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Revealation, sort of off topic.

73.147.174.227
Posted on July 23, 2015 at 10:39:15
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Last night I decided to listen to some mp3 files that I had created for listening in my car. Believe it or not this was the first time I had listened to mp3 on my system. I don't claim to have golden ears by any means, but the difference from redbook CD's, LP's and flac files was clear.
At first, I was at a loss to figure out why the mp3 did not sound as good since all the dynamics, imaging and range were there. However, what I did notice was that the musicality and the believability of a live performance was totally absent. I guess the best way to describe it was that the music seem lifeless and flat.
I am sure this does not come as a surprise to anyone out there but for this old fart who only uses his 6th generation smartphone to make phone calls, it was enlightening.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

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Not surprised., posted on July 23, 2015 at 12:36:24
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 The only thing that is surprising is that everything else IS there. As for phones, I do text, take pictures... but have no idea what generation my phone is.

 

RE: Not surprised., posted on July 23, 2015 at 13:38:53
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 To be accurate, I do occasionally use the phone to text. Mainly my wife texts me with "Where RU?" when I wander off in Lowe's or Costco and to give me other instructions to which I respond with "OK".




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

Similar..., posted on July 23, 2015 at 14:23:22
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7727
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Shopping lists for "on the way home" (wife doesn't work) for example. I also have 3 nieces (18-24) who we are very close with. I used to get texts from the 2 older sisters frequently (weekly at the very least). As of this year they are both engaged... now my phone is not so busy. :)
They're a great tool.

 

I'll raise you! :-)) ..., posted on July 23, 2015 at 19:20:36
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I actually don't have a 'smart' phone - just a 'phone' phone (I have no idea what it is - it was supplied a few years ago by our national comms company (Telstra) as part of a contract.)

So I can't surf the Internet or run 'apps' - but I can SMS ... and even take, send & receive pics. That's all I want to do. ;-))


Regards,

Andy

 

Ditto Grant's response., posted on July 24, 2015 at 06:11:35
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 MP3s are highly compressed files. The only high quality digital I have are uncompressed 24/96 or 24/192 files in .WAV or FLAC format. Or, of course, the source SACDs or DVD-As. A normal LP, ripped in 24/96 will take up 1 GB + in disk space whereas an MP3 rip will take up 150-250 MB.





Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 24, 2015 at 09:04:54
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Well, MP3s suck Just not enough there to convince even a teen listening to electronically processed voice and pop bands with an 8 db dynamic range. Even 1/4 speed RtoR sounded better.

In recent comparisons of CD DSD and Vinyl we found that for classic rock at least DSD is nearly enough to make music as believable as Vinyl.but for the rendition of voice and acoustic instruments. For classical and acoustic Jazz DSD only gets you 50% of the way for cheap and 60-70% for $6k and up. And we are not talking SOTA vinyl or 45rpm reissues.. With the interim quality level in DSD we ended up thinking significantly less of CD. placing it at 30% for cheap and 40% for $5k or more. Though a slight bit of detail is lost in converting PCM to DSD, that ups the believability of the music to 40-50%. MP3 is just a skeletal version of the music - like an airplane frame without a skin. You see what it is supposed to be but it is very clearly not it, and it won't fly.

It amazes me that there is a whole generation of youngsters who have never heard anything but mp3s have never heard live unplugged music except for the friend singing off key with a clunky guitar due for a smashing..

Another note is that classical DSD and 24//96+ remasters have much more bass because the engineers don't need to compress it to keep within the 16 bit limit. You can even get solid discrete images of bass instrument groups which are rare on other formats.where bass had been mercilessly compressed in order to leave the midrange far enough off the noise floor..

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 24, 2015 at 11:52:49
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 Certainly even 16 bit PCM has more dynamic range headroom than a LP phonograph! ("vinyl" is like calling CD's polycarbonate, there's the actual accurate word).

LP mastering engineers always added dynamic range compression; and I think one of the psychoacoustic appeals of LP was the tasteful and modest use of such---Fletcher Munson effects. Now of course, digital enables(technically) extreme dynamic range compression which would be difficult to put on an LP unless you wanted 8 minutes per side, so the limitations of the phonograph preclude the worst mastering atrocities and are another source of practical superiority of phonograph *recordings* people may experience in pop music.

In classical that isn't the case.

I had hardly heard advanced modern phonographs until I went to the Irvine show. After reading all the hype I expected to be impressed (though I wouldn't engage myself for the logistical & cleaning requirements). I wasn't.

Either the LP's sounded good, good with clicks and pops, or or colored, congested, with clicks and pops. All the digital sounded good.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 24, 2015 at 13:46:33
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Depends on the expectations you have and what you listen to as reference.

The big deal about vinyl is believability of the sound of the acoustic instruments and voices. I do have pressings where there is no compression and no mono bass mixing which are recorded about 6-8db lower in the mids than most classical LPs and have a full blown bass and great dynamic range. But those require virgin vinyl to prevent the fine grained hiss that eats up the bottom 10db of dynamic range. During the LP era the US pressings were not on virgin material and suffer as a result and can't be mastered the way some of these European and Japanese pressings were. .

For people who are used to CD and have trouble differentiating pops clicks crackle and noise from the instruments and voices then LP listening will always be accompanied by distractions.

The vast majority of speakers amps and preamps will obfuscate the major lead of LP in the midrange. - all but a handful of the thread and tiny motor players can actually reproduce the dynamic capacity of the medium. Only high torque players (some DDs and idler drive) can do that, and without serious effort to damp them those are noisy. My old Rega planar 3 visibly slowed down on loud passages and so did my much heftier Oracle Delphi and Alexandria. I ended up dumping those in favor of a modified Technics 1600/II which I had rebuilt. It is slightly noisier and lost me a slight bit of detail, but increased dynamic range and bass slam and extension to a great extent.

Unfortunately, much of the analog fandom like the accentuation of fine detail and quiet that the thread drive players achieve by compressing the top end of the available dynamics on the LP. I would rather get all of the music and tolerate the extra noise.

I don't count sins of addition as any worse than sins of omission. So when the "skin" of the music disappears in part (DSD) or in its whole (mp3) leaving only the frame and struts then I don't readily identify the instruments in a large tutti, while I can readily tell them apart in even mediocre vinyl pressings. DSD is also much better in localization (imaging) than CD is and vinyl does better than either in this regard.

But if you expect clean and quiet and uncompressed sound then only high bit digital will give you that routinely without losing the fine transients entirely. If you can tolerate a bit of noise and clicks then low torque LP will give you quiet and details but will compress the loud passages and bass. If you can tolerate more noise then a well damped high torque LP will provide you with both full dynamics and good bass along with a bit of extra noise, but fine transient detail will be retained. With that you will get a more believable presentation of acoustic instruments.







 

Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 24, 2015 at 14:11:19
Davey
 Or you were delusional.

I spun many a disk on my Planar 2 through the years and never once saw it visibly slow. (Strobe disk attached to a center clamp.)
The belt needs to be changed occasionally and the motor pulley cleaned as well. I'm sure that was your issue.

Dave.

 

RE: Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 24, 2015 at 16:41:10
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 What were you using for the cart? I used a Sure micro ridge V15 and changed the belt to make sure it was not the issue.

I was playing the Rachmaninoff 3rd PC with Horowitz and this was at the loud portion near the end of the 1st movement.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 24, 2015 at 17:08:16
OldTimer
Audiophile

Posts: 87
Location: Vegas
Joined: June 27, 2015
In recent comparisons of CD DSD and Vinyl we found that for classic rock at least DSD is nearly enough to make music as believable as Vinyl \\

Pardon an Oldtimer but.... DSD?


May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.

 

RE: Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 24, 2015 at 19:09:57
Davey
 I used at V15V-MR and a test record with some worst-case groove modulations.

The problem with those Rega's is the belt slips on the pulley at turn on/off and stretches/wears it fairly quickly. The pulley needs cleaning occasionally as well.
The belt only makes contact with 1/4 of the pulley circumference, so if the belt is marginal and/or the pulley dirty you get slippage. This is most likely what you were experiencing. A simple five-minute cleaning and new belt would have solved your issue.
It's a round cross-section belt in a V-groove so the contact area is minimal.

If you know anybody who wants a Rega Planar 2 with no arm let me know.

Dave.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic. Huh 40%? , posted on July 25, 2015 at 08:31:34
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Interesting numbers , IMO there's no way cd is 40% vs analog , i mean thats just plain silly really , you must have had a really bad digital setup.



Regards


 

RE: Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 25, 2015 at 11:11:05
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I remember the Rega pulley and how hard it could sometimes be to get the "belt" to stay both in the pulley detent and the subplatter channel. But I don't think I was having that problem.
The very loud passages were followed by wow in their reverberant trails, which I also had with the Oracle tables though not to the same extent. After hearing the twang in the Rega after loud passages I started noticing it during the loud passages and after loud whacks on drums and piano poundings. Years later I noticed it on the Oracle table too. It was at a lower level and was a substantial improvement over the Rega but was still there and became more obvious over time.

I had always used clamps on the turntables so I am fairly certain that it was never a matter of slippage. Also this did not occur on the Lenco I had before and I didn't have a clamp for it, I just used a weight occasionally..

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic. Huh 40%? , posted on July 25, 2015 at 11:32:29
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 My attitude has always been that CD is "good enough" and let you have most of the music and a $5k PS audio DAC or Musical Fidelity DAC ca 2002 was fairly good and despite the digital edginess and somewhat unnatural tone and missing textural cues I would have said that excellent digital was better than most of what you could get off a reasonably priced belt drive LP setup - and disregarded high torque options. After having tweaked out the Technics deck I found that the bulk of the dynamic advantage of CD was no longer there, leaving you with just its quiet as an advantage.

I would have rated my digital setup as giving 60% or more of what I get from vinyl. But the SACD player I had was a simple Sony and an Oppo universal players. They did fine but could not feed DSD to a DAC and were middle of the road at best. Now that I have just a simple computer rig to feed DSD to a DAC (a Loki and a borrowed PS Audio DS) then I can say that what CD offered didn't come up quite as high as it seemed before since the DSD playback still didn't get you all the way there yet was far better than the CD.

I think my digital rig for CD is quite nice (Sony battleship 707ES and Musical Fidelity HTP DAC/Pre) and compared well to the TAD 7000 with endless tweaks and the original PS Audio Perfect Wave. It is a bit less detailed and significantly less natural and smooth compared to the PS Audio DS Dac on CD.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 25, 2015 at 14:21:45
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I use a Denon DP55-K (direct drive) with a Magnepan Unitrac I arm and Dynavector 17D-Mk2 and I get no noise or speed change. The Denon is noticeably quieter than my Linn Sondek (also with a Unitrac and the same cartridge). I believe the Denon has fairly high torque but I have no idea about the damping - it does have a very rigid suspension unlike the super springy Linn.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic. Huh 40%? , posted on July 26, 2015 at 02:03:40
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 I find PC feeding a DAC not to be as straight forward as some would think , very much software /DAC/cabling / setup dependant , most setups are not as good as a decent CD player , definitely not plug and play, maybe my hearing is defective , but at no time do i see digital at only 40-60% of analog , even if we are talking about 100K worth of analog vs 3K worth of digital CD player ...




Regards

 

RE: Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 26, 2015 at 06:08:52
Davey
 Some clamps won't work effectively with those Rega tables since the center post is not securely attached and could rotate relative to the platter and/or pull through the hole in the glass. A weight and/or a "sticky" mat would be the only alternative to prevent slipping between vinyl and glass. My setup was superior in that I used a clamping/weight scheme that didn't exert any upward force on the center post.

Regardless, the belt slipping issue is a separate one.

Dave.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic. Huh 40%? , posted on July 26, 2015 at 15:48:15
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I have to agree on it not being straightforward. Takes quite an effort to clean up your windows parts and security and I use fidelizer software to shut down non-crucial software. Then things are good. That said, a really nice SACD player would come in handy.

 

RE: Your Rega 3 was not working correctly., posted on July 26, 2015 at 20:08:55
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The clamp I used on the Rega is similar to the KAB clamp I use on the Technics. The Delphi and Alexandria have threaded spindles for the screw on clamp and sticky mats. The Oracles also have a wide belt with lots of contact area on the subplatter. One of the reasons I got the Oracle in the first place - to avoid the "twang" issues I had with the Rega on loud transients and loud passages.

 

RE: Revealation, sort of off topic., posted on July 26, 2015 at 20:56:20
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The noise reference is actually directed more at the Lencos. The Technics didn't require much to turn the noise down even lower than the Alexandria, which is a fairly quiet belt drive. The Linn is desirable for how the noise that it does make complements most music. I don't think anyone claims the Linn is particularly quiet. I am talking about the quieter heavy platter belt drive tables like the Volvere or Forsell etc..

The DP55 is a high torque table - scaled down from a broadcast table just like the classic DD technics Sony pioneer JVC Kenwood/trio and sansui tables.

 

RE: Alternate Opinion, posted on July 27, 2015 at 20:08:55
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 While I can consistently select lossless from MP3 playback in a blind test, I regularly stream higher res MP3 from Spotify and Pandora and an amazed at the breadth and depth still available from the format. I don't mind listening to it at all - sort of like I use to listen to FM radio years ago - especially symphony and jazz. Just this last Saturday evening - I thoroughly enjoyed Prairie Home Companion - especially the music streaming from my iPhone app. Like most music - good recording and producing and playing and performing will trump sampling rate and bit depth anytime.

BTW - you should support your local Public Broadcast Radio Station financially, if only for the music content, at an annual Spotify rate or better :) I'm a libertarian/conservative politically - but support the arts wholeheartedly! Makes me feel much better than sending the money to politicians and their PAC's









"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Alternate Opinion, posted on July 28, 2015 at 04:25:17
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Hard supporting PBS radio when music content is only 4hrs top per day and then Have to put up with 15 hrs of politico dis-information ...


BTW they are already getting donations , tax dollars .....


Regards

 

Soundstage, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:13:02
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 1455
Joined: March 4, 2002
 When I tried that years ago (I have a much better system now), what I noticed w/ MP3s was the lack of imaging and soundstage depth. These were someone else's, probably at default settings, not high bitrate, etc.

 

RE: Alternate Opinion, posted on July 29, 2015 at 12:17:53
DavidJames
Audiophile

Posts: 184
Joined: January 13, 2004
 My guess is your politico dis-information = information you don't agree with. Because NPR is as close to neutral as this country gets.

end of my involvement.

 

RE: Tend to agree, posted on July 30, 2015 at 13:32:05
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 At least in Atlanta - outside of the game shows and obvious politcal comentary - they do seem to (1) go in to much deeper analysis, (2) never (or Rarely) use derogatory tones (Global warming/climate change excepted)
(3) seem fairly even compared to NYT, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS.

Their editorial board is Not conservative - but I don't mind that - gives me a therputic chance to yell at the radio - and improves my ability to persuade folks toward my libertarian perspective.

I'll turn Rush on at lunch now - or listen to my spotify - because PBS ATL stopped lunch concerts ;-(


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Alternate Opinion - err ,,, , posted on July 31, 2015 at 05:52:37
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 NPR= neutrality .... Lmao


Thousands of kids starving and dying in the ME and the country chases a Lion killer , nuff said ..

Local programming , enjoy their jazz program Tuesday thru Thursday, listen in the morning 7-9 am , good info to research on , neutrality not...


Regards

 

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