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Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?

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Posted on April 13, 2016 at 15:48:45
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Well here we go again. The mid range in my left speaker is out, about 2 years ago my right side went out and as a result I had to send the panel back to Magnepan for repair to the tune of $1200.

I haven't taken it apart yet but I did check the connections on the backside of the fuse panel and all looks ok. I can't afford another $1200 right now so I am reluctant to take them apart.

Has anyone else had any issues like this? and my next question would be why is this happening, I never even blew fuses for the mid range at least until the failure BTW I have 20.1's

 

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RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 13, 2016 at 17:49:59
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 20.7 blew midrange on left channel

 

RE: So the mid-range fuse didn't save it? nt, posted on April 13, 2016 at 19:25:09
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

RE: So the mid-range fuse didn't save it? nt, posted on April 13, 2016 at 20:15:28
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 It may have, at 1st I replaced the fuse hopeing that was all it was but I was wrong, but after playing for a while the new fuse blew too, so maybe the fuse did originally save it.

I get the ribbon frying up since it is pretty fragile but what's up with the mid going out? this is no $100 repair and its starting to Pi$$ me off.

Maybe I'll get lucky and find a lesser culprit at fault but with past history I doubt it.

 

Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 13, 2016 at 21:18:38
Carl G
Audiophile

Posts: 710
Joined: July 4, 2000
 a few years ago, i had to sent my 3.6s in for a complete rebuild of the mid/woofers. the older bonding agent for wires to mylar are more prone to delaminating (and the effect of moisture) compared to the newer "glue". You may to give them a call to find out when they switched to the newer material. The assumption is that if you do need to sent it in, your repaired 20.1's will last many years . On the other hand, if you are driving your maggies hard, are you sure that your upper Sanders amp NEVER is driven to its max. From multiple Asylum discussions, you need about the same power to drive a mid/tweeter as is used for the bass panels....just sayin....

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 13, 2016 at 22:38:26
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 The 20.1's are newer so delam is not an issue, but I was under the impression that the mid-tweeter took less power to drive than the bass, if what you stated is true would I be better off switching the amps and put the Magtech on the mid-tweeters? Or would I then be putting the bass panels in jeopardy? I have no way of knowing if I am in fact pushing the ESL too hard. I do drive them pretty hard that's why I have the set up that I do.

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 13, 2016 at 22:56:53
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I think Magnepan switched to the new glue in 2004. You will need about the same power for bass and mid/tweeter. The mids are not very well protected as they operate at rather low frequences with a first order crossover. The mid foil conductor is thinner than any foil used for the QR-tweeters!

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 13, 2016 at 23:14:03
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Thanks Roger,

that explains a lot, what's the use of having the fuse then? that's a poor design by Magnepan, I rarely blow midrange fuses, I've blown a few tweeter fuses but an exchange tweeter for $100 is one thing, seems that Magnepan want's to sell $1200 panels instead thats a VERY POOR business practice, and this is my second one!!

Would I be better off with the Magtech on the mid-tweeters until I can get a second one?

 

RE: So the mid-range fuse didn't save it? nt, posted on April 14, 2016 at 00:45:34
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 No, the fuse is intact and didn't blow.

 

RE: So much for fuses on the mid-range then! ..., posted on April 14, 2016 at 02:36:48
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I deleted mine, long ago.

And my ribbon fuses about 6 years ago, for the same reason (they rarely protect the driver).


Andy

 

RE: So much for fuses on the mid-range then! ..., posted on April 14, 2016 at 02:58:29
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 While this is the first time we experienced failure in the midrange, I can attest from multiple tweeter failures that the fuses don't protect them at least when it comes to the 20.7

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 14, 2016 at 05:34:38
Green Lantern
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Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
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Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 >>>you need about the same power to drive a mid/tweeter as is used for the bass panels<<<<


I probably wasn't paying attention when this was brought up in the past but I'd like to revisit this concept. I've got a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks on each bass panel (high current, 1000 watts @ 4ohm), no way would I even consider my mids/tweeters getting pumped with those. I use a pair of UPA-1s which are about 400w ea @ 4ohm.

The reason I mention this is I just had a discussion with M3 Lover the other day regarding a pair of Parasound JC1s on the top end of my 20s and we both felt it would be a bit of an overkill. Although it would be possible to reduce the gain on my Marchand XO, I figure that would defeat the purpose.

Just my opine, YMMV.









 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 14, 2016 at 06:43:15
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 The mids of the 20-series will certainly not withstand hundreds of Watts without melting the Mylar. Remember the foli conductor is just 0.0005" x 0.1". They will also compress in its lower range as they cannot move very much air.

Those of you running 1000 W amps with Magnepan speakers. Have you ever measured how many Watts you really feed to the speakers? I would be surprised to see 1000 W in the bass, at least the in low bass where the fundmental resonance take up very much of the limited excursion.

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 14, 2016 at 07:37:51
Norman M
 Do foil conductors in the 20 series (0.0005" x 0.1") differ from those in the 3 series. If not it doesn't explain the failures in the 20.Xs. Additionally, there are probably fewer 20.s than 3.s in service.

Do the 20.s move less total 'corresponding' air than do 3.7s (or 3.7is) when given the same amount of 'juice', which might then tempt their owners to crank it up?

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 14, 2016 at 09:49:07
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 The 3.7/3.7i has different foil conductors, 0.001"x0.075". These can take more power. I am not sure if the 20-series mid have the thinner Mylar as the Tympani IVa had. Thinner Mylar will melt earlier/quicker. The mids of the 20-series are more "stressed" due to the lower cut-off frequency compared to the Tympani IVa.

 

RE: Old glue formulation or newer formulation, posted on April 14, 2016 at 10:13:12
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The MAIN drive behind the 'how much power' question is Crossover Frequency. Full range requirements are certainly high. But, with the crossover used @line level, your amps are given QUITE a break and actually put out more power (apparent) 'in band'.

It gets a Little more comlicated with 3-way and up speakers or when you have a 2-way, like my 1.6 panels AND a sub.

Generally, the 50:50 point is considered to be 350hz. In NO case should the power to the bass end be less than maybe 30 to 40% of the total. If you crossed as high as 5000hz, you could easily make due with 100 watts for the highs given the kilowatt below crossover.
Too much is never enough

 

Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 14, 2016 at 14:50:08
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The midrange crossover freq and slope (1st order vs 2nd order in a few MG20.x and T4 iterations) is coupled with the lower mass mylar and thinner foil are related issues. The power handling of the midrange is reduced as you go down in mylar thickness and thinner foil/wire gauge. The lower crossover freq and lower order XO also reduce the midrange's robustness as it is allocated more of the lower frequency load.

It is a long struggle of many planar makers to provide at the same time
1. higher power handling (higher XO, thicker mylar or tougher diaphragm like kaladex, Neo magnets and thicker foil)
2. higher resolution (thinner mylar thinner foil/wire, lower HP freq)
3. enhance coherence.. (lower XO freq so that midbass fundamentals are carried by the lower mass mids)

Genesis and Infinity using BG RD75 or RD50 drivers or EMIMs with Al foil on Mylar, had provided the user with the option of adjusting the mid XO from appx 100hz for low output music to appx 200 hz for louder music. That provided better coherence and resolution at lower volumes and sufficient power handling at higher volumes.

I think magnepan had taken the crossover freq slightly too low and are facing the same problem that Genesis and Infinity reached and should have provided the loud playing user with the option of either switcing the speaker to a higher crossover freq. on the 20.1 or 20.7 or ordering the 20.7 with a higher XO freq.

Since the 20.1 can be crossed over electronically, the crossover can be switched to a higher freq (for both LP and HP) - following the Infinity and Genesis example I would suggest you do just that and put the XO freq up one octave. Very easy to do with a Marchand or Pass crossover.

For the 20.7 you can do exactly the same with internal mid HP cap halved and bass LP coil halved in either a replacement strategy or as a hot switchable option. That would allow playing at higher volume without burning your midrange drivers.

The solution I picked was to go out from the Mylar and ferrous magnet construction chosen by Infinity Magnepan and the BG RD series (and Wisdom) and go for a Neo8 line array that uses a polyamide or imide kaladex that can withstand higher temperatures and Neo magnets that allow a thinner metal foil. The result is higher sensitivity, higher ultimate output and higher resolution. As a result I gradually lowered my XO from the "just to be safe" 300hz 4th order to 250 hz 1st order and now even 150 hz 1st order. In an accident a few years back I clocked my mids running 126 db.

I don't know if the Neo8 line array is a solution for 20.1 owners even if the drivers were still available. The AMT Pro 8" drivers can't be driven as low as the Neo8 and will likely require 4-500hz high pass. Or 300 hz with a high order slope.

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 14, 2016 at 15:58:53
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Great info Satie;

But way over my head,I am using a Marchand XM44 my question to you would be should I back off on the high setting on it?

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 14, 2016 at 20:51:05
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Get Phil at Marchand to build you new boards with the same slope but the crossover frequency (actually both HP and LP freq would be doubled) one octave higher, or keep the same crossover frequency but go for a steeper crossover - say a symmetrical LR4. Then you plug in the new boards and can play more loudly - and can swap back the original boards for low volume playback if you end up lacking detail with the new boards.

I would personally go for the LR4 choice since it is not that bad in a 2 way biamp setup and would allow you to keep an octave's worth of the midrange driver's higher resolution.

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 14, 2016 at 21:39:09
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Thanks Satie;

I am pretty ignorant when it comes to the technical side of this hobby, Phil did send me some other boards.

This is what I have installed now 300HzHP6, and 135HzLP18

This is what he sent also 200HzHP24, and 200LP24

Using your suggestion translated with these numbers what do I ask Phil for?

Many thanks for all of your help....

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 15, 2016 at 11:08:33
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Since you already have them, the 200 hz LP24 boards should help you by taking out low freq drive requirements from your mids. Plug those in and you should have less congestion in the midrange when playing hard and be less likely to burn them again.

If I were making fresh boards I would have taken 250 hz on a "just to be safe" driven choice.

Read how to replace the boards, it is easy but you need to do it correctly and plug the new LP board where the old one was and the HP board where the old HP board was.

For future improvement you will want to swap the caps on the boards with better foil caps as the LR24 have many of them so the difference in SQ is significant. .

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 16, 2016 at 04:34:13
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 The reason why the ribbon blows is that the amp is in clipping mode - this produces a 'spray' of HF harmonics ... which produces much more current through the ribbons than normal music does.

So maybe you need to buy a more powerful amp for your 20.7s??

Another way of stopping this happening is to replace the 20.7's passive XO with an active XO and a second (or a third) amp. Here, the frequency splitting happens in front of the amplifiers (not at the speakers) - so the ribbon amp is immune to the effect of fierce current draw by the bass amp, when dealing with loud LFs, which send it into clipping.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 16, 2016 at 05:19:46
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 Thanks for the tips Andy. Unfortunately in my case it wasn't from the lack of power. The 20.7 was driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k and still gave us problems.

I like the active crossover idea but I have since given up on Maggies and have pass them along to a friend which is when the panel gave way. He is now awaiting replacement panels and I have gone the way of a active vertical bi-amped boxy.

Still, it's undeniable the 20.7 when working well are spectacular (in spite of the short comings), even more so when matched with very high quality gear.

 

Marchand Mods of xover cards, posted on April 16, 2016 at 06:33:46
Carl G
Audiophile

Posts: 710
Joined: July 4, 2000

the cards on these boards are fairly small. See pix on link below of an example. you mention foils to mod the cards, what specific foils have you tried that will fit the cards and could you elaborate on the actual audible improvements. I have added a link to this topic from the past.
thanks image link http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649258631-marchand-xm44-crossover/images/1175005/

 

RE: Marchand Mods of xover cards, posted on April 16, 2016 at 13:35:04
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I used mostly 0.01 uF Dayton foils but also RTE polystyrenes and platinum caps from sonicap.

I used both sides of the boards to get the real estate required. Smaller values would be easier to fit on one side. But the smallest Dayton foil is 0.01uF and that is the best value in foil caps.Absolute results are just a notch or two below the best foils from Jantzen and Duelund.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 16, 2016 at 13:42:17
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 So what box speakers did you end up with?

 

RE: "driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k" ..., posted on April 16, 2016 at 14:46:41
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Wow! Even with 1Kw available.

Then the problem with the 20.7 must be what one of the other posters said ... Magnepan set the bass LP / mid HP XO too low (given it's only 1st order). It needs to be up one octave. Fairly simple to do, if your mate feels like preventing a recurrence of a blown mid.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: "driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k" ..., posted on April 16, 2016 at 15:14:49
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I clipped my Crown 5002vz and drove it to thermal shut down and it is rated 2X2.5kw @1khz and 2X2kw @20-20khz Just driving the bass panel.

Actually likely that a 400W amp would clip in single amp drive 1kw - not that likely.

 

RE: Marchand Mods of xover cards sonic improvements, posted on April 16, 2016 at 15:24:15
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 were first of all in smoothness at the top end while retaining the sparkle on high hats triangle and the metallic sheen of brass, just that these were now more realistic and less electronic sounding. The second was that it sounded fuller in the mids when the bandpass boards were done. The slight bit of upper mid/low treble shrillness was gone as was the slight thinness in tone. Imaging improved, particularly in the depth dimension and it tightened the bass a bit further.

 

RE: "driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k" ..., posted on April 17, 2016 at 02:38:21
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 I think getting the replacement panel replaced and up and running is his priority. My mate plays them really loud so how the panel stands up to that kind of punishment will dictate if he stays or goes my route,

I will certainly pass on the info regardless..after all one more option is always welcomed.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 17, 2016 at 02:39:45
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 Ended up with a pair of FM Acoustics speakers, running them active vertical biamped.

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 17, 2016 at 08:36:35
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Sure wish there was a way Phil could design the mother board to accept those mods so one could simply select them via selector switch on front rather than manually inserting them.









 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 17, 2016 at 10:01:55
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 How did you get those? Are they the direct driven XS model that they seem to insist on not selling - sort of like Aston Martins? Did you have to buy the entire amp chain from them before you could order the speaker?
Their cost is insane.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 17, 2016 at 10:12:25
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 Yes there are the XS speakers that FM does not sell on a commercial basis. Yes you have to be fulfill certain requirements before the XS would be offered to you.

I was already using their components on the Maggies. Hence it was for me a natural progression albeit it was a hard decision to leave the Maggies route.

 

RE: Low crossover and thinner mylar and foil , posted on April 17, 2016 at 10:27:45
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 My complaint is the same - after desoldering and resoldering the boards so many times I was beginning to lose the loops on the circuit board. I was looking at vacuum and air variable capacitors to make changing freq and slope easy rather than deal with the potentiometers' familiar problems in transparency and tracking, but it seemed to have equivalent problems as the potentiometers and those are cheaper and far smaller in size. I used wire wound pots for the PLLXO for a while.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 18, 2016 at 02:59:18
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I am not so much impressed by your leaving the Maggies than by the costly substitute. I am thinking about you going for a more compact line source planar speaker to get some of the maggie magic back. Like a Wisdom, or a Carver ALS with dual subs, or a hybrid Scaena,

 

RE: "driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k" ..., posted on April 18, 2016 at 03:02:17
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Does your friend use a subwoofer? That might prevent the amp from clipping if the bass is taken off it's power duties.

We also discussed raising the XO by an octave but retaining the low order slopes.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 18, 2016 at 11:04:29
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 My apologies to the thread starter for deviating from the main topic.

I posted a thread some time back regarding suggestions for alternatives to the 20.7 and received many suggestions...some are not readily available in my part of the world, others I have heard but didn't fit as replacements. I lived with the Minis, 1.7, 3.7 and 20.7..the Maggie magic is not easily replaceable.

I have also had many opportunities to listen to the FM XS systems..they were unforgettable. I was already using FM components so when the offer came along I sold my kidneys together with all my other internal organs rendering me a zombie (albeit one that enjoys his music) for the XS. IMO, it took that much to replace the Maggies.

 

RE: "driven with amps ranging from 400W up to 1k" ..., posted on April 18, 2016 at 11:12:40
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 He does not use subs and neither did I when I had them. We both share a broad music repertoire and we like it loud. I think both of us realize the short comings of the 20.7 but we can live with it given when the music flows, there is no need to analyze or dissect the music..just being one with the music suffice.

I believe subs are inherently hard to integrate properly with planars and prefer it's when systems are kept simple. For that reason we never attempted to mess around with subs.

I will pass along the info Andy and yourself shared regarding the XO mod but inherently he isn't a tinkerer and I cannot foresee him attempting to.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 18, 2016 at 23:57:21
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Well, that puts the Maggie value proposition in perspective.

Anyway congrats on obtaining the unobtanium and one of the most respected single source systems known.

 

RE: So much for fuses on the mid-range then! ..., posted on April 19, 2016 at 09:50:57
Norman M
 I've been listening to the same pair of Tympani IV-As for 25+ years. They have always been fused (4amps/MR and 3.5/Tweeters). In all that time I have not burned out any part of the speakers, however many, many fuses. In the early years of my listening I played them absurdly loud, so I know why fuses burned. Nowadays I'm not given to playing them that loud, however I burn fuses when stupidly switching to a source set to play at a much louder level than the previous one.

Unrelated to fuses, there's never been any banana peel I can detect (nothing lifting from the panels and they never buzz no matter how loud I might attempt playing them). They remain *stock*, in the same state I bought them.

 

RE: multiple tweeter failures ..., posted on April 19, 2016 at 13:19:13
PoisonM
Audiophile

Posts: 107
Joined: January 13, 2011
 They certainly do.

Cheers.

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:06:34
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 macmagman,

I will sound stupid by saying this but playing HI-FI systems loud will cost a lot of money. Somewhere in the chain there is going to be a weak link and I think you may have found it. In my early days I blew fuses all the time. Replacing fuses and tweeters became almost a habit. That was 40 years ago and since that time I have not blow one fuse. I now listen at reasonable volumes and actively ask myself if I am listening to the music or just trying to shake the walls.
Party on dude but as I always say: "If you want to play (loud) you have to pay".

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 28, 2016 at 10:26:53
Norman M
 "Replacing fuses and tweeters became almost a habit. That was 40 years ago and since that time I have not blow one fuse. I now listen at reasonable volumes ..."

I think playing LOUD is a young person's thing, as they find it exciting. After 40 years of listening it's likely you have become a 'senior'. If like myself, 'loud' no longer excites me. (Forty years ago and listening to Tympani 1Cs I played them plenty loud, but never blew fuses nor panels so provided no deterrent.)

(Maybe there's a Viagra equivalent for listening, so I might get excited by play loud again.)

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 04:49:11
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Thanks for all the advice so far, so far I have changed the LP card to the 200HZ hopefully that will help take some of the load off of the midrange. I also have replaced fuses in my tweeters from pushing it too hard and I expect that, even the occasional tweeter failure never bothered me as its an easy inexpensive repair,

My beef is that the midrange fuse almost never blows then all of a sudden it doesn't work and I am left with a $1200 expense and a pretty good project to remove the bass mid panel to send back to Magnepan.

And as far as playing it loud, 1st off I'm no kid, just turned 60 this year with that said to me, and people that have enjoyed my system it never seems to be too loud, as you turn up the volume the sound just gets better and better, I don't feel like im really over driving them, then again I do know I have a lot of power and I thought that would help things but I see it just creates other issues.

Its like buying a Ferrari and only driving the speed limit, I didn't build this system NOT to use it.

Again that's for all the advice it is appreciated.

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 09:31:24
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Your room is rather large so would require more speaker output to fill it out even at "reasonable" listening levels.

The speaker design is a compromise so the power handling has to be traded off against coherence (how far down you take the midrange) and detail -which means the thinness and weight/area of the mids - which also reduces thermal stability and tensile strength. For your size room they may have gone too far in taking down power handling in favor of refinement. Fortunately for you, you have the ability to cut the mids out more sharply with the 200hz LR4 XO boards.

Tell us what it sounds like with the sharper XO once you finished adjusting toe in etc. to the new XO.

Hopefully that is the last mid panel you burn..

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 09:47:20
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Are the midrange drivers in the 20-series using 6µm Mylar or is it 12µm?

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 09:56:44
Norman M
 "And as far as playing it loud, 1st off I'm no kid, just turned 60 this year with that said to me, and people that have enjoyed my system it never seems to be too loud, as you turn up the volume the sound just gets better and better, I don't feel like im really over driving them, then again I do know I have a lot of power and I thought that would help things but I see it just creates other issues."

All I had intended to imply is that it's customary that "kids" (and there's some leeway there) get a kick out of playing loud. At 60 you might easily be one of their Dads (and for really young kids, their grandpas).

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 10:01:52
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The 20.1 use 6um in a push pull magnet structure vs. single ended in the original 20 - they figured they can lower the thickness and double up the magnetic field so would keep power handling roughly the same.

It didn't quite work out that way since the magnet board up front raised air flow resistance so they lost thermal dissipation capacity. For most users that is not an issue. For playback in a really large room it does make a difference - hence the burnt mids..

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 11:10:18
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Have you seen how they do this? As they need to do the bass and mid on the same structure. Can they repair the mid without destroying the bass?

 

RE: Having midrange failure issues, anyone else?, posted on April 29, 2016 at 11:38:17
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 No, they have to open both sections - that is why it is so expensive to get the repair done. I don't think they actually repair them in all cases, but put in new driver sections if the mylar is damaged, as would be the case from thermal failure.

 

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