16
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
I would gladly have accepted the hospitality -- I visited late on Sunday and had already seen all the rooms (I thought) -- but they didn't have any vodka and I'm allergic to most everything else, so kept a clear head despite myself. Too bad, the absinthe would have been fun. :-)

Don't get me started on demo music! It isn't just that I heard "Take 5" in four different rooms, it's that this stuff is next to useless for evaluating equipment. I've been reading some show reviews as they come out and saying to myself "Wow, that room was good?" If a room seemed promising and there wasn't too much traffic, I'd hang around and ask them to play something orchestral, but I know I missed some good stuff. I envy the critics who get to carry around some reference recordings -- though I don't envy them having to write all this stuff up on deadline, there's just too much to cover.

That being said, I read Jason Serinus's post last night and was interested to see that his impressions were close to mine, so I must have heard something.

 

Some other fun stuff, posted on June 12, 2016 at 08:21:55
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
I had breakfast on Saturday with Wendell, Galina, Marc Nickelson and Dennis Davis of Audio Beat, and Gabriel Sakakeeny, the conductor and audio designer who designed the OSIRES system that uses Maggies to increase the apparent size of a small orchestra:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/osires_magnepan.htm

Gabriel is currently developing a new version of his system that will be quicker to set up and dismantle, using .7's. He's found that with his system he's able to put small orchestras on a sound commercial economic footing, and is currently looking for seed capital to fund such a venture, so if any of you have a rich uncle, please let us know!

Scott Walker Audio was demonstrating some tiny bass traps from Synergistic Research -- these sit on the floor and contain 19 resonators, and they're only 9" square! They played the speakers with them in place, then removed them from the room, and the difference was palpable -- the bass went from being well-controlled and tight to booming and muddy. No idea how much they cost, but if they're as effective as they were at the show they could be a godsend to those who can't put tube traps in the living room. It's the little box in the middle:



I also heard the most convincing surround I've ever heard from a two-channel system -- from where I was sitting in the front row (not the optimal location as I learned), it seemed to wrap around my head 270 degrees. The recording was clearly processed -- HRTF, crosstalk cancellation, something along those lines -- the difference being that usually in my experience that processing isn't very effective. It may have had something to do with the size of the room, or the mysterious acoustical panels, also from Synergistic Research, that you can see on the wall.

This was actually one of my favorite rooms -- I read some complaints about too much bass and too large a room, but I thought the Magico S7's themselves sounded remarkable, with near-planar neutrality and the unstrained dynamics one expects from a large floor stander. By way of contrast, the Wilsons I heard also had plenty of dynamic reserve but were variable. In some cases sounding good (the Serina) but in others colored and dated (the highly-touted Alexx).

I have to say that I was surprised at the raves I've read about the sound at this show. It may just be that the reviewers had opportunities I usually didn't to hear cuts of their choosing. I mean, I like "Take 5," but it isn't something I'd judge equipment by and by the time you've heard it in four rooms it starts to grate. And that was far from the worst, as always at shows I heard a lot of useless demo music: what are you supposed to make of an overproduced recording in which a singer who was crooning into a microphone 3" from her mouth sounds louder than a locomotive?

In many cases I had the feeling that the system was probably fine, but that the recording made it sound like crap. I even heard rap that had been loudness wars compressed and sounded so awful I couldn't stay in the room. Not to mention all the systems that were too loud, overdriven, too bright, too dark, and worn out records. And of course they were dealing with hotel room acoustics, inadequate power, and so on. I was sitting next to Jason Serinus on the shuttle bus back to the hotel and asked him about the bright, loud sound that I'd heard in so many rooms -- he pointed out that the demonstrators are standing up and off-axis, and said that some get the hang of compensating for the difference between what they hear and what people hear from the listening seats, while others never do.

On the other hand, I was really impressed by the horns at the show -- and coming from a hornophobe like me, that's something. They've really improved. The Volti Audio Vittora, a big wooden folded horn that would have looked at home in 1955, sounded almost great. It imaged well, which many horns don't do, and had the usual horn rapidity and dynamics. It was marred, at least on the recording I heard, by a bit of horn glare in the highs. I'm intrigued by the possibility that DEQX can take this kind of resonant flaw, which can never really be eliminated, out -- not only did they have a spectacular demonstration with a cheap horn in their room, I overheard someone saying that DEQX does wonders with Voice of the Theater speakers. In any case, it was a pleasure to hear systems with real dynamics.



The Prism Calia DAC sounded wonderful on a lute recording. Very impressed.

Audioquest has two new Dragonflies -- the black is an upgrade of the 1.2 I use on my computer speakers, and the Red has a 2.1V output and uses a higher-end DAC chip (ESS 9106), 32-bit digital rather than analog volume control (they say it is superior to analog when implemented with 32 bits), and a minimum phase filter. I had a chance to compare the two and the Red was much, much better -- sweet, euphonious, and analog sounding.

I heard an impressive demonstration of the Niagara 7000's transient power correction, which is capable of delivering 90 amps on peaks -- it made a major improvement in a system with ARC amps. The music was played at natural levels which is to say it was loud, the hotel power was presumably mediocre and suffering from voltage drop, and the room was big and filled with an overflow crowd, so I wouldn't expect the difference to be as profound at home. Still, it sounds like it could be a useful upgrade for those who drive their systems at realistic levels.

I liked the German Physics -- my notes say great voice, good imaging. Did not like the MBL's. Maybe they were having a bad day, but they seemed to me to be living in a cloud of phony reverb.

Elac was showing the B6 floorstanders -- amazing for the money, about $500 -- there was quite a crowd. My notes say they lacked sheen, which is to be expected given that they aren't using exotic tweeters -- and I heard them only with limited program material, mostly male voice (excellent) and a female vocal (also good). So can't say anything definitive. But the sense I got is that they punch way above their price class, and would be great for a non-audiophile, a kid in a dorm, or a second system.

The Focal Sopra 2 was a real pleasure -- I wrote in my notes "wonderful beryllium tweeter -- does everything right." I've since seen that some others were as impressed as I was.

Was pleasantly surprised by the Audio Notes. Now there's an example of a speaker that shouldn't work, because it seemingly does everything wrong by current engineering standards -- and yet they sounded excellent. It was particularly interesting to hear good three-dimensional imaging coming from speakers that were against the wall. After hearing undistinguished sound from a slew of overpriced MTM towers and mini monitors, they were a pleasant surprise:



There's a new Stereo 70, with improved components -- didn't get to hear it:



And finally, coolest tech at the show:



EDIT -- Someone asked if I'd head the Salks. I heard the Song 3 in the Schitt room, and thought they were really nice -- not surprising, perhaps, what with their Raal tweeters. Can't say I've heard a bamboo cone mid before, though. :-)

 

RE: Some other fun stuff, posted on June 12, 2016 at 16:13:38
TitaniumTroy
Audiophile

Posts: 622
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Joined: October 14, 2006
Josh, did you get a chance to check out any YG Acoustics speakers. I always like hearing them at the shows.

 

RE: Some other fun stuff, posted on June 12, 2016 at 17:04:24
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
I did, and as I recall they were sounding good:




 

RE: Yet more show stuff -- NFS Audio, posted on September 3, 2016 at 08:51:36
bigmike
Audiophile

Posts: 90
Location: Las Vegas
Joined: September 14, 2002
Thank you all for coming by our audio experience!
We aim to please.
Since the show, I have had the power supply on the Modded HK Citation 2 beefed up along with the numerous other upgrades. The Gunned Maggies really sing with this amp.
Mike

 

RE: Yet more show stuff -- NFS Audio, posted on September 6, 2016 at 17:11:05
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12327
Joined: February 9, 2010
Sounds great, I'd love to haar it. Next year! :-)

 

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