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Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?

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Posted on July 21, 2015 at 09:52:12
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 I've finally got around to taking the socks off my one panel I noticed a buzz from. Very minimal delamination from the ends but in the middle besides the two tuning plugs there is more serious delamination. The wires bow up and when you pad them down they bend and don't "line up". I did read one repair running into something similar and he laid them down with small z or s curves. Does anyone have any tips for this. Is it OK to lay them down with bends if they can't be laid straight?








 

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RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 21, 2015 at 10:59:08
guitar slim
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Washington DC suburbs
Joined: May 24, 2012
I think this is a common problem when delamination occurs. I repaired the mid-range panels on my Tympani IVs and had to use "S-bends" to rebond the wires.

It's best to keep the wire as close as possible to the center of the magnetic flux, so I figure it is best to use multiple smaller "S-bends".

Best of luck, I think you can get very good results and will not notice any difference from new.

What adhesive do you plan to use?

BTW, greetings and thanks to anybody who remembers me here. I'm still enjoying my NEO-8 T-IVs with the DEQX. Sometimes I still read what is going on at the asylum, but usually don't feel like I have anything new to contribute.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 21, 2015 at 14:35:48
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 I already have some Weldwood contact cement from a different project so I am planning on using it.

thanks for the tip on using smaller z bends, I'll use some needle nose pliers I think.

Why is it that it gets green and gummy at the ends and not the center even though there is delamination throughout?

Is it advisable to do the full razor mod to magnet front maggies like the 2.5R? or just half razor?

After taking the socks off to upgrade the crossover and inspect the panel, I'm pretty disheartened at how flimsy these stock frames are. There is clear bending that occurs when lifting from one end. And the stupid staples/nails that attempt to hold the driver in place are just about useless... there is lots of side to side movement and 1/8" gaps between the nails and frame on one end! the driver is literally just flopping around in there. I am considering taking the nails/staples out and securing the driver with an aluminum or steel L type corner bracket screwed to the frame. Certainly not as good as a double hardwood frame sandwiching the panel but hopefully much better than its current condition.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 21, 2015 at 20:15:04
j beede
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Location: NorCal
Joined: March 28, 2011
 I couldn't agree more... As much as I admire the sound of many Magneplanar speakers, they are not exactly confidence inspiring with the socks off.

I would suggest you avoid making sharp bends to the voice coil wires. Smooth "s" bends versus "Z" bends should reduce the chances of an open circuit further down the road. Good luck.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 22, 2015 at 12:53:41
guitar slim
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Washington DC suburbs
Joined: May 24, 2012
I guess the older glue turns a nasty green color as it ages. It's a real problem if it continues to deteriorate. Eventually I gave up on my mid-range panels and replaced them with the NEO8 drivers. Other people seem to fix their delamination problem and never have trouble again.

The staples can be tightened up just by bending them. I had a buzz in one of my bass panels and was advised to do this by someone a Magnepan. It worked fine and I never had it happen again.

Best of luck.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 22, 2015 at 15:05:53
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 So the ends of the panels are green and gummy but there's isn't THAT much delamination. Should I still clean those areas off with acetone and lay down new glue so I don't have to worry about it in the future? Can I just brush glue on top of the green and have the same piece of mind?

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 22, 2015 at 20:39:21
stigs
Audiophile

Posts: 87
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 30, 2011
 The best tip I can give you is to throw away the contact cement and use Beacon 527 glue. Dap / Weldwood is very difficult to thin out with any solvent and if you need to re-visit the area it is extremely difficult to remove. Beacon flows much better is easily thinned with acetone to give you the ability brush on with a small artist brush. You will also be using less glue due to better flow-out. It also dries enough within 30 seconds so you can move along without your previous work lifting , which is another reason to stay away from DAP. I did a complete pair of MMG's because all my wires and quasi-ribbons were delaminating. I did this over 5 years ago and everything is holding up very well.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:39:03
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 I recently successfully repaired both panels in my MMGs. One panel had delamination on either end- that was easy. The other, looked worse than yours- grim is the word. Sections of wires were stretched and also bent.

The procedure I used is as follows:
Clean all damaged and delaminated areas with acetone as well as possible.
Spray both panels with Krylon clear. The clear eliminated any residual tackiness.
I straightened out the bent wires as carefully as I could using needle nose pliers where appropriate to make "S" curves, and arranged them as evenly as possible.
I then applied DAP water base contact cement with small foam brushes to one or two damaged sections at at time depending on how large they were. I held the wires in place with metal washers until the glue was almost completely dry. I could then mocw onto the next section (s). The water base cement gave me valuable working time to rearrange the wires where necessary. It dries almost completely clear except in a few areas where I put it on too liberally.
I then made sure all the funky staples which hold the panel in the mdf frame were tight. Then, I cut strips of Dynamat and pushed it into the seams between the magnet panel and the mdf frame. I used a number of tools to "burnish" the Dynamat as flat as possible. Small screwdriver handles and small socket wrench extensions and handles work well. I then covered all seam between panel and frame with heavy duty Gorilla Gaffer tape. You cannot see the repairs, the Dynamat, nor the tape through the socks.

Solid!

I'm willing to bet the speakers sound as good, or perhaps better now than when they were new. That may or may not be true but damn, they now sound good.

Buzz Begone!

Hope this helps. The repair was time-consuming but not that difficult. Patience is definitely a virtue.

One other thought, I've read a lot of disparaging remarks about the structural integrity of the MMGs. I feel otherwise. After bringing them back to life, which required only a few dollars for the cement, Dynamat, and tape, and a few hours of time, my feeling is that despite appearances, these speakers can take a hell of a lot of abuse and still be brought back to life. We all know that the MMG's are entry level and even brand new they are a bargain. They also give great ROI.


 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 20:07:44
j beede
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Location: NorCal
Joined: March 28, 2011
 I wonder why you "cleared" over the tacky diaphragm instead of wiping it down with acetone? The added mass is negligible but I prefer to use as little wire and glue as possible.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 28, 2015 at 20:38:43
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 I was guided in my repair by a Magnepan guru who will remain nameless, but he is someone many of us have heard of. He was quite generous with his information. He suggested the clear coat. I saw no reason to disturb the wires which still adhered to the panel by rubbing them with acetone. Furthermore, I do not like acetone from a health perspective and wanted to minimize my exposure.

I have no way of scientifically appraising the results of the techniques I used. All I can say is that my MMGs sound wonderful now. I did not add any wire. The amount of wire involved was no more than what Magnepan put into the speaker. All I did was try to reduce the "stretch."

Magnepan told me to use a foam brush when applying their cement. I figured the same applicator would work just fine applying the DAP water based glue. And I was right.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 29, 2015 at 07:12:22
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 I was wondering if you had any pictures of the repair process. That would be very helpful to all of us. I have recently reglued some of my T1-D panels, but used 3M 3NF as advised by Magnepan. The wires were not very loose and had not "drifted" or were bent in any way so that made for a very easy repair. Sorry I did not take any pictures this time but I will be sure to do so next time as i did with my "Frankenpan" creation. In addition why did you use the clear coat, and exactly where did you spray it. I would love to see how you used the deadening material as well. You have described a very cool repair...thanks!

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 29, 2015 at 08:34:50
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Unfortunately, I did not photograph the repair. I was eager to get on with the job and had already spent a lot of time researching, including a couple of calls to Magnepan. I thought I'd gotten a "good deal" on the speakers but realized that I did not, so I was rather pissed off- mostly at myself. :)

Oh well, Caveat Emptor.

I didn't even have the patience to wait for Magnepan to send me the 3M 3NF. I liked the idea of using a water base contact cement, which gave me a lot of time to make small adjustments to the stretched wires. It was tricky getting the worst of them to lie parallel and relatively straight. Had I used solvent based cement I would have been "stuck." (sorry)

I used the Krylon clear to eliminate all residual stickiness on the entire panel (s). I did not want to expose myself to any more acetone than necessary and saw no reason to disturb the wires which had not delaminated by scouring the entire panel (s) with acetone. The clear acts as a light coat of sealer over the old adhesive. It made working on the panels easier and cleaner. I sprayed both panels completely.

Here's how I used the deadening material:

The Dynamat sheets I had were 12"x12". Using a utility knife and a straight edge, I cut 1" x 12" strips. I then adhered the Dynamat strips over the joint where the voice coil panel meets the MDF frame. I burnished each strip before applying the next one. By burnish, I mean I pressed the sticky Dynamat material as far into the joints as possible using rounded edge tools taking great care not to damage any of the speaker wires. I got the Dynamat as flat as I could and then covered all those seams with the black heavy duty Gorilla Gaffer tape. I did this for two reasons. One to further bond the magnet panel to the frame, and two, to cover the reflective metal side of the Dynamat so it would not be visible through the socks.

RE: the techniques I used: All I can say is that the speakers now sound great, from bass to highs. And, there is absolutely no buzzing.

I hope this helps.
YMMV

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 29, 2015 at 11:59:00
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 Thanks for the thorough explanation. Looks like you really thought this through. FYI the 3M 30 NF is also water based and it does allow time for adjustment, then one could move some wires around if necessary and if needed apply more 30 NF as it is very thin. Thanks again for your post I really appreciate it when people take the time to explain as it then becomes a step by step tutorial. :) Very Nice!

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 29, 2015 at 12:24:58
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Computerman:
Thanks for your kind note.

Once I learned that the 30NF was water based, I figured the DAP would work as well. It, too, is thin. The reason I was not worried about adding any significant mass by spraying the panels with the Krylon clear, is that Magnepan suggested I use 3M Super 77 to hold any wayward wires in place prior to applying the 30NF - or in my case the DAP cement. Well, the 3M adhesive is a lot thicker and heavier than Krylon clear. :)

The cement job I did will not win any awards for most beautiful visual appearance, but sonically it worked fine.

As a footnote, ironically I was offered a free pair of SMGs about 8 months ago, which needed repair. I turned the offer down figuring I had enough projects. Also from what I had read at the time, the repair process sounded much too fussy and involved. Hah!

Let's hear it for 20-20 hindsight!

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 30, 2015 at 20:24:12
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 OK wires are glued down. Does anyone have any tips to remove the nails and staples holding the driver to the frame? I'm nervous about putting any pointy sharp objects near the mylar. How did you all do it?

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 30, 2015 at 21:05:48
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 Actually some needle noise pliers are doing the job just fine with nothing flying around.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 31, 2015 at 05:32:39
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 As a footnote I sprayed too much Super 77 one time and wow try to get it off without totally ruining the wires. I was able to clean it up really good but I did not like the mass it left. I still have some but will never use it again. To understand this correctly did you use the Krylon in place of the Super 77? If you did, how well did it work for that purpose? Were they tacked enough so that there was no or little possibility of movement? Too bad on the SMG's but I get the 20/20 hindsight. Hindsight is always 20/20 yes? :)

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 31, 2015 at 07:20:27
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Magnepan suggested I use Super 77 to hold the wires in place prior to applying the contact cement. I did not follow their suggestion because Super 77 is thick, messy, and an overall PITA to work with.

The Krylon is not an adhesive and did not hold the wires. The reason I used the Krylon was to cover the residual stickiness of the old, remaining Magnepan glue. I wanted to use as little acetone as possible and to disturb neighboring wires as little as possible. By "neighbors"I'm referring to the undamaged wires which still adhered to the panel.

In a sense, the Krylon served as a "primer." A couple of light coats of Krylon added negligible mass to the entire panel and made it easier to do the repair. Instead of Super 77 I used small metal washers to hold sections of the wires in place while the DAP water base cement dried. I removed the washers one-by-one before the DAP had set up completely. I used a gentle twisting, sliding, upward motion to get the washers off the magnet panel. In some areas where the washers had been, I brushed on a little more of the DAP contact cement. I did that because removing some of the washers caused a bit of the DAP to come off.

My repair is not cosmetically elegant but it worked great.

And yes, at least for me hindsight is 99.9% 20/20. :)

Hope this helps.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 31, 2015 at 10:36:50
kappa546
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: October 6, 2004
 So I took the nails out and decided to dampen driver vibrations against the frame by using cord weatherstrip. It is not the typical rubber type weatherstrip, but feels more like light clay.







I lifted the driver and applied a layer between the driver/frame and between driver/aluminum bar which is now screwed to the frame holding the driver in place in a weatherstrip/driver/weatherstrip sandwich.












Next I'll be replacing the flimsy wood trim on the sides with an aluminum c-channel to resist frame flex. I'm getting really exited about hearing these beauties when I'm done!

Pardon the weird image split artifact, not sure why my camera is doing that.

 

RE: Delamination repair: sections of wire seem "stretched", any tips?, posted on July 31, 2015 at 10:50:37
paul3
Audiophile

Posts: 253
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: January 2, 2015
 Looks Great. I'm betting they'll sound great as well. :)

 

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