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Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies

74.112.215.126
Posted on January 26, 2016 at 05:48:00
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 250
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
 I hope the moderator doesnt move this to the cables forum... I am wanting to keep this Maggie specific. I have been looking at different cable options. It seems the Kimber 8TC keeps popping up for a favorite for the Magnepan speakers. I personally am using a high current solid state amp with 3.6s. Historically I have been using audio research litz cables which I felt worked nicely with my setup but I now need 12ft cables and my litz cables are 4ft.

Does anybody here also run the 8TC or do you have a different recommendation for your magnepans? Would love to hear what you have to say. Thanks for your time

Jim
My Pronouns are: Conservative, Patriot and Two Turntables

 

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Anti-cables..., posted on January 26, 2016 at 06:43:36
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 I tried a few cables (can't recall the models, the brands were Tara, Monster and a couple others I can't currently recall), none compared to the Anti-cables in my system. Always wanted to try Kimber though, will one day...

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on January 26, 2016 at 07:17:33
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I agree with using Anti-cables but being a cheapskate I bought a 1/2# spool of 16 awg magnet wire from Remington Industries and "made" my own. I said made but that is a mild exaggeration since I just loosely twisted a pair of wires and use them bare (no termination). I felt the 12awg of the Anti-cables was overkill and I can't hear a difference between the official Anti-cable and my DIY. The spool costs about $10 and gives you 64'.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies, posted on January 26, 2016 at 14:17:16
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I run Auditorium 23 speaker cables. Love them

 

RE: As neo has stated ..., posted on January 26, 2016 at 17:40:08
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 anti-cables work well with Maggies - but all they are is a thin solid-core cable ... so it's easy to make your own.

Solid-core is the key for Maggies, IMO (instead of stranded cable) but if you have a high current amp, you are probably wanting enough copper cross-sectional area to be able to deliver this current. Which means multiple individually-insulated strands - ie. Litz wire, which you already have. :-))

You can combine the sonic benefit of solid-core with adequate current carrying capacity by using Cat5 or Cat6 cable - providing you select the solid-core variant. And with teflon insulation, like Belden 1585a, for ultimate SQ.

8x24g individually-insulated strands gives you 15g - which should be plenty enough for 12'. So use 1 Cat5/6 jacket for the '+' terminal and 1 jacket for the '-' terminal ... so 16 wires in all, per speaker.
Note: with these 16 wires, there are 3 ways to connect them up - each way has different 'C' and 'L' parameters:

#1 - just use 1 jacket to each binding post. This delivers the minimum capacitance - which your amp might like - but the maximum inductance ... so is the worst-sounding (low 'L' is what you want in a speaker cable).

#2 - use 2 pairs from each jacket for '+' and 2 pairs for '-'. This has higher capacitance than #1 ... but lower inductance, so it will sound better.

#3 - use the 8x coloured wires for '+' and the 8x striped wires for '-'. This has the highest capacitance of the 3 options ... but, as a result, the lowest inductance and therefore the highest SQ. So the only issue is ... will your amp be able to handle this amount of capacitance? For 12' cables, I would think this should not be a problem.

IMO/IME, these speaker cables sound fantastic ... their only drawback is that they are labour intensive! :-(( (Stripping the ends off 64 strands of wire to make 1 set of speaker cables! :-(( ) I use them in configuration #1 for long cable lengths to ancillary speakers (like, 50' long) and in configuration #3 for my Maggies (6' long).

And the low cost of the Cat5/Cat6 cable means that it costs very little to experiment. :-))


Good luck!

Andy

 

Ideally? , posted on January 26, 2016 at 17:49:08
E-Stat
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Posts: 37584
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 The best I've heard Maggies was at Sea Cliff where Harry used Nordost Valhalla. :)





 

RE: Ideally? , posted on January 26, 2016 at 17:59:32
Green Lantern
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Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
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Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Yowzsa, Yowzsa, Yowzsa! Nice-









 

Agree re: Anti-cables, posted on January 26, 2016 at 19:00:16
CometCKO
Audiophile

Posts: 873
Joined: August 9, 2002
 I went through Kimber, different Audioquest, and a very nice set of Analysis Plus cables. Another time, I tried 5 different sets via The Cable Company lending program. I liked the Harmonic Technology cables from that test.

But frankly, I find the Anti-cables from Paul Speltz worked extremely well for my bi-amped Maggie 1.6qr's.

These days I run extremely short speaker cable runs. Not sure how short a run has to be before cable differences are moot.



"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"

 

Nice! I'm a Nordost fan, myself..., posted on January 27, 2016 at 08:32:34
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Valhalla has always been way out of my budget.

However? In MY systems, I found the Blue Heaven to sound nicer than the Red Dawn.

In the end? I was so happy with the performance of the simple "Super Flatline MkII biwire," that I couldn't justify paying more for the Blue Heaven. STILL using the Super Flatlines on my Gallo Nuc Ref 3 speakers.

 

RE: As neo has stated ..., posted on January 27, 2016 at 11:41:27
3rdRock
Audiophile

Posts: 74
Location: Nashville TN
Joined: April 2, 2006
 "Solid-core is the key for Maggies,"
I have found this to be true as well!

Currently using Clearday Double Shotguns (4 individual conductors of solid core silver to each terminal) with my 20.7's. They have beat out every stranded copper cable that I have tried with my Maggies. Very reasonably priced and compete very well with cables selling for 3 times as much!

Paul is a delight to work with and can make you up a pair of custom length if required. His cables are cooked on a cable burner before being shipped out.

 

RE: As neo has stated ..., posted on January 27, 2016 at 12:51:48
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 When using DIY magnet wire,are the conductors only insulated with varnish?

 

Yep, just like Anti-cables. , posted on January 27, 2016 at 13:01:02
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Although varnish is a little misleading. Usually some type of polyamide or other synthetic and it's pretty tough but could be rubbed off with constant abrasion (very unlikely). Also because the coating is tightly bound to the wire, the copper never oxidizes which is not the case with standard cable, especially when the covering is PVC.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Ideally? , posted on January 27, 2016 at 13:30:55
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The prices on that are entirely outlandish. I can't fault them for performance.

I have used various wiring strategies DIY and tried a few Tara and MIT cables and can say that the top level MIT cables are really top notch if they are matched at the factory to the impedances you are using and broken in extensively on dummy loads.

That is not to say that a $14k speaker wire is in any way "worth" the money.

I can say that bi/multiamping allows you to do an easier job in matching wiring to the freq range, with fat wires for bass, and more reasonable wiring for mids and treble.

I also oppose the use of stranded copper wire and would only use a solid core, litz or a silver clad or plated stranded wire. That said, silver plated stranded wires tend to have an overemphasized top octave. Cat 5 wires with the striped and colored halves of the pairs used for each polarity come out very well, but do have a top end emphasis, I have used that config for tweeter wire.

The one thing you do want is to have as little wire as possible in use and have as few connections as possible. If the wire contacts are open air then you need to clean them periodically and reinsert to the connectors. If you have mono amps or vertically biamp place the amps by the speakers and use the minimal length of cable.

I am also a fan of JBen's multi gauge solid core parallel wire ribbons recipe for full freq wire. Look it up it is a very good and not costly solution.

 

choices, posted on January 27, 2016 at 14:30:36
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 I think you will get as many choices as there are posters for a question like this. I use Analysis Plus cables and cannot complain about them at all. But I also don't have many comparison points either.

 

RE: Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies, posted on January 27, 2016 at 18:06:01
jllaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: May 27, 2002
Contributor
  Since: May 2, 2007
 I have Nordost Frey on my 3.6R's.

 

RE: Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies, posted on January 28, 2016 at 01:32:48
berni
Audiophile

Posts: 184
Joined: May 30, 2011
 I am using Analysis plus Solo Crystal Oval 8 on my MG20.1 with great results.
Due to its different layout(oval, with core,being a pretty dick one) it has the best from both types of cable(solid for bass and stranded for clarity).

 

some of my best over the years have been DIY, posted on January 28, 2016 at 05:09:20
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 pure silver, cat-5, belden, all at a fraction of the cost.









 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on January 28, 2016 at 17:31:04
dumpingground
Audiophile

Posts: 256
Joined: February 23, 2011
 I have some 18 AWG solid core magwire on the way to try. However, my speakers are some distance from my equipment area which is in the next room. My speaker wire needs to run about 35 feet. I bi amp with a PLLXO so I have a separate run for the tweeter and bass panels from my amps. Currently I use Belden 1309A 14 AWG stranded speaker wire.

Given that I have upto 35 ft runs. I am thinking of taking the magwire and creating a star quad configuration (similar to Canare 4S11) so that I can have a 18 AWG + 18 AWG pair twist for the positive plus a 18 AWG + 18 AWG pair twist for the negative with those two pair twists then twisted together. This will yield about a effective 15 AWG twisted pair total for each run. Given I bi-amp, I will need two of these star quads runs for each speaker.

Is this the best approach for L and C given the distance?

My current 18 awg star quad concept will require more wire then I have on the way. (35ft x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 560 ft) So I will ultimately need more wire purchased. Should I consider purchasing larger or smaller gauge magwire? Trying different gauge wire for tweeter vs bass panels? Since I am running the wire between rooms and drop ceilings. Creating parallel wires tape separated is not really feasible. I need some sort of twist to keep the bundle together.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on January 28, 2016 at 18:28:09
neolith
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Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
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Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I don't claim to be a cable guru but from my understanding of the subject, star-quad for speaker cables is just a waste of copper. The star-quad reduces RFI but this is minimal for speaker cables and it will increase the capacitance which theoretically would attenuate the high frequency signal and might be a problem for some amps. I say theoretically since the cable length probably needs to exceed 50 meters or more for any significant attenuation. Personally, I would just use single runs of 16 AWG or perhaps 16 for the mid-tweeter and 14 for the woofer. You could place a RC network across the tweeter to reduce RFI if that is a concern.
You might want to post on the Cable forum to get some other opinions. Personally I think those guys are whacko but I am sure they would think I'm a troglodyte.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies, posted on January 28, 2016 at 18:44:09
rwiley
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Southeast
Joined: February 20, 2001
 I can recommend Supra 3.4s (shielded) for the Maggies. I've been using them now for several months with my 1.6's and remain impressed and pleased with their performance. There are also two unshielded versions (3.4 & 3.4W).

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on January 28, 2016 at 18:51:01
dumpingground
Audiophile

Posts: 256
Joined: February 23, 2011
 My reason for star-quad is it seemed like a good way to twist two pairs of 18 AWG together for + and then for - so that I would increase the overall AWG of the run and keep the bundle managable as it runs thru my walls.

I was concerned that 18 AWG was not a large enough gauge to run 35 feet.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 1, 2016 at 18:48:49
rangerdave
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Joined: February 26, 2014
 Sorry, I'm a little late on this post, but I concur with Bernie. The Analysis Plus solo crystal oval 8 works very well with my 20.1's. I have used 4 or 5 others over the years and have had no inclination to change since I got these cables about 5 years ago.

RD

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 1, 2016 at 21:59:50
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I think a single twisted pair run for the mid/tweeter will do fine.

I don't think the aggregate 15AWG of the star quad is quite enough. I would go to a double of that at least (4 twisted pairs half of each carrying one pole). Particularly with your long distances.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 2, 2016 at 05:14:45
dumpingground
Audiophile

Posts: 256
Joined: February 23, 2011
 Thanks satie,

just to clarify, you think a single 18 AWG twisted pair is ok for the tweeter. but you recommend 4 twisted pairs (12 AWG equivalent) for the bass side of the biamp?

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 2, 2016 at 07:20:18
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Yes, I am thinking that you can get away with just the one 18AWG twisted pair for mid/tweeter. If you want to be sure then you can double them up since reinstallation into the wall is a PITA so if you were off in too little metal then you would have to do it over.

I do suggest that a 12 gauge equivalent for the bass section wire is the minimal thickness. In my own setup where I am driving Tympani bass panels to below 20hz and play loud I increased the thickness till I got no improvement in performance when going from 8 gauge to 6 gauge. My runs are only less than half as long as yours.

I recently learned that the Cardas Golden Reference is 3.5 gauge so this is not outlandish.

I suspect it has to do with damping (factor) as the difference between 10 gauge to 8 gauge while passive biamping was minimal if not indistinguishable while it was rather obvious with the active crossover particularly when I took out the infrasonic filter.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 3, 2016 at 00:16:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I agree except for ONE minor point.
If the crossover is near the 50:50 power point of about 350hz, than I'd say to use the SAME size wire for both runs.
At some high or low frequency when the power ratio from hi:lo or lo:hi is 30:70 or so, THAN I'd go with heavier wire on the side which needs more power.
My Panels cross at 600 and I run identical but only 4' runs to each 'side'. In an ideal setup, I could see needing only 2' per run which might make 'what wire?' a moot point.
That's a total of 16'/4=4ft per run.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 3, 2016 at 10:11:41
Norman M
 Many have probably already seen this, but if not enjoy. Long ago it was established that no differences could be heard when using a variety of different speaker wires:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQDTZcpsDE

 

RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 5, 2016 at 03:45:30
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I recommend using Goertz ribbon speaker cables or another manufacturer of ribbon cables (if there are any). You can also make your own pretty easily from flat foil that you can by from Mundorf or Jensen (inductor coils...you can easily unwind them).

Do not use large gauge solid core wire like Anti-cable. It is good for bass but terrible for the highs. A flat ribbon from Goertz will be just as large gauge (for bass) but being flat you don't have the skin effect problems. Also, the low inductance is good for HF extension.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 5, 2016 at 14:01:54
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Why is solid copper wire bad for high frequencies?

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 5, 2016 at 19:38:39
Davey
 It's not. Skin effect is irrelevant at audio frequencies.

Many people are using solid-core cable successfully. If it sounds terrible it's because of some other reason than skin effect. Inductance would need to be really high and/or a cable really long for a low-pass filter into the audio band to be created.
A ten foot chunk of typical parallel cable (solid or stranded) has an inductance of probably 2-3uH total. With a four ohm load that's a low-pass filter with -3db frequency above 200kHz.
If speaker wire had that much inductance people wouldn't be noticing the benefits of the 10uH choke tweak that Al Sekela advocated years back.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 6, 2016 at 12:00:07
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Dave,

What are the draw backs of using stranded copper speaker cables?

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 6, 2016 at 15:09:21
Davey
 Compared to solid?
None. All other things being equal.

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 6, 2016 at 15:37:00
morricab
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Posts: 9175
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 Listen to Davey if you want but I promise you will not get the most from your system. Flat ribbon cables deliver better sound stage and cleaner highs than I have heard with any wire based cable, except perhaps a construction like Nordost uses, with clearly separated and isolated small diameter solid cores (mostly air dielectric too...clever design). Many think that multistrand is about the worst option. Now for interconnects, where the wire doesn't need to be large at all (according to the late Allen Wright the thinner the better) , a thin wire can compete with a ribbon. However, even then the ribbon usually wins as the sound is again cleaner in the highs and better organized.

I suggest trying to get a hold of Allen Wright's cable cook book. He explains it in detail. Davey will try to tell you its bunk but there is solid theory around it, including the dielectric!

I had both of Allen's designs, the ribbon and wire interconnects. Both were good but the ribbon was clearly better with spatial organization and lack of "interstitial" noises that you don't even notice until they are gone. I found the same with the ribbon speaker cables.

A friend of mine tried my Goertz and found the sound to be less lively in the highs but really it had just cleaned up the highs. Everything was there just fine and organize but less "fizzy" sounding. Most of my friends have now switched over after comparing to their old wire cables.

Of course you can make your own as well, it is a bit tedious but I know guys in Holland doing this to great success for their Apogees. I say ribbons for ribbons but really I think ribbons for all speakers are superior.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 6, 2016 at 15:58:56
Davey
 "Davey will try to tell you it's bunk" regarding Allen Wright's cook book? I said NOTHING about Allen Wright or even ribbon cables.

I only mentioned typical parallel cable and I cited a specific example.....which I have actually measured for parameters to confirm. So, it's not just theory.

Don't EVER put words in my mouth again Brad! I'm getting damn tired of it.

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 7, 2016 at 05:18:43
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 If you look at cableorganizer.com,flat copper 14 or 12 ga flat speaker cable is not that expensive.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 7, 2016 at 08:09:54
Davey
 Cost is not the issue I was alluding to.

Brad's subjective evaluations and hearsay are not persuasive to me at all. I'm simply highlighting the basic LCR interaction...regardless of cost.
The audiophile evaluation method can assign all sorts of conclusions to various things.....usually based on speculation.
"Ribbons for ribbons" is just rhetorical nonsense and does nothing to remove the cloud of confusion surrounding cables and their objective performance.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 7, 2016 at 12:51:39
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Flat wire ultra-flat audio cable comes in 14 and 12 AWG.It may be good for DIY speaker cables.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 8, 2016 at 01:48:40
morricab
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Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
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 Davey, you said:

"Many people are using solid-core cable successfully. If it sounds terrible it's because of some other reason than skin effect. Inductance would need to be really high and/or a cable really long for a low-pass filter into the audio band to be created."

This is only true if the solid core is very thin. Thick stuff like used by Anti-cable for speaker cable is not thin. If you have read and/or accept the arguments in Allen's book then you would not make such a statement.

"A ten foot chunk of typical parallel cable (solid or stranded) has an inductance of probably 2-3uH total." Here, you make it clear that you don't think the typical solid core offers any benefit over stranded. Allen would disagree vehmently.

Allen's book makes it clear why stranded (without insulation of some kind) is bad. Again you contradict his book. That is fine if you don't agree with his theories or book I wasn't commenting on this.

I didn't put any words in your mouth, Davey. I took what you were claiming vs. what is in Allen's cable cookbook and by putting 2 and 2 together predicting what you would likely think about it. Your numbers don't take into account what is known about signal transmission theory...it is not just what's IN the wire it is also the field around the wire.

Allen advocated cables that were all either super thin solid core enameled wire or super thin ribbon and always silver. I have never heard a good copper cable that competes with good silver cables. I have had exact same constructions with the two different metals and it is always obviously silver that is superior for max information retrieval...despite the only about 6% greater electrical conductivity. His philosophy for speaker cables was the same, although you have to have a minimum size for current carrying purposes.

BTW, Allen's main speakers at home were Apogee Scintillas...ribbons for ribbons.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 8, 2016 at 01:52:53
morricab
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Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
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 I would go even thinner on the Mid/tweeter. Use mulitple runs of a finer gauge of the magnet wire. Thinner is always better for high frequencies. Try to minimize inductance as well. Better still would be some flat ribbon cables for the mid/highs. Keep the larger solid core wire for the bass panel.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 8, 2016 at 10:16:57
InfinityApogee
Audiophile

Posts: 237
Location: Sk
Joined: February 14, 2014
 I have high end cables, just have them around to impress friends, all my working cables are 12ga ohno copper, if there is a difference in sound I can't hear it. I also tried the cat5 trip and heard no real difference either. For me it's a waste a money, but maybe some can hear in the dog zone :)
Al

 

RE: Preferred Speaker Cables for Maggies, posted on February 8, 2016 at 14:48:47
Markeneret
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 2, 2010
 I used to have Nordost and MIT cables in my 1.6 Linn system. After 30 days of rigid experimentation, I found the Speltz Anti-Cables to outperform these cables that cost over 20 times the price.

The bottom line : the anti cables (once broken in) had more transparent highs, quicker bass and pinpoint imaging.

Count me as a huge skeptic. I was trying to track down an edginess in the highs. Tried tube preamps, passive line pre's and cables. It was actually the Linn pre amp ( no slouch performer BTW). But in the process I was astounded to find that these dirt-cheap 12ga solid core cables sounded better than my fancy $$$ cables !
"I see sound waves"

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 8, 2016 at 15:11:37
Davey
 Quit parroting a silly cable cookbook. His (expensive) book wasn't taken seriously when he was alive and it isn't now. (I round-filed it a long time ago.)
Quit taking the word of some cable shyster and get yourself some test equipment and start doing your own cable measurements. You'll find it instructive and enlightening.

As usual, you've mischaracterized my statements. It's just tiresome at this point.
Eventually you'll HAVE to start thinking about audio equipment with much more objective brain cells. I hope that day comes soon.

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 8, 2016 at 15:25:30
InfinityApogee
Audiophile

Posts: 237
Location: Sk
Joined: February 14, 2014
 I've been tempted to try the Spletz cables a few times, watching for a used set.
Al

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 9, 2016 at 04:39:17
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
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 Allen was many things but a shyster he was not. His cables and other products were the real deal.

What would you like me to measure Dave? L? C? R? Whoo hooo! I own Goertz ribbon cables and they have the lowest L in the business. Wireworld also thinks a low L and low R is more important than C. What would work best in your opinion?

I do believe in measurements but not as they are often used by design engineers. I am a scientist who is looking for real information in the measurments (take amplifier distortion for example...there are lot of reasons you were not right in an earlier discussion regarding amps and they are all technical and objective).

At the end of the day though you cannot be 100% objective about audio because at the end of the day the final aribiter is the listener and they are decidely NOT objective measurements. How the objective correlates with the subjective seems to be the area where you come across as distinctly uncomfortable and fall back into the "the numbers say it can't be so!!"


"As usual, you've mischaracterized my statements."

Please give detailed examples where I have mischaracterized your statements. I have simply taken what you have said and contrasted this against what a well respected cable/preamp/amp designer I knew personally and had experience with his products has said about cable design. What he said held up in his products and what you have said goes against the experiences and some theories of others.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 9, 2016 at 07:58:08
Davey
 "Please give detailed examples where I have mischaracterized your statements. I have simply taken what you have said and contrasted this against what a well respected cable/preamp/amp designer I knew personally and had experience with his products has said about cable design. What he said held up in his products and what you have said goes against the experiences and some theories of others."

You just did it again! You characterized me as being 100% objective about audio. I believe in objective evaluation, but I have NEVER claimed there isn't a subjective aspect. The percentage ratio is the item in question. Are you really that dense that you don't even recognize these mischaracterizations when you apply them?? Good golly man.

A scientist with the amount of dichotomy that you exhibit is not the type of person I would want designing any products....or drugs....that I might consume. I'm glad audio is only a hobby for you.

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 9, 2016 at 08:05:50
Davey
 I see nothing wrong with those cables at all.....other than the obvious flexibility issue. Many folks have noted excellent performance with them.

But regardless, those can be DIY'd easily at a much lower cost than purchasing from Paul.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 9, 2016 at 14:01:28
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "You just did it again! You characterized me as being 100% objective about audio. I believe in objective evaluation, but I have NEVER claimed there isn't a subjective aspect. The percentage ratio is the item in question. Are you really that dense that you don't even recognize these mischaracterizations when you apply them?? Good golly man.
"
Did what again? I didn't say you were 100% objectivist...read the statement again. The "you" there is a general statement...I could have replaced this with "one" and it would mean the same thing. But, you are clearly more in the objectivist camp or is that also mischaracterizing you as well?? I don't hear anything from you about listening and how that correlates with measurements. If you go back and read a lot of my posts you will see that I bang that gong pretty hard.

"A scientist with the amount of dichotomy that you exhibit is not the type of person I would want designing any products....or drugs....that I might consume. "

dichotomy?? There is no dichotomy Mr. Davey. I am about as pure a scientist as you are likely to find. One of the first principles of science is observation and the use of such to form hypothesis and then attempt to disprove them. I do nothing more and nothing less. I take measurements and try to see how they apply to what is observed (aka. listening) that for me is the final frontier of audio. You seem to forget that audio is not like a lot of other sciences because it involves a direct human response that has to be considered rather than ignored in the pursuit of a theoretical "ideal" of measurements.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 10, 2016 at 05:28:59
morricab
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 I don't know what you mean exactly by having "high end cables" around just to impress your friends...my friends are not really impressed by cables but if yours are it is good that you can oblige them.

I use copper ribbon speaker cables made by Goertz. These work better than most else i have tried (I can hear quite a difference) and were not very expensive. Getting the same thing in Silver would be a substantial cost increase though.

Interestingly, I have found that it has not so much to do with the the highest frequencies (dog zone as you put it) but in texture and control of bass, soundstage/imaging and orderliness of the whole sound structure. Many cables sound noisy or "fizzy" in the highs and I found that flat ribbons clean this up nicely and that has a knock on effect for the imaging/soundstaging, improving it significantly. Also, my Goertz are the equivalent copper of a 10 gauge wire, so bass is ultra solid.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 10, 2016 at 08:50:27
Swamis Cat
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 Has anyone ever clearly proven they are able to hear differences in double blind tests between reasonably well designed, appropriate-length/diameter cables? I am under the impression the answer to this question is no, so I am not sure what this discussion is about.

If some people (indeed if even one person) could hear the difference, it would be a simple process to prove it beyond any doubt. Does such a proof exist that I am unaware of?

I don't mean to get a debate on the issue here, but I would really appreciate the link to the proven research that X was able to consistently hear differences between cable Y and Z in a scientifically valid, objectively repeatable test.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 10, 2016 at 09:25:31
Davey
 There's a reason why I don't bang my gong with subjective evaluations. If you were paying attention fifteen years ago on the Apogee forum, you'd know the reason why. :) I haven't changed my evaluation of (other people's) subjective evaluation in many decades.

Anyways, you can bang your gong all you want. :)

Dave.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 10, 2016 at 10:01:13
Davey
 With the right combination of cables and source/load characteristics audible differences could easily be identified with blind testing. Many cables are designed specifically to sound different in order to differentiate their subjective performance from other alternatives. But it's not hand-waving cable magic as some audiophiles would have you believe. :)
Luckily, in most cases, the "right combination" doesn't exist in most users audio systems and audible cable differences are minimal.

There's a reason why so many people are in the audiophile cable business. It's easy money. :)
Cables are the high-profit center of typical audio salons.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 10, 2016 at 12:22:53
Satie
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Posts: 5426
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 I prepared a 12 gauge and a 14 gauge set of ribbon speaker cables and never got to try them since I changed amps and moved them around so that the preparation project never caught on to the required length and freq range coverage. I did try them once hsortly but they were not broken in. Sounded promising but still not a step change up from what I was using before or after.

Project is still on the agenda but it is covering only 2.5-3 ft of length, think it will make much of a difference at that limited length?

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 10, 2016 at 14:48:42
dumpingground
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 I received my red and green magnet wire spools. two spools each 18 AWG by 100 feet.

I had enough wire to make a single 50ft length quad star (1 2x18AWG twist red + 1 2x18AWG twist green then twisted together)

Maybe not a full test, but I hooked up the one magwire assembly to one of my tweeter panels on the left speaker only. I used the left/right balance to switch from my left (magwire) to my right (14 AWG belden brillance 1309A speaker wire) while playing music. The bass panels on both were connected with the belden wire.

I focused on listening for differences in the highs. At least for my hearing and with this limited setup, I was not able to hear much of a difference. At least not enough of a difference to warrant buying more wire and building a complete biamp set and running it thru the walls.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 10, 2016 at 21:09:07
Davey
 Your twisting scheme doesn't sound like star-quad to me.
But regardless, you have an effective 15 gauge cable with properties not dissimilar to your Belden cable. I wouldn't expect to hear much of a difference.

Your twisted result was probably very stiff and horrible to deal with though eh? :)

The Belden cable is just fine, IMO. I use some of that myself.

Dave.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 11, 2016 at 01:17:20
morricab
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 You are using such short lengths that it should work fine. Of course the purity of the metal and the dielectric you are using will matter as well.

The sonic advantages are not ones that jump out and grab you and throw you around the room. It is main a calmness to the sound and ordering that makes things feel more solid. Also, less HF hashiness that you might not even notice until its gone. This leads to a more convincing soundstage I found. Of course there are also really good wire cables out there so it also depends a bit on what you are using now how significant the difference is.

I found rather large improvements with interconnects once I went to silver ribbon interconnects. I don't want to spend the big $$ on silver speaker cables though. I found the Silver ribbons were a rather large improvement on copper ones for interconnects.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 11, 2016 at 01:19:20
morricab
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 " If you were paying attention fifteen years ago on the Apogee forum, you'd know the reason why. :) "

Like I remember what was said on the Apogee forum 15 years ago. Most of the guys there had no idea how to get really great sound from those amazing speakers anyway...

 

Interesting you say that., posted on February 11, 2016 at 06:39:18
grantv
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 I prefer the old thinner gauge anti-cables over the new thicker runs. Bigger isn't necessarily better IMO...

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 11, 2016 at 06:46:11
Davey
 Yeah, but you did. Ha!
Classic.

Dave.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 11, 2016 at 11:02:09
Swamis Cat
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Posts: 272
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 Thanks Dave!

Just to replay to make sure I get it... Are you saying that with properly chosen mismatches between sources and loads the differences between cables would be so obvious that there is no need to validate it with double blind listening tests? If so, why is there any remaining controversy over whether there are any differences at all between cables? Or are you also saying that wires are specifically made to sound different and therefore most will actually sound different to at least some discriminating listeners? Or are you saying both? Neither?

Is there a good reference article objectively delineating when people can and can't tell the difference? (This question is of course open to everyone's not the forum -- if anyone knows of any well designed experiments which clearly reveal when certain groups of listeners can and can't tell the difference between similar gauge and length cables I would LOVE to read it)

Thanks!

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 12, 2016 at 02:22:13
morricab
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 We were able to demonstrate it with single blind tests...we didn't have the equipment to do double blind.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 12, 2016 at 07:18:05
Satie
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 Double blind and ABX tests are UN SCIENCE. They ignore the requirements of human cognition. The typical questions to the listener are "is it different"? "Is one better"? These are nonsensical as that is never what we listen for. The answers are "I don't care" and "better at what"? respectively. Garbage in and garbage out.

We are not oscilloscopes. We are observers over time. .If you had a bunch of test data without any indication of which product you measured and under what conditions would you be able to say if the products are different?, much less determine which is "better" at anything?

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 12, 2016 at 09:03:28
Swamis Cat
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 Thanks for the replies Moricab and Satie,

Is there a link to the objective review on single blind, Moricab? I would really like to see when some listeners can and can't distinguish differences or preferences.

Satie, if the differences between cables are clear and obvious, then a blind test could be designed to try to quantify the differences. You and I could easily design the test.

You may be right that blind tests are unable to differentiate the cables, but that longer range experience would reveal differences and preferences. But that would itself be an extremely revealing empirical finding (and would still contradict 90% of all cable and power cord reviews I have read). Here are some potential hypotheses which are testable:

1). Differences between cables are obvious to everyone in blind listening tests
2). Differences between sufficiently different cable types/technologies/constructions are obvious to a limited group of extremely attentive listeners in blind listening tests (some people can differentiate some cables)
3). Differences between cables or cable types are not statistically identifiable in blind tests to anyone yet discovered
4). Same as three but some are still objectively able to distinguish differences over time through extensive listening

I assume Moricab believes 2 to be true, and possibly Dave does as well. I encourage both to set me straight. From your response I assume you are leaning more toward 4. Again, I am not sure though.





 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 12, 2016 at 10:09:52
Satie
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 It is beneficial to hide the commercial name and appearance of the items you are evaluating and providing each with a different generic label. Then let them play what they need to so as to learn the characteristics of each item. Then ask how do they differ on a set of characteristics. Do not ask just "are they different" and definitely don't ask if one is generally "better" unless there is a clear superiority in most or all the characteristics, as the personal preference of the balance of characteristics is what you would get as an answer and that is useless to anybody else.

The resolving capabilities of the equipment and good matching are also very significant to the results you would get. Well executed stats and ribbon or ring radiator diamond or thin VD beryllium tweeters are usually key requirements for having a chance at making clear observations. Planar low mass midranges like BGs help too. E.g. using JBL centuries stock I didn't care enough about the differences between zip cord, monstercable basic and DNM cables. With Yamaha NS1000 Berylium tweeters the differences were very obvious, very much more so with my own RtoR recordings.As far as appearances went, the zipcord was least obtrusive and the other cables looked distinctly ugly. As to audio jewelry I tend to view it as lipstick on a pig. It is still a box or a cable..

 

DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 12, 2016 at 22:01:02
paul3
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Posts: 253
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 Had enough lying around to make a 5.5' pair this afternoon. I've been using WE "cult wire," MIT 750, Grover Huffman, and 10 AWG Blue Jeans Belden speaker cables.

They all sound good-different but good. The magnet wire is smoother, fuller, and a bit "punchier" than the WE. I could live happily with any of them- the magnet wire is by far the most economical. It's fun to experiment. I'm next going to double, triple, or maybe quadruple up some 20AWG magnet wire. At this point, if I had to choose one pair, it would be the magnet wire.

Interconnects are Grover Huffman.

As an extreme contrast to the cost of the 30' of magnet wire, and the rest of the cables I've tried, was some $5000/pr. cable I "heard" at an audition of Magnepan 1.7's at a local high-end store. The salesman said they also had speaker cable costing about $35K which, he said, made the 1.7's sound even better.

Of course they did. :)

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 14, 2016 at 19:55:59
Satie
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Posts: 5426
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 If you are doing the multirun cable then follow JBen's recipe for multirun multigauge magwire ribbon cables. He pretty much optimized it so it will save you time and trouble building your wires.

 

Me too, I have the Frey, posted on February 14, 2016 at 22:15:31
jllaudio
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Contributor
  Since: May 2, 2007
 Nordost Frey connected to my 3.6R's. I have tried the Anti-Cables (bi-wire) and ended up switching back and forth with the Frey and found I like the Frey better.

 

RE: Me too, I have the Frey, posted on February 15, 2016 at 09:58:38
Satie
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 Can you point to particular characteristics of one cable set vs the other that swayed you one way or the other?

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 15, 2016 at 12:44:01
Norman M
 Opthamologists/optometrists, etc. do this type of thing all the time, and if you use corrective lenses, that's why you wear the ones you have.

I always get asked "better now or better now"? Is there any reason this can't be done with speaker wires and listening (rather than ears and sound)?

Perhaps this also in fact applies to hearing aid evaluations. (My eye MD once even to play a little trick me up, making the switching noises but not the lenses.

Given young listeners with outstanding hearing ability, I don't believe they could consistently conclude which is the 'better' wire. And allow it to be in the same sense of 'better' as in choosing corrective lenses (and no matter how any 'lawyer' here tries to 'worm' their way out.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 15, 2016 at 14:33:34
Satie
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 That is because what is tested is your performance with the hearing aid or glasses, You are highlighting what is exactly my point. It is not a test of the equipment being evaluated it is a test of the listener. Guess what, we don't give a hoot about the listener, we care about the equipment's performance.The other issue is that you are evaluating very particular sensory perception not anything as esoteric as what we audiophiles listen for.

A friend with hearing aids has gained a bit of an audiophile superpower able to easily distinguish cables and various digital data transmission schemes, DLNA and pull protocols from the NAS vs. USB push and even DoP on SPDIF vs native DSD on USB.

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 15:51:53
paul3
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Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
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 All I have on hand at the moment is 20 AWG magnet wire, so I made a 5' pair and hooked 'em up a few minutes ago. No twisting, just two wires per speaker. Initial impression is increased clarity- "air" in audiospeak. My golden-eared wife noticed it immediately. It'll be interesting if the sound changes once the system settles in. I'll also experiment with adding a second 20 gauge wire on the + side of each speaker. FYI, power is a couple of fairly hefty mono tube amps-4 KT88 each.

The amps are close to the MMG's and I probably could make the cables 2.5'. Hmmmm....

Love these kinds of tweaks, cost me nothing but an hour of my time. The magnet wire was purchased years ago for only a few bux. This board is a great place to hang out.
Thanks to all.

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 16:06:20
pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
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 Just my opinion, but the Cost / Benefit curve MUST flatten out somewhere shy of 35,000$ for speaker cable.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 16:56:58
Norman M
 If a listener auditioned a bunch of cables (using Maggies of course) and purchased the one he/she likes best, then he should be able to pick that one out from a bunch of cables (which have not been identified,) and not in a random fashion. Isn't there a probability (P) test for the its result. 'Better'/'not better' when compared to a standard, such as reproduced sound vs. an actual live performance. Certainly one should expect that cable 'X' can do it better than 'Y', or that during an audition the listener decided that for his pleasure or expectations, 'X' performed better than 'Y' (being the reason behind its purchase).
I'd enjoy being a witness to such a test, and being among the first to admit being wrong (if that be the case).

I'd also like to witness a test of the performance of Maggie's stainless steel jumpers (when compared to a Cardas or whatever made jumper).

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 17:18:35
paul3
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Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Even if I had unlimited discretionary funds I'd never spend what I consider to be "crazy money" on speaker cables. I don't spend crazy money on NOS tubes because a good tube sounds good as long as it is musical.

I'm also not interested in blind or double, triple-blind, etc. cable evaluations. To my mind, those kinds of "tests" are sort of like smelling perfumes or cologne. After 2 or 3, you can't tell the difference.

The reason I could definitely tell the difference between the 12 AWG magnet wire and the 20 AWG is because I swapped the latter for the former quickly. My wife was able to discern it from an adjacent room. Are either of them the "best" of the cables I've used with my MMGs? I really don't care- I'm just trying to have some fun without spending more than a few bux.

Ultimately, what matters most to me is the music. I could happily listen to my Maggies no matter what speaker cable I was using. The biggest improvement was doing the half-razor when I was repairing the delaminated wires.

Another thing: I recently sold a pair of highly-regarded 3-way floor standing speakers because they simply did not sound good in my small, dedicated audio room. The latest version of those speakers are priced approximately @ 10K. My $300 pair of MMGs provide infinitely more listening satisfaction that the speakers I sold.

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 18:12:46
pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
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 Well Stated:
Too much is never enough

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 18:20:51
pictureguy
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 This is one of those pseudo DBT situationw which is REALLY one of those third rail issues. I did experimental design and execution as part of my job duties for several years. I wouldn't touch this with a 10 meter pole.

as for the Jumpers? I made a set better than what Magnepan issued out of 6gauge copper HOUSE WIRE. The jumpers that came with my 1.6s were magnetic. I suspect they were chrome plated steel. 6ga is slightly larger than the jumper diameter so I had to (using 400 SiC sandpaper) spin 'em down to the correct size. 6ga is 0.162" in diameter and the jumpers were (IIRC) about 0.155" or so.
Some Stainless Alloys are magnetic, but don't hold me down for which ones!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 18:46:44
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 You can probably swap the tubes to KT120. Get more heft and clarity. I have yet to find a KT88 KT90 6550 that matches up to the KT120. Most KT88 amps can handle them.

I think the 20 gauge is going to be a bit thin sounding on its own. Try a ribbon of 4 parallel per polarity. Gets you closer to the aggregate gauge from which moremetal isnot goingto make a difference with your amp.

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 15, 2016 at 20:02:26
paul3
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Posts: 253
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Joined: January 2, 2015
 Satie:
Thank you for your words. I've been curious about 120 tubes- you've motivated me to educated myself.

So far the single 20 AWG are nicer for "air" and detail- but yes, as you say, "a bit thin." My next experiment is to add a single 20AWG wire on the +side.

Electrical engineers and scientists everywhere, I ask you to indulge me. :)

 

RE: Me too, I have the Frey, posted on February 15, 2016 at 20:21:15
jllaudio
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 Satie, it was kind of hard to describe. I had bi-wired anti-cables and non bi-wire Frey. It's kind of hard for me to describe, what caused me to like the Frey better.
It seemed for my ears that the Frey was a little mellower on the top end and I liked the mids better.

 

Cable Cooker, posted on February 16, 2016 at 03:00:51
tedtag
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Posts: 43
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 I had heard great feedback about the Audiokarma Cable Cooker so I bought one. First up was the full Shunyata/ Audience cable loom on my main system which includes a 4m pair of speaker cables, a 2m pair of preamp to amp interconnects and 3 pair of 1m interconnects from TT to SUT to phono preamp to preamp. I cooked these all at the same time for 4 days and probably overcooked the interconnects but understood from the instructions that they would be OK after playing for a while.

I'll defer from using a bunch of superlatives but after several hours and once everything settled in, there was a dramatic difference and all for the better. A film of glaze that I was not aware of was completely removed. There was a more tactile presentation where I felt like I could almost reach out and touch the images. Dynamics were sharper, tonality and textures were richer, and music was much more enjoyable.

Next up is the tonearm cable inside the tonearm. Alan Kaftan, the manufacturer, created a really cool attachment to hook up the cartridge leads to a DIN connection to form a loop into the cooker. My expectations for that are extremely high, considering that tonearm cables never fully break in because of the low voltages they carry. The point for this thread being that until I cooked my cables I had no idea how good they could really sound.

 

RE: Cable Cooker, posted on February 16, 2016 at 09:09:05
jllaudio
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 I had the Frey in 1st for over a year and wanted to see if bi-wire would make a difference to my Maggie 3.6R's. I bought anti-cables due to affordability and some experience I had with Speltz's products (Zero-boxes).

I had the anti-cables in for more than 10 months before I switched back, so there was plenty of burn in time.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 16, 2016 at 12:34:11
morricab
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 Sadly, I never actually reported it as a think piece or a review...wish I had now but on the other hand it would have been given a lot S#)T from the scientific politically correct. All, I will say is it was satisfying to me as the listeners (4 in total) were nearly 100% correct in choosing between 4 different interconnects design types (telling ribbon vs. wire) and like 80% correct telling between specific cables. We had 2 wire and 2 ribbon...all using solid silver construction. A copper wire cable would have probably stood out like a sore thumb in this group.

The wire vs. ribbon though made by far the biggest difference in this single blind test...the ribbon interconnects had far better decoding of space and relations of performers in space. It simply made more sense and the bass was meatier and more solid.

Anyway the gear at the time was my Silvaweld SWC1000 preamp and Sphinx project 14 amp. We were changing between amp and preamp then DAC and preamp.

 

RE: Anti-cables..., posted on February 16, 2016 at 12:37:12
morricab
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 Interconnect cables were relatively easy to hide because the gear was in a rack so the players were behind the rack.

I agree about the speaker resolution. Good ribbons or stats or horns are usually essential. My Ref 3as were not too bad at showing differences too as they were upgraded with Be tweeters and the midrange is quite revealing with them. That said my Odeon horns are quite close to what I used to get from my Acoustat Spectras but with a more front row live Jazz kind of feel.

 

RE: Cable Cooker, posted on February 16, 2016 at 19:37:07
Satie
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 I had my friend cook his MIT cables on an 8 ohm dummy load - it took weeks for the sound to stabilize. It went from sounding like multiple overlays of the same music to being solid, clear, tonally balanced, and very detailed. Imaging was really improved from utterly weird to very realistic.

 

RE: Cable Cooker, posted on February 17, 2016 at 15:40:39
tedtag
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Location: Southeast US
Joined: May 1, 2015



I sort of learned the hard way about over cooking. Had the whole loom on there for 4 days because I forgot about it! Apparently the recommended time is 2 days for interconnects, 3 days for speaker cables, and 4 days for power cords, but its trial and error. Its supposed to be better to cook in 12 hour intervals and then stop and try them until they sound "just right." Now that sounds like a lot of work and how do you really know when to stop? Even with over cooking, my interconnects were fine and sounding fantastic after playing about 4 to 5 hours of music through them. I'm going to do the tonearm on Friday for about 30 hours per Alan's suggestion, and report back. Thanks Satie.

 

RE: RIbbons for ribbons, posted on February 18, 2016 at 18:15:43
beautox
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 +1 for copper foil cables. I use 70mm wide mundorf foils, bonded together and they are considerably better than anti-cables (I used to resell that for years but no longer) and kimber 8tc, solid core cat5, etc. Startlingly so.

I've made dozens of diy speaker designs over the years, and so far the foil ones are by far the best.

 

Re. ribbon cables?, posted on February 18, 2016 at 19:57:13
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Thinking of the resulting 'L' and 'C' of a ribbon speaker cable, due to the close proximity of the 2 foils:
* L is obviously very low - which makes them good for speaker cable
* but C is high.

Now, one poster wrote about using 70mm wide inductor foil for DIY speaker cables. The width obviously affects the overall X-sectional guage of the cable (so the resistance) - but do you know whether it influences L or C?

In particular, for the same length, would a 70mm wide ribbon cable have more capacitance than a speaker cable made from 30mm wide foil?


Thanks,

Andy

 

RE: Re. ribbon cables?, posted on February 19, 2016 at 06:44:20
Satie
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Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

you can calculate the capacitance of the ribbon from the surface area W X L and compare it to that of commercial cables.

Note that the multi insulated conductor ribbon cables have similar capacitance to ribbons relative to single wire shotguns or coax or twinax. for a speaker cable we would be comparing 100s of pF on the ribbon to low 10s of pF on a single wire pair.


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on February 19, 2016 at 08:17:59
morricab
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 Try ribbons by taking apart a foil inductor. You get thin "air" and clarity with thick wire grunt.

 

RE: OK, you ..., posted on February 19, 2016 at 12:40:32
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
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 can get the area from the length and width - so obviously increased width does cause the capacitance to increase. Which is what I wanted to know. :-))

But what is the 'permittivity' of the material insulating the two foils? I presume one would use what we call 'Gladwrap' or 'cling wrap' to do this? And the separation would be what ... say, 0.01mm?


Andy

 

RE: OK, you ..., posted on February 19, 2016 at 19:27:42
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 It is the dielectric constant, the word just isn't in fashion in science at the moment.

The thickness of the dielectric you will need to get from the film manufacturer, there are tables of dielectric constants and you can use the one for polyethylene for glad wrap. Plenty of other low value materials from PET acrylic and polyimides to teflon. Generally you want the lowest constant for SQ purposes,
The operating voltage limits how thin the dielectric layer can be - the dielectric strength (Eds) of Polyprop is like 21 kv/mm while Kapton (wire wrap) is 400 and enamel (magwire) is 70 Teflon is up to 200 and polyimides 400-500- lower Eds means thicker dielectric needed for a given voltage rating (breakdown voltage) and more area for the same capacitance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Breakdown_voltage
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=190313&aid=11801

 

RE: Thanks, Satie. nt, posted on February 19, 2016 at 22:42:08
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

RE: DIY 12awg magnet wire proves to be excellent, posted on March 7, 2016 at 10:08:34
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Thanks, for the suggestion, Morricab. I've searched but am a bit confused about how to do this, and what kind of foil conductor would be best. Does one attach the foil to two lengths of tape for insulation and solder short connector wires to the ends?

 

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