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Too Much Toe-In!

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Posted on July 5, 2015 at 09:33:56
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Too much Toe-In is a hard to describe. Anyway, my set up was guilty of that and realized such when I would get up out of my listening chair and the aural qualities improved, i.e., the soundfield was better focused, with more clarity, detail about three feet forward (too much Toe-In!).

Reduced the toe-in and everything got better, not that it was bad before. Now my 2.5's sound amazing as they should and did before.

Fake ficus', proper room placement make for nirvana😎. The biggest change is in the width of the soundstage and even more liquid (3D).

Confession, I was actually contemplating different speakers, ahem.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

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RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 09:59:53
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
June 17, 2003
glad to hear it's working out for you! Q: can you describe exactly how much toe-in you were using versus what you're currently using? IOW, if the 'null' position of your speakers were in a straight position, approx how many inches would the outer corners of your panels be? Currently I have mine at about a 5









 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 10:10:07
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
GL:

Not sure of the degree of toe-in I had, it was as such the left channel were centered on my head. Now I have the left channel pointed at my left shoulder and the right at my right shoulder. I'm using the rule of 3rds for room placement which seems to be what sounds the most neutral.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 10:11:41
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Errata, the left/right were aimed at my head...
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 12:39:20
Heads vs. shoulders (vs. ears)? aim them at your ears. Depending on the relative sizes of one's head vs. their shoulders, there could be a significant amount of overlap, (not even bringing up the left vs. right scenario). Now just wait a minute, last time I noticed I haven't got both left and right heads. :-)

 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 13:40:11
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Norman:

Aiming them at my ears is still too much Toe-In. Effectively what you get with too much Toe-In is smearing of the centerstage, as well as the width of the soundstage overall. A lot depends on how far you sit away from them as well that determines the set up,

This stuff is pretty obvious after the trial and errors. The problem is, Magnepan speakers sound good even when set up incorrectly, sound blissful when set up right!

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 15:32:57
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
I use the Limage/HK setup and in this setup the speakers fire straight ahead. If you're room is suitable try this. Do a search for Maggie limage setup
Alan

 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 15:36:45
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Alan:

The limage was a starting point, however the rule of 3rds was the setup that sounded the best for my room in the end. That and fake ficus' to deflect/diffuse the 1st wave reflections.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 18:25:46
Perhaps the characteristics of a given listening room enter into any consideration. Would the optimal amount of toe-in for a given Maggie be the same in a relatively 'live' vs. a 'dead' room? I don't presume to know the answer, however in my case I sense getting the best results by aiming the Left and Right T/M panels of a Tympani IV-A towards my corresponding ears. Should I make drastic changes in my seating distance to the speakers, I might then have to make adjustments in the toe-in. I think my preference lies in adjusting my speakers sound as if they were some giant pair of headphones. Doesn't that max out the apparent separation between channels?

 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 18:43:58
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Funny thing, the center of the soundstage actually became cleaner and the separation disappeared into a proper soundstage. Absolutely differences between a lively and dead room. In my case, a lively room which was calmed by ficus trees behind the panels and front walls to diffuse the 1st wave reflection. Doing this makes my humble sized room sound very spacious.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 5, 2015 at 19:56:50
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
Glad you got a setup that works for you. Limage is very room dependent
Alan

 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 6, 2015 at 04:52:53
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Alan:

There are numerous setup systems for Mangnepan's and most will give you positive results.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 6, 2015 at 07:32:03
Leaving out many of the usual considerations of speaker placement and toe-in, there might be a little more to it than that. Of course it's an entirely different experience but during headphone listening, during which there's obviously complete separation, center fill can be pretty clean. So some of it at least can be in a 'listener's head'. I attempt placing my Tympani IV-A T/M panels to also yield maximum separation and the experience produced in many ways resembles listening to a giant pair of headphones and the center fill is also clean. I do aim the Left T/M panel to direct sound to my Left ear, etc. An interesting side note to this is that I'm able to insert a Carver C9 Hologram into the signal chain whose purpose is to cancel out Left Channel sound which arrives in the left ear (and similarly for the right ear. As is well known, when speakers are optimally placed and their distances to the listener's ears carefully measured the soundstage becomes enormous, not only does it extend beyond the edges of many speakers, some claim that it envelops them, extending around the back of their heads.

You can loop up the thread in the Planar Asylum: "Help Bob Carver is planning to steal our Maggies!" (in which 'Josh358' wrote it's (the C-9s), effect is like being a horse and having your blinders removed).

 

RE: Too Much Toe-In!, posted on July 6, 2015 at 11:01:23
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
I absolutely agree with you
Alan

 

My system, posted on July 7, 2015 at 14:22:13
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002



I used to us my mmg's tweeter out at the way you are now. Now I have spread the speakers out so the inside edges and my head form a 7 foot equilateral triangle and the speakers are toed in a radical 45 degrees - tweeters in. The centers seat image seems a little further back - I use a no high frequency eq (I use to roll off the MMG's about 3dB in the original positions).

The huge benefit is the two side chairs where the center mono position is locked in the middle - you don't hear the sound from the near speaker. The right seat is only 3 feet from the nearest edge of the near speaker and the opposite speaker is face on the right seated person.

Ekornes Stressless Seating
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Carver Hologram, posted on July 8, 2015 at 12:01:37
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
Interesting you mention this. one of the settings of my AVR includes a mode similar to Carver's SHG. On some recordings the evvect is phominal - in many recordings it becomes obvious the producers/engineers of the recording added their own "imaging" effects and the playback of the result is way overdone - almost like playing with your left and right speakers out of phase.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

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