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Magnepan 1.7 setup

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Posted on October 29, 2015 at 12:24:46
yemtig@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Location: New Mexico
Joined: October 21, 2015
 Just recently ordered a pair of Magnepan 1.7's and have been looking into how I want to setup my first system. I really think I want to go SS amp + tube pre-amp but this is not set in stone.... Here's what I'm thinking so far...

Amps

1). Parasound a21 amp-think I would buy new if I got one.
2). Parasound a23 amp-buy new but really not sure if I could get the most out of my magnepans with this amp.
3). Parasound integrated amp. Really want to keep separates so I can upgrade in the future but at the suggestion of another, wanted to throw this out there. Like the idea of having a 3rd channel if I wanted to add a sub at some point. Don't think I will, but you never know.
4). Came across a used in excellent condition Aragon 4004 MKII amp for $700. Reviews are good and these amps seem to like pairing with a tube pre-amp and have quite the following. This model has the power to drive my new magnepans.
5). Odyssey Stratos Mono/Stereo amplifiers. They dont list 4 ohms in their spec sheet. Need to investigate further.

I also came across a nice used Counterpoint SA 5.1 tube pre-amp + power supply listed as very good condition. Seller wanted $500 for it. This would allow me to get my foot in the door with only $1200 invested in pre and amp if I went with the Aragon 4004 MKII. Seems like a great deal and I have read lots of great reviews on this pre-amp.

I plan on using a dat player, along with a cd player. I also will be adding a turntable when funds replenish... haha. I assume that I will need a dac unit if I go with the above combo, and if I go with the parasound integrated, I get the best of both worlds... Pre-amp and dac and amp all in one package.... Also a third channel to add a sub if need be.

What do you guys think? I am somewhat leery of what questions I need to ask when looking at the cp tube pre-amp or in general when purchasing used gear. Any suggestions on what I would ask and your general opinion overall as to my direction on getting my first system setup. Any help is appreciated and I look forward to your responses.

Mike

 

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RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 29, 2015 at 13:03:28
digilog5
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: New York
Joined: December 5, 2010
 Congrats on the new purchase. I also own 1.7s.
I guess there are various good matches for the MG 1.7 often mentioned here.
I have not heard the pairings of the A21 or the Stratos with the MG but from what has been often mentioned around here they should match pretty well. I heard the smaller Odyssey Khartago mono's this year at the Axpona show and they were fantastic. I am sure the Stratos (preferably the mono's) would be great with the 1.7s. They can be upgraded too by Odyssey. If I were looking for monos and had space, that would be my first point to search. Since you mentioned Aragon - couple of years ago I also heard the new Aragon 8008 stereo which was very nicely done but it wasn't paired with MG's. Others might be able to chime in better, but one thing that needs to be researched upon would be impedance matching between any tube pre and power amp. For now I am quite happy using a W4S ST-500 but in the future I will be looking to upgrade path either towards mono's or something like a Hegel integrated.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 29, 2015 at 13:21:36
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The 4004 and Counterpoint pre are a nice combo and you can have very good results but the issue is their age and thus condition. Their repair history is the big deal.

Often a 4004 will hit the used market after a repair of a burnt transistor with an unmatched transistor(s) .That is never going to sound right.

Recaps - as a repair of an upgrade are a good thing, but they have to be with quality components. Modern mid priced electrolytic caps are far better then the older ones so can readily improve performance of power supplies. Film and foil caps have also improved but the upgrade has to be voiced well and to your taste. You need to get a handle on what the seller got done (if anything).

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 29, 2015 at 15:51:19
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Congratulations the 1.7i is a fantastic speaker.
I really like tubes for the pre and SS for the amp with Maggies. However if I was starting from scratch at this point, I would look real hard at the Emotive XSP-1 preamp. It's SS but has a sh-tload of features including phono (MM and MC) inputs, unbalanced (4) and balanced (2) inputs, balanced and unbalanced outputs, headphone jack, remote control, etc all for $800.
I second the W$4 ST-500 for the amp. I haven't listened to the others you mentioned, but they all have gotten good press on this forum.
A general guideline: 200-250 WPC at 8 ohms with ability to double down or nearly so at 4 ohms.
Save money on speaker cables - I am using magnet wire (16 AWG not 12 AWG like Speltz Anti-cables). I bought a 1/2# roll from Remington Industries for ~$10 plus. Lightly twisted pairs with plenty left over. Bare terminations.
Save money on the DAC as well. I download FLAC files and have converted some of my CDs to the same and placed on a hard drive. I convert the FLAC on the fly to DSD using JRiverMedia ($50 for license) and a Schiit Loki DSD DAC ($150). I tried converting FLAC to DSD and storing but the few files I did were not as impressive - I really need to go back and review this. You could also use Foobar2000 for Windows (freeware) instead of JRiver. Foobar does not support Linux which is what I use.
Got you running for <$1000 (cables, pre, DAC) plus the amp.
If you need any more help spending your money, just call me :).



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 29, 2015 at 16:51:31
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I got a used A21 of very recent vintage, it's in beautiful shape and sounds wonderful with my Tympanis. I think it would do very nicely with a 1.7i.

A23 would depend entirely on our listening level and that varies seriously from individual to individual so the safest thing to do is to measure the level at which you listen. Add 10 dB to the SPL meter measurement, then find a web site with an SPL-power conversion for dipole speakers or just do the calculation based on Maggie's sensitivity spec (for a typical listening distance, the 1 meter spec will work fine, since you have some room gain). Add a few dB for safety's sake - the ear can tolerate a surprising amount of clipping, but it isn't good for the speaker and you will hear it on some instruments like trumpet.

In general for used gear I'd rely heavily on the seller's rating. Someone with a perfect rating -- and who has sold enough stuff so that you know it wasn't put there by his uncle -- is probably going to be a safe bet.

Re sources, I'm inclined to favor Neolith's approach, which is to rip everything to your computer and use JRiver or Foobar (the latter is free), and an external DAC. Everything is moving in that direction and you can buy high res source material online. If your DAC does 2V out and you don't plan to clip your amp, you won't need a preamp at all.

 

Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 18:09:10
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Too bad the 1.7s can't be BiAmp'd. I run a PAIR of the A23 with my 1.6s and plan on going active / line level.

Also, if you go Parasound AND get the P5 preamp, it has sub outputs AND a filter to cut the extreme lows from the 'main' speakers.

The A21 is terrific and you can't go wrong with that approach, either.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 18:51:55
nocrapman
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: UPSTATE NY
Joined: July 1, 2012
 User alert: These are awesome speakers but hard ones to drive if like to crank things up occasionally. At low to moderate listening volumes any of the above amps should work.
I recently ran into clipping with my Bryston 4B sst2 at 500 wpc at 4ohms!

Get the most amp u can afford and some good room treatment.

Happy listening...

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 19:09:44
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 There was a thread on the Speaker Forum concerning the 1.7i. While the impedance curve is largely flat it does dip to 2.5 ohm at frequencies >15k. Depending on your source and volume your Bryston may have been stressed. For us normal humans, listening to Bach below 85 dB, it's not a problem :)



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 19:18:00
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Wow; I ran a single 4bst (not 'sst') on my MG1.6s for years and even at ear-bleeding levels I never heard em' clip.









 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 19:24:43
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 From 15khz UP I'd suspect no GREATER than 10% of total power. I doubt, or rather HOPE the Bryston doesn't have problems like that.

Maggies are NOT a 'bad load'. Low sensitivity? Check? High reactance? Nope.

Me? I'd look at power line stiffness. My 'd' amps didn't have such problems with roughlly the same 4ohm power as a 4bsst2. But the 'd' amp at those outputs were over 70% efficient, and possibly 80% from plug to speaker. The Bryston? 50%, give or take.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 19:33:05
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I agree but it's hard to argue with reality and I was looking for a possible cause of the clipping.
FWIW W4S states that their SX mono series is stable into 2 ohms - no mention about the ST but they use the same modules. I don't think they want you running continuously at 2 ohms but for transients it may explain why I have never had clipping with the ST500 (I did have occasional clipping with a Bryston 4BST that preceded the W4S).
A quick look at the specs on the 4BSST2 shows 300 into 8 but 500 into 4 which suggests a 2.5 ohm load may be just a little too much under the "right" conditions.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 29, 2015 at 21:35:34
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Can confirm 4B NRB clipping on nearly everything beyond a chanteuse-ey with a guitar. Driving the bass panels.

Of course I play at front of the hall volumes and living room chamber music volumes.

Not everyone does that nor wants it.

The Bryston was always on the hot side after a while playing. Tried it as a tweeter amp but it ran very hot on the 2.74 ohm tweeter. Does not do high current very well. Definitely does not like loads under 4 ohms.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 05:02:33
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Odyssey says their amps are two ohm stable. I have heard great things from a friend on these. Audible Illusions factory refurbished preamps and line stages are often available used but straight from the factory, sort of like a factory certified used car. Hi Fi Shark is your friend, way better than google for used gear.

Keep in mind if you go preamp and amp you'll probably want a DAC at some point (computer audio is addictive) and if you get a line stage you'll eventually need a phono pre.

 

RE: Too Bad!, posted on October 30, 2015 at 05:53:36
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 A simple test and maybe a cure is to put in a 0.5 to 1 ohm resistor in the tweeter attenuator.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 06:20:46
stustan
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: October 16, 2009
 I have had very good results driving my 1.7's with an Emotiva XPA-2, 2nd Generation. I think it's a greater "starter" at a fair price. Currently on sale at the Emotiva Website.
Congrats on your new speakers and enjoy the beginnings of your new adventure!!

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 07:24:16
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Agree that the XPA-2 is a great bargain, it sounded very good on my MMG's. I'm not so sure about the larger Maggies, e.g., 3.7 or my IVA's -- I read a comment to the effect that it has trouble driving them and that that was confirmed by Emotiva tech support. If my back cooperates, I may pull it out of the attic and try it on the IVA's.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 07:43:23
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I've been reading up on upsampling. Turns out that JRiver isn't the best program for it, ause they're using SSRC, which is a conventional brick wall FIR filter. Check out the comparison here, SSRC are the two samples at the bottom of the chart and you can see that it rings and prerings like crazy:

http://sox.sourceforge.net/rate-44k1-96k.png

The samples above are different options in Sox, which gives you much more control and is available as a plug-in for Foobar2000.

Meanwhile, HQ Player offers a lot of filter options as well, most of them apodizing. I'm not sure how they compare to the options in Sox. The HQ Player manual has some interesting info on the sounds of the different filters, e.g., they prefer the linear phase filters for classical because they say it does a better job with spatial rendition, and the minimum phase filters are better for studio pop:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAAahUKEwj4jJvgt-rIAhWMcz4KHeu_Bk8&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi-cat.biz%2Fpdf%2FHQPlayer-manual.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEu0TGuIYPSAj8zbqYQUpplwu-lTA&sig2=WiSRWd_AH2KIZv8QEW7T4w

Since I'm going with the MiniDSP which has one of those godawful ASRC inputs I'm thinking that I'd get better quality upconverting 44.1 to 96, which would push the ASRC's LPF up to 48 kHz where it would do less sonic harm. Unfortunately for me, JRiver is the only player that handles video, and I'm not really anxious to switch back and forth.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 09:44:01
yemtig@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Location: New Mexico
Joined: October 21, 2015
 Learning to setup a system has really educated me on all sorts of topics in the audiophile realm. Ok, now I'm leaning on getting the Parasound A21 as my standalone amp, have my speakers on order and am currently looking into preamps.

From what I have researched, I need one with a phono stage (since I'm adding a turntable later), and need to "match" my source and load impedance to find a good fit. A tube preamp would be nice, and I'm leaning that way. Do I need to match my pre and amp to one another only if I go the tube preamp to ss amp route? Or do I need to match regardless if using a ss preamp to ss amp? Balanced outputs on the preamp are preferred and that seems to limit and/or eliminate noise imparted by the cables you use to run from your preamp to your amp. I also realize that it probably going to be hard to find a nice preamp unit that provides all of these features at a decent price.

One question I have is do I need balanced outputs on my source equipment (cd player, etc...) to make the balanced outputs on my preamp to work properly? I was starting to look into cd players to replace mine (old sony carosel model) so that I can play most formats out there on cd... I have some hdcd format discs that I want the best quality sound I can get from them. I was looking at the oppo cd players and the 105 unit has some really nice features. I really like that unit since the dac processing is only really needed for digital sources anyway. This would allow me to focus on a preamp with a good phono stage to get the best sound on vinyl.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 11:27:37
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 You still need to make sure you have good load matching with SS, but it's not generally as problematic. If you look at the Stereophile reviews of preamps John Atkinson generally says in the measurements section what input impedances for amps will work with a reviewed preamp. In general, tube preamps seem to want an amp with a higher input impedance than the 33 kOhms the unbalanced inputs on the Parasound A21 have. This is not universal however.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 11:28:40
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Most tube preamps use add on balancd circuits since they run single ended. So unless you have a real problem with hum and RFI using the balanced options will just add unnecessary circuits and crossover distortion from balanced - single ended and back again conversions.

If you do indeed need balanced connections then run balanced sources as well.

Most people do not end up needing balanced connections so I suggest you don't go that route unless you know you need to. It rather limits your choices of equipment.

Tube preamps with phono sections that you want to get in plug and play condition would be the CAT signature or reference or the Melos MA333 stack. Any version of these classics is good.

Get a read on preamps from Arthur Salvatore at http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Preamplifiers.html

The route I chose was to modify with modern parts an older Bruce Moore design for Audible Illusions - the "Dual Mono" that preceded the Uranus Saturn and Modulus models and the Precision and MFA models he designed later on.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 11:33:34
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Most tube preamps that are not single stage will drive the Parasound and even a 10k amp with no problems.

If you want to go single stage you will need to have a preamp with an output transformer - like the Coincident Signature. Which is the best line preamp I ever heard and by some margin. Their phono based pre is also at that top notch level.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 11:57:21
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Thanks, I admit I am going by my own research, and what I read, not real world experience. I am thinking of changing over to a tube pre for my Acoustat Model 3 based system at some point. I believe the input impedance of my Acoustat TNT-120 is 47 kOhms so I have had some concern about what will match.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 12:19:40
lars.ramstedt@telia.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Joined: October 30, 2015
 Parasound A21. Balanced

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 12:36:46
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Most tube preamps will find the 47k easy to drive. Those with feedback SRPP, cathode follower or Cascode to lower output impedance should not have a problem onlly single stage preamps (really few of those around) would have a slight problem.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 14:52:46
yemtig@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Location: New Mexico
Joined: October 21, 2015
 what about going with a w4s st-500 as amp and audible illusions modulus3a preamp? those would match fine. I'd have some power and it seems like maggies work well with class d amps

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 16:17:33
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 92k input impedance on the current ST 500 mkII should make it compatible with any tube preamp.

The modulus series are a good choice. IIRC they have a SS phono stage.

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 30, 2015 at 18:19:20
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Tube preamps usually have impedances of 200-1000 ohms, while SS preamps have much lower impedances. Upshot, a SS preamp will drive anything while a tube preamp will do well with most amps except those with low (<20K) impedances. Most amps are around 50K but some of the newer designers who think of tubes as Pleistocene may create issues. FWIW if you can find a Music Reference RM5 (no remote, unbalanced) grab it - truly one of the best tube preamps (with phono MM) out there after 30 years.
As far as balanced lines. In theory they are superior but that relies and careful design. They reduced common mode noise but only if the impedances in each half are identical. Slight errors reduce the effectiveness. For an amp sitting next to the pre, balance is a waste of effort. OTOH if you use monoblocks sitting at the speakers with short speaker cables and long IC's, balance is something to think about. Most preamps with balanced outputs will accept both balanced and unbalanced sources.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 31, 2015 at 17:05:26
yemtig@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Location: New Mexico
Joined: October 21, 2015
 ok, decided on the AI Modulus 3a preamp, got a factory refurbished model and am super happy!!!! It has a tube stage phono section and comes with a set of NOS 6H23N-EB tubes!! Still looking for an amplifier, can't really decide but so far have only looked at ss amps... Should I possibly look at a few tube amps to make my decision final? Also, what about aftermarket powercords and audiophile power outlets? Will these really improve the sound that much better or am I reaching?? Was told to look at Shunyata Venom 3 power cords... pricey, but you know what they say... Buy once and cry once!! Anyways, really stoked and hope you guys/gals have a great Halloween with the kiddos!!

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on October 31, 2015 at 20:28:00
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The Audio Advisor proprietary Pangea brand power cables are good and hard to beat at the price. get at least 2ft longer than you need to allow for the power cable's stiffness.

Congrats on the preamp, a very nice piece.

The Parasound A21 is a very good choice in contemporary amps and will only be a limit on power if you play very loud (I do). The W4S ST500 is another.

There are plenty of alternatives at reasonable prices on the used market. We have gone over the choices many times.

You might want to consider a hybrid amp from Rogue Moscode/NYAL or Monarchy. See if CC Poon can make you a 250 hybrid.

In tube power amps consider the Rogue 4 tube per channel (KT120 tubes) Apollo and prior models, and the ASL Hurricane.

 

Great preamp choice!, posted on November 11, 2015 at 20:56:10
CometCKO
Audiophile

Posts: 873
Joined: August 9, 2002
 I ran the AI3a for more than 15 years and it's a great choice with a solid state amp. If you talk to Art Ferris at Audible Illusions, you'll find he's a fan of running them that way. I ran mine with several different solid state amps over the years (a couple Classe amps, a Bryston, and an Innersound and later MagTech amp). It's pretty quiet and very musical.

The phono stage on the AI3a is moving magnet only, but great sounding. You can use a step-up transformer (SUT) if you want to use a moving coil cartridge with your future turntable. I ran a Soundsmith "moving iron" cartridge with mine and was very pleased.

No big deal on running balanced or unbalanced (RCA). The Audible Illusions pre can run fairly long cables, which should give you placement options. I think every amp I ran had both balanced and unbalanced inputs, and I saw little improvement when I tried other amps that were balanced. The last one I tried was a Parasound JC2, which I found much drier sounding and less harmonically satisfying than the AI3a, but it was a bit quieter. A lot more money too. You've made a good choice.

The AI3a runs its tubes pretty hard, so don't get tempted to put in expensive NOS (new old stock) vintage tubes. Most won't last long. There are some options with new variants, but the ones that Audible Illusions supplies (Russian) will stand up well and sound darn good.

Good luck with your Maggies! Enjoy the music...



"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"

 

small correction, posted on November 11, 2015 at 21:07:12
CometCKO
Audiophile

Posts: 873
Joined: August 9, 2002
 The Audible Illusions actually have a tube phono stage unless you spring for the moving coil version, which replaces the Moving Magnet phono input circuitry with a higher gain solid-state board designed by John Curl, I believe. That's a killer phono stage, but the moving magnet tube version is pretty darn nice too. I loved mine!

I tried a number of solid state amps with my Audible Illusions preamps (I had the Modulus 3 in 1992, and later replaced it with a Modulus 3a).

AI with SS seems to be a nice combination. The preamp puts a little bit of meat on the bones. It sound more like live music to me since it fills in the harmonics that many solid state preamps of my experience leave bare. By no means is the AI3a all golden tubey, it's just a nice implementation of a clean modern tube circuit. You'll love it!

HTH



"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"

 

RE: Magnepan 1.7 setup, posted on November 12, 2015 at 12:32:45
yemtig@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Location: New Mexico
Joined: October 21, 2015
 Ok, I think I'm leaning towards the W4S ST-1000 as my amp and plan on ordering this next week. I am leaning towards a VPI Scout or Scout Jr as my turntable and think this will complete my setup quite nicely. My Maggies will be coming in the the next couple of weeks and am super excited to start off with a nice, well rounded system for once.

 

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