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Apogee Acouctics via Graz

108.245.106.138
Posted on September 20, 2015 at 19:24:02
TitaniumTroy
Audiophile

Posts: 626
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Joined: October 14, 2006
 Been awhile since anyone has asked about Apogee Acoustics, via Graz of Australia.
Has anyone heard Graz's refurbished Duetta, or Diva's, True Sound Works out of Minden NV. is selling Duetta's for about 8k, as I was quoted on the phone about half their price on the site.
Music Technology out of Springfield VA is also listed as a refurbisher.

My main question is how would a Duetta or Diva compare to my Magnepan 3.6's or 20.xs. True Sound Works thought a Duetta would work better in my 12.5 ft X 26, room due to the amount of bass they ouput. I have read some the older older Apogee's had some tonal imbalance. Large peak in the bass, and a rapidly declining treble.

Updates are supposed to include:
APOGEE ACOUSTICS CNC RIBBONS
- NEW CLAMPS & SUPER STIFF FRAME
- NEW STRONGER & MATCHED MAGNETS
- ENCAPSULATED FRAME FOR ZERO RESONANCE
- PURE FOIL TWEETER RIBBONS
- MATCHED & TUNED WITH THE FINEST CROSSOVER COMPONENTS
- ALL NEW REAL MAPLE WOOD ( other colors available )
- NEW SOCKS
- NEW INTERNAL WIRING

 

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RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 09:29:12
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Apogee and Magnepan do not play in the same league, really.
Bass output from an Apogee is very much like a cone bass but faster. Equally dynamic.
I have had the MG3.6 side by side with Apogee Duetta Signature, Apogee Scintilla and Infinity RS1b.
I sold the MG3.6 due to it's bass compression, messy mid and blurring of complex bass passages.
Some of the messy mids may be due to it charing membrane with the bass on the side.
Measurements will be presented in the near future.

But don't take my word for it.
Listen for Yourself.

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 10:13:13
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I managed to get more bass out of my bass panels with bracing and high power but I suspect a big Apogee bass would be better yet. I was wondering how the Scintilla bass compared to a Tympani bass. as you had both available to compare (even if not at the same time).

I remember the big Apoges having phenomenal bass but it was a very long time since I last heard one.(going on 20 years).

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 10:47:48
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Yes, but the sad thing was that my Tympani 1C had 2 broken bass panels on the left speaker so I never had the opportunity to make a good assessment of what that speaker could do when complete and unbroken.
So, I couldn't make a good comparison even if I wanted to.
It wouldn't be fair. ;)

Cheers!

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 18:40:08
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 In light of Troy's initial point, see the Diva response curve here:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/diva_stereophile_august1988.htm

Maggie tweeter is by all accounts better.

What I'd really like is a pair of Diva midrange ribbons! Maybe someone has a pair that was run over by a truck?

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 19:51:23
TitaniumTroy
Audiophile

Posts: 626
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Joined: October 14, 2006
 Josh, thanks for the link to that review. So the midrange hands off to the tweeter at 12hz, wow thats pretty high compared to even a 3.7 much less my 3.6s. Anything else you can tell me from that review, about the tweeter? And how it would sound against the Maggie True Ribbon Tweet?

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 21, 2015 at 21:46:52
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The maggie tweeter is better though more fragile. The mids however are a treat on the Apogees and I reproduced and extended that high XO point with my line of Neo8 to about 14khz and extended it down to 200hz. I don't think there is anything you can do better than have 100--200 hz up to 12+ khz handled by one driver. I don't think I am losing anything to the Diva in the mids but for the last iota of detail at really low volume where the open frame of the Diva mids really shines through. On the other hand, they are not 95db efficient nor can they play at 120 db with minimal distortion - though I only did that by accident. For what its worth 126 db did have significant distortion.

The Diva was a phenomenal speaker and if I could afford it and move it myself I would have got one, or a scintilla. I don't think I could fit a full range without moving to a new house with an additional course to the basement.

The bass FR I get with the wall loaded and braced Tympani IV bass panels has a similar bass hump 25-40, 45 hz. It is not a bad thing. I actually worked hard to get it.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 03:38:48
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I skimmed another review of the Diva's last night:

http://www.hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Diva-review-2.html

It said that the Maggie tweeter was better. I'm not sure how reliable this reviewer is. Suggest you do a search for "apogee diva review," there were several and I didn't have time to read them all. I think though that the consensus of the reviews I've seen is that Apogees are better in the midrange because of their true ribbons and Maggies are better in the highs where the Maggie ribbon takes over.

That 12 kHz crossover point is going to be poorly behaved. I'm guessing they have power response problems and they certainly will have lobing issues because the drivers are too far apart at that wavelength. You're also using the more massive 10 mil (?) midrange ribbon rather than the much less massive tweeter ribbon. However, all of this may be overcome by the advantages of having no crossover it the upper midrange, at 3.5 kHz.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 03:48:13
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Since no one seems eager to send me a pair of 2" ribbons, I've been wondering if you couldn't have someone machine precision edge plates and slap a ribbon on a Magnepan midrange magnet assembly. You'd lose the superior linearity of the side-by-side ribbon magnets but you'd gain the ribbon advantage of low resonance. And of course you couldn't do pure aluminum. But I understand that Graz does this with his EMIM diaphragm replacements and apparently they sound much better than the originals.

(Another difference is that they'd be damped by the holes in the backplate, and you'd still have the cavity resonance from the magnet assembly.)

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 04:07:50
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Some measurements on planar speakers, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kneq3r89yqs6i2h/AAA4ATwWCky1H1NC-KheByJea?dl=0

Depending on what method used, you can have rather different cruves. Look at the three curves for the Quad 989.

Interesting to see that many of those planars give up at rather low SPL in the bass. Diva and Tympani at about the same SPL. Apogee Fullrange is a better. Still, the Apogee bass driver does not limit in the same manner as the Magneplanar driver.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 04:46:19
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Brave man ( maggie critique) and i do agree, not in the same league ....

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 04:49:16
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 I can't say better , its is surely brighter based on how much gain you have adjusted in , the apogee had less to adjust ..

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 05:31:44
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Wow, great information there. I'll have to take some time with it, it isn't all obvious at a glance because I don't read the language.

As you say, different measurement techniques give wildly different results. I'm not sure that there's any ideal way to measure since bass is so room and placement dependent. But certainly, a 1 meter measurement of planar bass is misleading because it will exaggerate bass output. Also, with a 1/R radiation pattern bass won't fall off as rapidly as it does with an omni -- however, the omni will have more rough modal room gain in a small room.

Another thing to consider is that the coupling to the room makes a big difference. This is why Magnepan recommends the addition of DWM's to large rooms, and why big planars have too much bass in small rooms. It also means that a large baffle dipole like a Tympani will couple differently to a room than a smaller one, owing to proximity to room surfaces. My very impractical philosophy is to use a large speaker in a small room and equalize the bass down, that way you get more bass headroom and lower distortion!

I haven't figured out where the bass level figures/info on compression in that article are yet, I'm putting the finishing touches on my washing machine alcove because the new washer is being delivered today so I'm short on time right now. But I'll be really curious to see the information and how they've measured it, e.g., at what frequencies.

In practice, though, I don't ever remember running out of bass on my 1-D's except on the Telarc 1812. They were satisfying even on hard rock and movies which is one of the reasons I loved them, they seemed to me a good compromise between dynamic slam and electrostatic clarity. This was in a smallish room, though not as small as my current one, and there was a mantle between them so I think there was plenty of room coupling going on.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 05:37:15
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 One of the reviews I saw said that the Apogee was rolled off above 12 kHz. the freq response curves Ive seen don't show that but is the HF ribbon wider than Magnepan's? Because it could be a power response issue.

Commercial recordings are too bright, anyway.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 06:55:09
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Look at the impedance above 12 khz , some amplifiers cant deliver much up there below 4 ohms , then theirs room reflections and gain, cant see running without adjusting tweeter gain to match setup ...

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 07:16:58
mmlrot1
Audiophile

Posts: 99
Joined: June 10, 2011



I have heard Apogee Scintillas and they can play louder than Tympani IV's, but
the Tympani's when braced and in the proper position can achieve stunning
results.

My friends system goes to extremes!

Apogee Scintilla's (Bass)
Apogee Stages (midrange)
Hill Plasmatronics (from 700 hz on up (better than Maggie ribbon tweeter)

Apogee Scintilla's with there 1 ohm load requires amplifiers with
extraordinary current capabilities

 

there isn't a day that goes by that I regret selling mine, posted on September 22, 2015 at 07:34:00
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Agree Apogees do a LOT of things right: imaging, bass, lightning speed. But as each day that went by was another day they got older. They do well at low levels compared to Maggies which (to me) perform at their best 'wide open' (>80db).

If you're able to find a decent pair in good working order (ie Duettas under $1800) and they're able to give you 6-7 years of good service, I say that's money well spent. I only got rid of mine because I'm a die hard Maggie fan and I couldn't pass up a deal on my 20s.









 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 07:39:23
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I remember your description of your friend's system, I wouldn't soon forget it! Hard to see how you could beat the Plasmatronics.

He doesn't have a rotary woofer, though . . .

 

RE: there isn't a day that goes by that I regret selling mine, posted on September 22, 2015 at 08:42:47
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Yes, Green Lantern.
They are hard to beat at a large price range.
The aging of an unrefurbished Apogee planar is something that one have to take into account when buying.
If one gets their hands on a refurbished pair it will last your lifetime due to new type of foam.

One more thing, they are 2 different brands that play in totally different league, both in sound and price.
Sometimes sound doesn't reflect nor excuse the price but in this case, with Magnepan and Apogee, it does.

It all comes down to what the end user want and feel comfortable with.

I am also fond of the looks of MG3.x and MG20 and have always been.

Cheers!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 09:44:46
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 OK, had a chance to read a bit more closely. It looks like a 1 meter measurement from 40-400 Hz, and as you say, the planars don't do very well.

Tympani Iva 103 dB
Diva signature 101
Diva reference 102 (105 with active XO)
Apogee full range 108
Duetta reference 99
Duetta 101
Martin Logan Sequel II 107
nfinity RS 1 103 dB (that one surprised me -- I mean, a bass tower with six woofers?)
BMW 808 114 dB (this is the only one that can approach realistic levels -- and it's still marginal)
Misc. other boxes that are the same as the planars or play only a few dB louder

The first question I have is how the planars were measured -- did they measure at 1 meter, which isn't very meaningful for a dipole, or did they measure at a normal listening distance and then normalize the result to 1 meter?

Then as I mentioned you have to take the difference in radiation pattern into account -- the line sources will sound louder at the listening position than the point sources -- but also radiation pattern.

So it's hard to know what to make of this without a bit more information. It does show though that the full range plays louder. By doesn't limit, do you mean that the IVa doesn't slam against the pole piece. I assume they're using a benchmark like 5% distortion?

Otherwise, this doesn't surprise me -- most consumer loudspeakers can't play loud music at realistic levels. These speakers all seem pretty typical of the range you see, according to the figures in the Dolby dynamic range paper I sometimes quote here, which got its information from reviews in Audio Magazine.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 10:23:09
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Realistic levels!!! :)

Who the hell is trying to reproduce 114 db in their living rooms, 100-109 db is more than enuff for realism , the Infinity towers are sealed cabinets, so not suprised at all, they would bottom out when trying "loud" amp overload and servo madness..

Regards.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 10:38:44
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Only 103 db with RS1?
Wow, I am also amazed as I stopped at 114 when I measured my RS1b.
It was simply not good for my ears!

I think I will have to bring some measurements to go with my claim.

Cheers!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 10:56:31
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 114db @ 40 hz .? yeah graph required .......

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 10:56:45
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Here's a historgram -- you'll see that the measured peak levels of acoustical instruments are as high as 127 dB:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/16/168157.html

Perhaps you're measuring average rather than peak levels?



 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 11:06:16
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Good call, that's scary.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 22, 2015 at 13:21:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Add > 110 db for wall loaded and braced T IV bass panels facing straight forwards.

I didn't do higher level measurements because of lack of effective ear protection. The ear plugs I have are not quite effective at low freq and I could not do the measurements as my ears popped at the first tone. But transient bass did measure >110 db and may have hit 115db accompanied by major transient distortion.

 

+1 on Tympani bass (nt), posted on September 22, 2015 at 13:42:13
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 nt

 

RE: +1 on Tympani bass (nt), posted on September 23, 2015 at 08:50:27
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I think you should notice the difference between maximum output before power compression sets in and absolute peak SPL numbers. You need to move a lot of air in order to produce 110 dB at 30 Hz! Planar speakers is really not very good at this, not even the large ones.

I think the Tympani IVa basses can move about 1.5 liter of air peak-to-peak (one speaker). That is about 110 dB at 40 Hz minus the cancellation around the baffle.

The Infinity RS 1b can move air but perhaps are less linear?

 

RE: +1 on Tympani bass (nt), posted on September 23, 2015 at 10:16:33
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Yes, the RS1 should be less linear as all cones are.
Single sided magnet planars are too.
But then again the RS1 uses a servo control system that measures the EMF to correct the cones.

Measurements will be presented.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: +1 on Tympani bass (nt), posted on September 23, 2015 at 11:17:58
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I posted my measurements before

I think bracing and power availability make more of a difference than you expect.

If your amp is not capable of pushing more power you can run out of amp before the speaker runs out of output capability.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 23, 2015 at 11:30:25
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Impressive! And very different from the magazine report but I still don't know what criteria they were using or how they measured.

I don't remember, did you ever measure the difference between braced and unbraced? There's certainly a lot of bass energy going into vibrating the heavy MDF panel that could be going into vibrating the very light diaphragm and air (and wall, too, if it's attached there).

Of course this is also in the real world going to depend HEAVILY on the room and speaker/listening position.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 24, 2015 at 12:01:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I didn't manage a direct measurement exactly as the amp clipped and shut down on the unbraced panels as I was raising volume to match the 110 db peaks I got with the bracing (appx 37 hz). I did get to 102-103 db peaks before clipping. Also the speakers were in the arc arrangement so did not have wall loading.

By that measure the bracing adds possibly 8 db to peak bass at the mid 30s hz. I did not do RMS level comparisons because I wanted to preserve the amp for the future.

Values I gave before are for wall loaded and braced panels where I never managed to clip the amp before my ears gave out.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 24, 2015 at 12:26:19
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That's an impressive improvement! I was thinking of making some measurements when mine are up, but while those woofer panels can dissipate a lot of heat I'm leery of high power sine wave testing . . . a calibrated tone burst recording would be easy to analyze. Wonder if someone makes distortion analyzer software? Hard to believe they don't.

It would also be fun to look into the low-level compression issue.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 24, 2015 at 12:44:53
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 There is software and you can do some of the measurements with REW and the analyzer software from Dayton audio's mic and software package. Pro audio oriented packages are also available at a significant premium to that.

I didn't try to measure low level compression since the noise level in the house never seems low enough and though theoretically interested my playback levels are much higher so analog noise on the recordings is too high in most cases. I don't have much in DDD recordings as those are often unlistenable at all and I have not loaded up on new material for over a decade and what I have was pretty old to begin with.

The figures I gave for panel flapping/swaying compression are very approximate so I would rather just go with the subjective evaluation that points out very much stronger bass transients with bracing, accompanied by better extension and much tighter bass. Another world for piano left hand contrabass and drums.

 

RE: Apogee Acouctics via Graz, posted on September 24, 2015 at 17:05:07
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 It seems to me that if we're talking low-level nonlinearity it should show up nicely with a steady-state test signal, voltage in vs. SPL out. I imagine hysteresis would show up on a scope. If the signal is overdamped, it should be apparent in impulse response measurements. If it's a subtler phenomenon like traveling waves blurring low-level information, it should show up on a waterfall, although that's harder to interpret. I wouldn't expect resonant phenomena to be level-dependent in this manner, though. Finally, there are other effects such as Fletcher-Munson -- a speaker with a bit of loudness compensation built in will seem to "come alive" at lower levels.

 

while we're on the subj of Apogees..., posted on September 26, 2015 at 07:27:17
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003



Saw these pop up on my radar this morning; probably (IMO)the deal of the year- a pair of reworked ultra-rare 1 ohm Scintillas for a paltry $7500 total. About a 90 min drive North of San Diego. The pair of Divas pictured were already sold.

No link as to not break any rules, no affiliation; just one of those 'oh my' moments.









 

RE: while we're on the subj of Apogees..., posted on September 28, 2015 at 11:49:45
InfinityApogee
Audiophile

Posts: 237
Location: Sk
Joined: February 14, 2014
 I've owned 1D's and reworked 3.5's, they don't hold a candle to the Scintilla's, My friend in British Columbia had 3.6's, I asked him to pick up another set of Scintilla's for me close by him, he did, he asked if he could set them up, I said sure, he was so impressed he bought them off me and sold the 3.6's.
I also own Diva's with Graz ribbons, These speakers require a big room, min 25'wide and 33' long 10'ceilings, tried them in smaller rooms, don't work! they congest very easily loose HF and upper MR they need room to breathe period!

 

RE: while we're on the subj of Apogees..., posted on September 29, 2015 at 08:59:09
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Scintilla vs. 3.x is an easy one. It is in a different league. Though I only heard them in a large room appx the same dimensions as yours, I am not sure it has to be such a limitation. At least with a DAX there was some ability to adjust relative levels so that the bass does not overwhelm the room.

 

RE: while we're on the subj of Apogees..., posted on September 29, 2015 at 11:13:05
Norman M
 In the distant past (and when my hearing must have been nearly normal for my age), at great lengths on several occasions I leisurely listened to a variety of music genres to Tympani IIIA's and the original Apogee. An audio buddy made the change because he had been offered a bargain price and as a potential upgrade. Along with the speaker change he bought the then top of the line Electrocompaniet amp and pre-amp. Because AFAIWC both changes occurred simultaneously, I can't definitively assign sound differences to one or the other, or perhaps both. Nevertheless I never, either back then or now, believe night vs. day differences occur because of changes to electronics, as long as they are up to their chosen task (s).

I preferred his Maggie based system. (Perhaps needless to add, the listening room along with its furnishings were exactly the same. Even the speakers were positioned similarly, as was nearly possible.)

 

ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 4, 2015 at 07:40:41
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 THESE have got to be the deal of the year...if my CAD to USD conversion is right you're looking at around $1500...omg









 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 4, 2015 at 09:06:29
Norman M
 Only for my edification (I'm not about to enter any Apogee game), the one which remains for sale, is it the shorter of the two models shown in the picture you posted? And is that one the Diva or Scintilla? The questions reveal how much I know (or want to know) about OWNING an Apogee. Too many names, imo all of them Apogees should have assigned them model numbers and letters, (just as Magnepan did and continues doing today), instead of all those funny titles. I never remembered which was which, only the original and Grand have any meaning to me, and while I'm at bitching why was the original was also called "the full range", beats me. Did Apogee manufacture any speakers which weren't "full range"?

 

RE: while we're on the subj of Apogees..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 09:29:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Back in the 80s differences in amp and preamp performance were large to an extent we don't consider possible these days. Do you have any recollection of what electronics were used on the Apogee?

The Electrocompaniet electronics were among the best in their day and about as good as it gets in SS, along with Accuphase and a few others.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 4, 2015 at 09:38:36
Davey
 The taller ones (in the back) are Diva's.

Yes, the naming scheme doesn't really identify the relative size/capability of the different Apogee models, but if you've followed Apogee evolution at all you're well aware of the differences.

I've listened to both Scintilla's and Diva's quite a bit. My own preference (if my arm was twisted) would be for the Diva's, but I can understand some folks preference for the Scinnies.

Dave.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 4, 2015 at 11:09:16
Norman M
 Thanks Davey. I searched for the various Apogee models, names, etc. Taking a look at all these provides more than enough to remember:

http://www.hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Acoustics-Models.html#full%20range%20ribbons

They always gave me a bit of a headache, just too many names to stuff in a corner of my brain. Paraphrasing: 'Too many notes, just cut a few, there's a limit as to how many notes one can hear in the course of an evening'.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 4, 2015 at 16:50:42
TitaniumTroy
Audiophile

Posts: 626
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Joined: October 14, 2006
 Davey, what did you think of the Apogee sound vs Maggie's with True Ribbon Tweeters?

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 6, 2015 at 19:29:59
info@apogeeacoustics.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 11
Location: Queensland
Joined: October 9, 2010
 A full list of the historic Apogee's (pre 1999)can be found at http://apogeespeakers.com/

Today things are more simple, only one type is available, the Apogee Duetta Advance 7 :)

Take care - Graz
Mediocrity is a waste of time, energy and materials!

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 11:01:15
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Scintilla, Diva and Full Range all have so called "true" ribbons.
Scintilla and Full Range both have "true" ribbons on the midrange too.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 11:09:39
Norman M
 "Scintilla, Diva and Full Range all have so called "true" true ribbons.
Scintilla and Full Range both have "true" ribbons on the midrange too."


Could that be anything like who is on first and whats on second?

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 12:21:14
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 I don't think I understand the question.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 15:29:13
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 It's a tongue-in-cheek reference to a famous Abbott and Costello comedy routine.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 18:51:27
TitaniumTroy
Audiophile

Posts: 626
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
Joined: October 14, 2006
 I talked to Bill Thalman from Music Technology, out of Springfield VA. I liked talking to him better than the guy out of True Sound Works. Seemed more realistic about what the Apogee sound was compared to my 3.6s.

He thought the Apogees were more accurate due to their lower mass ribbon midrange and ribbon woofer. So hence would be faster than the Mylar in a Maggie. Thought bass would be similar and I forgot what he said about the tweeter. I was at work in a noisy room during the call.

He said the Full Range was the hardest Apogee to work 0n, hence it's 20k+ price vs around $15 for the Diva. He also said the difference was not that great between the two.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 7, 2015 at 19:32:27
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 His comment about the ribbon midrange seems to fit the consensus, though I don't think the issue is just mass -- the Diva ribbon is foil on plastic rather than aluminum like on the Full Range and Ampkilla -- ribbon tweeters aren't under tension so they don't suffer as badly from audible resonances. Also, true ribbons have a more linear magnetic field.

The consensus seems to be that the Maggie ribbon tweeter is better, but midrange is more important to the sound than highs are.

I also like the fact that the Diva doesn't have a crossover in the midrange, even though this means that the mid/tweeter crossover is going to suffer from serious lobing at he crossover point.

The Diva also used IIRC single pole crossovers, which Magnepan didn't reintroduce until the .7's (not counting the second version of the MMG).

Is the mass of the Apogee woofer lower? A woofer isn't fast by definition -- it's producing only slow low frequencies -- so mass doesn't have the same significance it does in a tweeter. Higher mass means less effective air damping, though, and more energy transfer to the frame (which Satie points out is more rigid and less resonant than the Magnepan frames). I'm thinking the Apogee's use of foil in the woofer makes it closer to the sound of the .7's. It's driven over more of its area which is generally a good thing and also the foil/adhesive/Mylar make a constrained layer damper, reducing unwanted resonances.

Another advantage of the Apogee which surprisingly I haven't seen any modders here imitate is the truncated pyramid baffle shape, in theory anyway the slanted side should reduce the comb filtering that you get above Fequal, the frequency at which the smooth 6 dB/octave dipole rolloff begins.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 8, 2015 at 22:26:25
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 No, the diva tweeter is pure aluminium ribbon. NOT kaptone backed.
Diva's midrange is multi trace ribbon on kaptone.

Cheers!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 9, 2015 at 06:16:26
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Sorry, was referring to the mid, not the tweeter. Then spaced and said "ribbon tweeter" at the end, which I can see could have been misleading. I really should read these things over before I hit send!

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 9, 2015 at 08:26:21
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 That's okay!
I fail from time to time to get my mind through when translating from my native language Swedish to English.

Cheers


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 9, 2015 at 17:26:02
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Alas, I have no such excuse, since Martian and English are one and the same.

 

RE: ladies and gentlemen - I stand corrected, posted on October 9, 2015 at 17:41:04
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Hahaha! Good answer to my not so good example!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

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