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My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great

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Posted on May 5, 2016 at 12:33:47
Rodcarew29
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Joined: May 5, 2016
 Setup:

Bluesound Node streaming Tidal
Mod Squad Line Drive passive Preamp
Bryston 4B-ST power amp
Magnepan .7s
SVS SB-1000 sub
Bluejean cable interconnects.


Hello everyone. I just completed my setup that I built entirely around my brand new Maggie .7s. I am new to real audio and my comprehension of the science is rudimentary. I will start out with my question. I am not thrilled with how the SVS sounds with the Maggie .7s. I want to try and figure out what's wrong. Could it be the settings on the SVS, or the placement of the Maggies and the SVS, or is the SVS just the wrong sub for the job and does it need to be upgraded?

I built the setup around the Maggies. The only component that I had going in was the SVS which I had with some nice mini Silverline Minuet Supreme bookshelves and the two sounded really good together. Then I went over to Audiolab - an authorized Maggie dealer and demo'd the .7s and was wowed. I thought that I was all-set with using a Yamaha receiver when I read about the power-hunger. I was on a real budget, so I found the used Bryston ($995), then the Node to stream the Tidal at 24bit (demo $165) and nearly tapped I asked about a cheap preamp and was pointed to passives and found the Mod Squad ($200). Then the cables came along via Bluejeans.

I am finding that the SVS sounds mushy and too warm. It also seems that it might not be keeping up with the Maggies. It's slower than the Maggie's sound. Finally, the detail that the
.7s provide are being lost underneath the SVSs more spread-out bass.

The room it's in is 14X9x40 (living room into kitchen). The SVS is in the corner placed a few inches away from one .7 to it's side. The other .7 is about 8-9 feet away. The SVS is connected to the preamp with 30ft Bluejeans interconnects.

The SVS settings I though sounded the best to me were at 50-60 hz. The Maggies are about a foot off the wall and the SVS is about 2 feet off the corner.

I would love to know what your thoughts and advice are. If you do respond please keep in mind that I don't understand very much in terms of the why but I am good with following orders.

If it means it's the SVS then is there an upgrade (used or new) under $800 that would really make the difference?

I am very much obliged

Adam

 

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RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 5, 2016 at 12:58:26
gentlegiantfan
Audiophile

Posts: 1004
Location: central florida
Joined: November 25, 2002
 "new Maggie .7s"

I can't tell you much about integrating the sub so I will leave that to others. However, I can tell you that brand new Maggies will sound shrill and brittle for the first 25-30 hours of play until the mylar stretches a bit and they get broken-in. They will continue to improve more gradually and incrementally over the next 75 hours or so.

"The Maggies are about a foot off the wall and the SVS is about 2 feet off the corner."

3-5 ft out into the room is *much* better ... gives the di-pole reflected sound the "bounce time" it needs to sound realistic. Even if you have to move them out to listen & back when done to keep "Mama" happy ... this is considered vital among Maggieists. I suspect your overly long (40ft) room to be part of your problem, but again I will leave that to others more qualified. Good luck.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 5, 2016 at 14:07:24
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 Yes, Maggies further out into the room, 5' from the front wall isn't too far...defintely not close to the walls. Sub not in the exact corner, at least 6"-1' from walls if possible. You don't want too much "reinforcement", it will sound mushy/flabby.

50-60Hz is probably OK, I started with that, but after I measured, 40Hz @ -24dB was much better here [1.6s, SVS sub, don't recall the sub model (it doesn't say!), but the "big one"]. Set the sub input level much lower than you (probably) think you should set it. You shouldn't hear the sub per se, but you should know it's there, providing a base to the bass that you can sense/feel. You don't want to get bass fatigue, it does grate on the senses after a while, whereas tight and defined is the goal, not the "volume" of bass. Don't forget that without amp input filters, the Maggies are reproducing (some of) the lower bass too (though not that well sub ~50Hz by my measurements...).

With one sub, you are going to get a very small sitting window where it sounds good. That's the nature of low bass, nothing you can do about that except get more subs, but even that gets a bit awkward in the analog domain with more gadgets.

Consider the ~$100 "investment" so you can measure instead of "guess". Might open up a new field of interest, or frustrate the hell out of you... I really doubt it'll save you any time in the long run, regardless. But it will improve results, and at least you'll know. :)

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 5, 2016 at 15:19:28
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015



Here's my set-up, which may or may not be helpful for you given that my room is so different, but:

Small listening room- 11' w x 13' long but rear wall opens to living room. Speakers are MMG's on stands which raise them about 6" off the carpeted floor. Speakers are about 4.5' from front wall and toed-in slightly. I run two inexpensive 8" Pioneer powered subs- Andrew Jones designed. the subs are about 6" from the front wall and about 1.5 ' in from the side walls. Crossover is around 55hz. I set the volume knob on the subs so that, as another poster said, I "feel" the bass is there, rather than have it obtrusive. The MMG's put out a surprising amount of mid bass and sound pretty darn good without the subs. Unless you listen to organ music, or other recordings with truly low bass, or LOUD bass-heavy pop music- I think subwoofers are really not essential. I tried the Pioneers because they are so modestly priced.

I'll be experimenting with diffusers on each side of the window. I added lots of 1" felt dots to each corner of the window which helps tame the glass. Curtains are not an option.

Two subs are definitely better than one, IMO.

FYI: Electronics are upgraded MFA, tube. Speaker cables are currently DIY magnet wire- which sounds terrific, and as good, if not better, than some much more expensive stuff that I've run.


Hope this helps a bit.

It took a fair amount of experimentation, but I am quite happy with the integration of the subs with the MMGs.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 5, 2016 at 17:26:17
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 In my room, I can't get my 1.6s out more than about 3'. But the sub? I set the subs LP at about 40hz and the lo CUT to the mains about 50hz.
NO muddines or MUSH thru the passband. Sub is OUT of the corner. But I have a strange room with 8 sides and a peaked ceiling. Even the peak is off center.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 6, 2016 at 03:53:06
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Nice set up Paul.Are your bass traps in the corners DIY? How much power do your tube mono blocks put out?
Dave

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 6, 2016 at 09:42:27
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Are you running the 0.7 full range (I hope the answer is yes)? I recommend the LP filter at 40-50 for the 0.7. A used REL Strata III would be an excellent choice for a sub that integrates well and should be available for $500-600.
Comments on the Bryston - Plenty of juice with great bass. The treble seems a bit dry.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 6, 2016 at 10:58:02
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 In my one experience with SVS subs, I found them a bit thuddy/one noted, and locatable. This was at CES in a SVS system.
Move your speakers out from the rear wall for use (run them full range?).
Sub x-over point to 45 or so should be a good starting point.
You could try 2 SVS subs, but if one ain't working 2 might not either. I think 2 will work better unless the one is centered in the room / better located.
Proven subs that work are REL Strata III (I have 2), ML Depth, Vandersteen subs...
Edit; agree with cfraser; IME sealed subs match best.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 6, 2016 at 12:59:33
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 Just IME and my preference, but I like sealed subs for music. They are tighter, and I don't know the proper audiophile term, but they seem to have less bass "inertia". IOW the notes sound to rise and decay faster with sealed, whereas with ported they seem to "hang" a bit longer.

Anyway, I use sealed subs for HT and music, maximum bass output was not a priority. That's why I got an SVS sub that offers the ported or sealed option, I wanted to compare modes as I had never had a ported sub before. SVS almost *never* demos their systems with sealed subs, which they have a few of, like the SB-1/2000 are. You get significantly more bass output with ported, and that's what they demo, because that's what some (most?) people want, especially for HT, which let's face it, is the real $$ market.

Use your main speakers to give the bass tone, use the subs to give the base/foundation/impact, speaking of music and not LFE.

[ FWIW, my (sealed mode) subs are SVS PC13-Ultra and ACI Titan II for music. The Titan was too pretty to take out of the room :), and placed diagonally opposite the SVS in the room it makes a large difference in smoothness and bass quality, even though it only has a small fraction of the SVS's amplifier capability. IOW when going for bass *smoothness* of FR in a room, I would choose two smaller subs rather than one large one, far superior results, more annoying wiring though (for music, at least LFE only uses one cable). Another ACI was not an option here as they were gone... (: ]

 

Yes!, posted on May 6, 2016 at 13:08:34
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Sealed; completely agree. Will even change my post to include that.
As for what I heard the one time... you're probably right!

 

Agreed on all points, posted on May 6, 2016 at 14:28:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 First, the speakers need to go 5' or more off the front wall. Definitely not at 1 foot.

The SB1000 is sealed, so if it is not fast enough to match with the maggies then getting a second is not likely going to work.

A bipolar sealed sub is another option that should match much better with maggies. E.g. Parts Express Dayton RS1202 (also big and heavy (170#) but not really expensive also available as a kit

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 6, 2016 at 19:09:56
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thank you.
The Tube Traps are ancient originals that I've carried from place to place, like an audiophile nomad.

The MFA mono's are rated at 120 WPC, into 8 Ohms. I run the MMG's off the 4 Ohm tap, and the subs off the 8 Ohm. Amplifier power tubes are currently Ruby KT-88's. I have also used Gold Lion re-issues with great success.

My pre-amp is a highly-upgraded MFA Luminescence and it's fun to roll tubes in that unit, especially in the line stage, since much of my source material now is streaming.

I've discovered all kinds of new and new to me, music as a Spotify subscriber. After many years of searching for some "audiophile systemic holy grail" I'm finally quite content to simply listen and enjoy music.

In my opinion, the MMG's are a most amazing value. I bought mine used and restored them, doing a "half-razor" as long as I had the socks off.

I think if the OP experiments with speaker placement, he may very well find that he doesn't really "need" subwoofers.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 7, 2016 at 12:41:46
Rodcarew29
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Joined: May 5, 2016
 Howdy,

I am sorry that I was absent after everyone giving their help. I'm very happy to say that the advice you all gave has worked. It was a matter of moving them off the wall and setting the SVS sub to 50 hz. Moved them 6 ft off and centered the sub more. And then I had bliss.

I want to ask some more questions later but I wanted to post this right now

Sincerely,

Adam

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 8, 2016 at 14:04:26
Rodcarew29
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Joined: May 5, 2016
 What does it mean to run the Maggies at full-range?

And what is the LP filter?

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 8, 2016 at 14:46:49
Rodcarew29
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Joined: May 5, 2016
 The sound problem is completely resolved with the SVS 1000 dialed in properly at 50 HZ and having the Maggies 5 ft off the wall. I am not completely satisfied with the SVS sound. It just doesn't compare to what's coming out of the .7s.

Here's my question: Would it be better to replace the SVS with a significantly better single sub or get another SVS 1000 and have the two?

I happen to have a Outlaw M8. Here are the specs:

Driver Type: Down Firing, 8" Long-throw Woofer
Ports: One, down firing
Amplifier Power Rating: 125W RMS class AB
Frequency Response:
29Hz-250Hz +/-3dB
Crossover:
Lowpass : 40Hz to 220Hz
Phase: 0 or 180 Degrees

I will try it out, The Mod Squad preamp has two RCA outputs. One goes to the amp and the other goes to the SVS. How can I get another sub on board.

What kind of splitter would get two subs connected to one rca output?

Thanks
Adam

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 8, 2016 at 15:50:34
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 It means that you do not put them through a line level crossover nor use the subwoofer's crossover crossover before the speakers so they play the entire signal.

The LP is the low pass filter in the subwoofer or in a receiver/integrated amp with bass management features or with an electronic crossover. It is part of a crossover network usually comprising at least one LP and one (or more) HP (high pass) filters

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 9, 2016 at 04:55:16
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The second sub gets one channel and the original sub gets the other channel from the pre out. So you have one channel for each subwoofer so you divide the load and reduce the dominance of the room nodes from one sub.

The way you have it setup you are running the main speakers full range. Which is what you want to do unless you are straining the speakers at higher volumes, in which case you may want to consider running the signal through a high pass filter between the preamp and the power amp to reduce the load on both amp and speaker.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 9, 2016 at 09:22:54
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Full range -- no filter on the Maggies, just like you would do if you did not have a sub.
LP (low pass) filter allows signals lower than the specified frequency to pass and blocks signals above-- it's the setting you use for the sub. A HP (high pass) filter allows signals above the specified frequency to pass (and blocks signals below). Often the bass management system uses a HP filter to restrict the signal to the main speakers to 80 Hz (typical for home theater) and above. As I mentioned, this is a no-no for Maggies.
For completeness a BP (band pass) filter restricts the signal to a range and is typically used for the mid-range driver in a 3-way speaker.




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 9, 2016 at 13:12:32
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 The location of the listening position makes a big difference in the bass that you hear.You need to experiment with your seat at various distances from the rear wall to find the best spot for bass.That can be done without the subs.Once you know where you will be sitting,you can then determine where to place the subs.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 00:39:56
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The OTHER advantage of low cutting the mains is that Maggies give up fairly early.

THAT was part of my solution to a similar problem. When I set the crossovers about 10hz apart, with the mains being higher, ALL the mushy problems thru the bandpass went away. Now, it would appear to 'sum flat' thru the crossover.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 01:15:46
Kiefer74.1
Audiophile

Posts: 554
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Joined: October 12, 2006
 Although I made the switch to electrostats then a few Gallo models (settling with the 5LS's) over the past couple years I have had some experience with SVS subs and I've owned different Maggies from 1.6's to 3.6's over the last 15+ years with and without a sub.

I tried dual SB-2000's and thought the sound was horrible in most every way subs can sound bad both with music and with HT. Then I upgraded to dual SB Ultras a week or so later (this past January) and all my problems were solved. They sound great and match really well. If sticking with SVS I would only consider one or two SB Ultras or be looking at a different brand of subwoofers like the JL Audio e110 or e112. SVS does have an excellent return policy as well so it would be worth trying one or two of the Ultras if you have the $. Definitely worth the upgrade in price in every way IMO.

Best regards,
Jon

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 13:28:32
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 I would have to agree about the HPF, it is very worthwhile to keep the lowest stuff out of (especially) the Maggies. Measure and you will see absolutely why. Listen after the HPF install and all becomes "clear" in several ways.

The low freqs suck power from the amps. So not doing that is an advantage to the amps. The Maggies don't handle the lowest freqs graciously, so not subjecting them to that is a sonic and perhaps even a life-extending courtesy.

The HPF does not have to be at all sophisticated to do a noticeable job, but quality does matter of course, since all your music will be going through it. Compromises...you just want to make the upside a lot better than the downside.

Better two smaller subs than one large one (for the same overall $$, say), for smoothness of response. Very "nodey" with just one, but that may not matter so much in reality, for a single listener.

Another option is to use one large high-powered sub as the "pressurizer/driver" for the LFs, and another smaller lower-powered one (like the SB-1000) as the "smoother". That's what I do, it works just fine. It didn't seem good on paper, and I was reluctant, but the reality was completely different than my thoughts... Edit: the two subs should be opposite each other in the room, diagonally or on opposing walls, for this method to work best.

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 14:26:13
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Below a certain $$ point, a SINGLE well placed sub makes more sense than multiples. Only YOU can decide where that point may be.
When I bought MY sub, I had but 500$ to spend. In the HSU line? Maybe a pair of the entry subs would have worked but NOT with the low extension I wanted for movies. And room size also makes a big difference. A HUGE room (in CUBIC FEET) will require and benefit from both more robust and simply MORE subs.

I go with the ESP article on music power / biamping. The 50:50 power point is about 350hz. By cutting off the below 50 or 60hz TO my panels, I don't save THAT MUCH power, certainly not much more if even 10%. What DOES pay off is that you now have less or NO duplication between sub and mains. With my sub crossover at 40hz / 24db-oct and the preamp set at 50hz or so with a 12db-oct, I have very little duplication.
This helped SO MUCH that it was like buying a new sub.

My room is 8 sided (no joke) and has a ceiling peaked about about 11 feet well off-center!. With my sub in the LH corner behind that speaker, my DEN was a bigtime helmholtz and was like being in a single-tone 55 gallon drum. Moving the sub to the RH speaker, which is not in a corner fixed that problem immediately.

I believe making some diffusion for behind the panels will help a lot, also. But that's another chat for another time.

Next step? MiniDSP. The 2x8 seems best for my needs and I can case it and have a bracket made to support all the balanced connections. It comes with Phoenix connectors.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 14:48:55
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 3208
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 Sorry,I responded to you and meant to respond "in general"...gotta watch where my reading ends and my typing starts...

I stand by that no single sub can match what two of the same sub will do, or even with two "slightly lesser" subs can do compared to one of them. No way one will match, physics isn't changed by preference. I insist on measuring, the human ear is very poor at judging sub performance, or with very low frequencies in general. We use that to our advantage with subs.

As for the miniDSP: I do use some of their stuff. It is pretty good, but I will not use it for some stuff as long as the processing is done at 48kHz. I realize this is common for much "audio DSP" stuff, and I put up with it for now, but I am unwilling to use it in my "analog" system (it uses the subs too).

I do admit that it doesn't matter for bass and LFE, and also not as much (for me) for HT, but the prob is *all* the audio has to pass through the digital filter on the way to providing the bass. Good analog filters can cost a fair bit and are not within a couple magnitudes of the flexibility of the miniDSP units. Again, compromises...

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 11, 2016 at 15:12:13
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Yes, Certainly. Audio is replete with Rules Of Thumb. Guesstimates. A Bunch of Always / Never and more than a few opinions!

On ANY issue you'll have 2 crowds across from one another in the stands of a basketball court.
The court? No Mans Land and an absolute minefield. The participants yell across at one another in various shades of insult, suggestion and interpretive fact.

When I bought my original sub, I thought briefly about budget and just WHAT I could get without busting out. A single HSU Research in the VTF-2 line. I drove to the offices / warehouse and bought one for CASH, saving 10% and NO SHIPPING.
As it turns out? I have only SO MUCH space and 2 subs might not have fit. The LH corner is awful and no center space due to TV / Cabinet. Behind the RH speaker is IT for location. So, I guess it worked out.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: My new Maggie .7s and my SVS SB-1000 sub.... not too great, posted on May 17, 2016 at 08:25:29
wilbertiii
Audiophile

Posts: 64
Location: South Florida
Joined: January 10, 2014
 minidsp for sub intergration.............i got it i love it
The day I know it all, is the day their putting dirt in my face

 

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